Europa-List Digest Archive

Wed 12/18/13


Total Messages Posted: 9



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:44 AM - Using French land as an airfield? (gtagr)
     2. 04:27 AM - Re: Using French land as an airfield? (David Joyce)
     3. 04:45 AM - Re: Using French land as an airfield? (Clives email)
     4. 08:00 AM - Re: Using French land as an airfield? (jonathanmilbank)
     5. 08:27 AM - Re: Re: Using French land as an airfield? (Peter Zutrauen)
     6. 08:48 AM - Re: Using French land as an airfield? (James Kelly)
     7. 03:53 PM - Static in fuel system (Andrew Sarangan)
     8. 05:06 PM - Re: Static in fuel system (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     9. 06:58 PM - Re: Static in fuel system (Andrew Sarangan)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:44:29 AM PST US
    Subject: Using French land as an airfield?
    From: "gtagr" <clive.maf@googlemail.com>
    Friends, I've an ambition to buy land in France and build a house. In the UK we have a '30-day rule' that says you can use any land you own for any use (including an airfield) providing you use it for not more than 30 days a year for that purpose. If you do, you'd need planning permission - which would be tortuous and in the case of an airfield application, almost certainly unsuccessful. What are the rules in France for turning land you own into an airstrip? Could our French colleagues let us know? Perhaps there is some official route to take? (PS, I'm aware of the airpark schemes in France but don't want to go that route due to annual cost) ? Regards, Clive Sutton Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415810#415810


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:27:57 AM PST US
    From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
    Subject: Re: Using French land as an airfield?
    Clive, It has no relevance to your query, but I thought the UK rule was something like you can land a plane in a farmer's field for up to 30 times in any month without needing to have planning permission as an airfield. Regards, David On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 03:43:40 -0800 "gtagr" <clive.maf@googlemail.com> wrote: ><clive.maf@googlemail.com> > >Friends, > > I've an ambition to buy land in France and build a >house. > > In the UK we have a '30-day rule' that says you can use >any land you own for any use (including an airfield) >providing you use it for not more than 30 days a year for >that purpose. If you do, you'd need planning permission >- which would be tortuous and in the case of an airfield >application, almost certainly unsuccessful. > > What are the rules in France for turning land you own >into an airstrip? > > Could our French colleagues let us know? Perhaps there >is some official route to take? > > (PS, I'm aware of the airpark schemes in France but >don't want to go that route due to annual cost) > > ? > > Regards, > > > Clive Sutton > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415810#415810 > > > > > > > >Admin. >Un/Subscription, >Forums! > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:45:25 AM PST US
    From: "Clives email" <clive.maf@googlemail.com>
    Subject: Using French land as an airfield?
    Hi David, I hope all well and Happy Christmas Yes, maybe my wording could be better; As I understand it, as a UK landowner you can use (land your a/c) your own land for 30 (specifically 28 days) days/yr without getting planning permission. If a farmer grants permissions for that to you (or as a flying Farmer uses it himself), no need for planning permission. More than 30 days and you need a planning application - and you can guess how likely getting that granted that is going to be . . . More here; http://www.uklanddirectory.org.uk/land-usage.asp regards, Clive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce Sent: 18 December 2013 12:27 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Using French land as an airfield? --> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> Clive, It has no relevance to your query, but I thought the UK rule was something like you can land a plane in a farmer's field for up to 30 times in any month without needing to have planning permission as an airfield. Regards, David On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 03:43:40 -0800 "gtagr" <clive.maf@googlemail.com> wrote: ><clive.maf@googlemail.com> > >Friends, > > I've an ambition to buy land in France and build a house. > > In the UK we have a '30-day rule' that says you can use any land you >own for any use (including an airfield) providing you use it for not >more than 30 days a year for that purpose. If you do, you'd need >planning permission >- which would be tortuous and in the case of an airfield application, >almost certainly unsuccessful. > > What are the rules in France for turning land you own into an >airstrip? > > Could our French colleagues let us know? Perhaps there is some >official route to take? > > (PS, I'm aware of the airpark schemes in France but don't want to go >that route due to annual cost) > > ? > > Regards, > > > Clive Sutton > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415810#415810 > > > > > > > >Admin. >Un/Subscription, >Forums! > > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:00:31 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Using French land as an airfield?
    From: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>
    "As I understand it, as a UK landowner you can use (land your a/c) your own land for 30 (specifically 28 days) days/yr without getting planning permission. If a farmer grants permissions for that to you (or as a flying Farmer uses it himself), no need for planning permission. More than 30 days and you need a planning application - and you can guess how likely getting that granted that is going to be . . ." In the UK, if the landowner keeps a log of all aircraft movements (his own and others) for 10 years and the local council doesn't get complaints during that period, the landowner can then apply for change of land use. The council can't refuse, but of course different (probably higher) rates will apply. On each of the 28 days throughout any year, there can be many aircraft take-offs and landings involving many different aircraft, but each such day of multiple movements would still only count as one day. Better have friendly neighbours, though. Sorry, I can't help with France. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415820#415820


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:27:03 AM PST US
    From: Peter Zutrauen <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
    Subject: Re: Using French land as an airfield?
    Sounds like (thanks to a recent Federal supreme court decision) that landowners here in Canada have it very good: All one needs to to do is land a plane on your field, and voila! you have an instant unregistered aerodrome which is regulated under Federal law - and the local municipality can't do a darn thing about it (assuming your field approaches does not violate minimums over populated areas). The only recourse they have is to tax it as a commercial enterprise if they can justify the classification. Now..... I just need to win the lottery so I can afford to purchase my 100acres ;-) Cheers, Pete A239 On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:59 AM, jonathanmilbank <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>wrote: > jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk> > > "As I understand it, as a UK landowner you can use (land your a/c) your > own land for 30 (specifically 28 days) days/yr without getting planning > permission. If a farmer grants permissions for that to you (or as a flying > Farmer uses it himself), no need for planning permission. More than 30 days > and you need a planning application - and you can guess how likely getting > that granted that is going to be . . ." > > In the UK, if the landowner keeps a log of all aircraft movements (his own > and others) for 10 years and the local council doesn't get complaints > during that period, the landowner can then apply for change of land use. > The council can't refuse, but of course different (probably higher) rates > will apply. > > On each of the 28 days throughout any year, there can be many aircraft > take-offs and landings involving many different aircraft, but each such day > of multiple movements would still only count as one day. Better have > friendly neighbours, though. > > Sorry, I can't help with France. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415820#415820 > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:48:11 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Using French land as an airfield?
    From: James Kelly <europajimkelly@gmail.com>
    Hi Clive, I lived in Brittany for 10 years my experience is such that the planning permission for almost anything is more relaxed than here in the U.K. Tip, introduce yourself to the local Maire and keep him/her on your social list and you can't go wrong. Best wishes Jim G-BWEG On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Clives email <clive.maf@googlemail.com>wrote: > clive.maf@googlemail.com> > > Hi David, > > I hope all well and Happy Christmas > > Yes, maybe my wording could be better; As I understand it, as a UK > landowner you can use (land your a/c) your own land for 30 (specifically 28 > days) days/yr without getting planning permission. If a farmer grants > permissions for that to you (or as a flying Farmer uses it himself), no > need for planning permission. More than 30 days and you need a planning > application - and you can guess how likely getting that granted that is > going to be . . . > > More here; > http://www.uklanddirectory.org.uk/land-usage.asp > > regards, > > > Clive. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce > Sent: 18 December 2013 12:27 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Using French land as an airfield? > > --> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> > > Clive, It has no relevance to your query, but I thought the UK rule was > something like you can land a plane in a farmer's field for up to 30 times > in any month without needing to have planning permission as an airfield. > Regards, David > > > On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 03:43:40 -0800 > "gtagr" <clive.maf@googlemail.com> wrote: > ><clive.maf@googlemail.com> > > > >Friends, > > > > I've an ambition to buy land in France and build a house. > > > > In the UK we have a '30-day rule' that says you can use any land you > >own for any use (including an airfield) providing you use it for not > >more than 30 days a year for that purpose. If you do, you'd need > >planning permission > >- which would be tortuous and in the case of an airfield application, > >almost certainly unsuccessful. > > > > What are the rules in France for turning land you own into an > >airstrip? > > > > Could our French colleagues let us know? Perhaps there is some > >official route to take? > > > > (PS, I'm aware of the airpark schemes in France but don't want to go > >that route due to annual cost) > > > > ? > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Clive Sutton > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415810#415810 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Admin. > >Un/Subscription, > >Forums! > > > > > > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:53:58 PM PST US
    From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com>
    Subject: Static in fuel system
    I hate to revive this discussion once again, but I am still trying to figure out the static discharge mechanisms in the Europa fuel system. I recall at least two Europas that were consumed by static induced fuel fire. Was there any final report regarding these incidents, so that we can learn from these? Europa's fuel tank and the cobra inlet are nonconductive plastic. Even the filler neck is non conductive (at first I thought this was aluminum, but I verified that it was actually an insulator). I suppose a brush-like discharge is possible from highly charged nonconductive surfaces, but I doubt we can pour fuel into this aircraft at rates that will induces such high charge densities. The other possibility is a discharge between the person and the fuselage due to charge generated during flight due to air flow. But again, this would be more like a brush discharge than a spark, and would have to occur immediately after landing. Most of the static discharge accidents I have read about have occurred when the person touches the metal fuel nozzle. I guess my question is, since there are no metal parts in the Europa fueling system upstream of the tank, where does this spark occur to cause ignition?


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:06:59 PM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Static in fuel system
    I knew the owners of one of the fire victims (aircraft wsant written off) I think the static discharge was=0Abetween the metal tank breather on top of the Classic feselage and the metal funnel used to fill the tank.=0AThe air rushes up the breather plastic tube and carries droplets in it picking up static charge on the way.=0AThe discharge near the end of the filling cycle was to the metal funnel, earthed by the man's hand.=0AIt was a dry hot day and aircraft had flown two hours.=0AI always recommend breath tube is bigg er, 3/8" aluminum and grounded. Touching it with a hand will help.=0AGraham =0AThe tank can be filled quicker with the bigger breather.=0AFor the XS br eather goes into the top of the cobra with a separate breather higher up, f uel splatter goes=0Aback into the tank.=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________ ________=0A From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com>=0ATo: Europa List < europa-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Wednesday, 18 December 2013, 23:52=0ASu bject: Europa-List: Static in fuel system=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com>=0A=0AI hate to revive this discussion once again, but I am still trying to=0Afigure out the static di scharge mechanisms in the Europa fuel system.=0AI recall at least two Europ as that were consumed by static induced=0Afuel fire. Was there any final re port regarding these incidents, so=0Athat we can learn from these?=0A=0AEur opa's fuel tank and the cobra inlet are nonconductive plastic. Even=0Athe f iller neck is non conductive (at first I thought this was=0Aaluminum, but I verified that it was actually an insulator). I suppose=0Aa brush-like disc harge is possible from highly charged nonconductive=0Asurfaces, but I doubt we can pour fuel into this aircraft at rates=0Athat will induces such high charge densities.=0A=0AThe other possibility is a discharge between the pe rson and the=0Afuselage due to charge generated during flight due to air fl ow. But=0Aagain, this would be more like a brush discharge than a spark, an d=0Awould have to occur immediately after landing.=0A=0AMost of the static discharge accidents I have read about have occurred=0Awhen the person touch es the metal fuel nozzle.=0A=0AI guess my question is, since there are no m etal parts in the Europa=0Afueling system upstream of the tank, where does - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List =========================0A =====================


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:58:34 PM PST US
    From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Static in fuel system
    I see. I forgot about the stainless vent tube (I haven't got to that stage yet). Mine is an XS, and the vent still goes to the top of the fuselage. So if the that piece of metal tube is a weak link, why not just replace it with a rigid plastic tube? On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 7:59 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote: > I knew the owners of one of the fire victims (aircraft wsant written off) I > think the static discharge was > between the metal tank breather on top of the Classic feselage and the metal > funnel used to fill the tank. > The air rushes up the breather plastic tube and carries droplets in it > picking up static charge on the way. > The discharge near the end of the filling cycle was to the metal funnel, > earthed by the man's hand. > It was a dry hot day and aircraft had flown two hours. > I always recommend breath tube is bigger, 3/8" aluminum and grounded. > Touching it with a hand will help. > Graham > The tank can be filled quicker with the bigger breather. > For the XS breather goes into the top of the cobra with a separate breather > higher up, fuel splatter goes > back into the tank. > > ________________________________ > From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com> > To: Europa List <europa-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2013, 23:52 > Subject: Europa-List: Static in fuel system > > > I hate to revive this discussion once again, but I am still trying to > figure out the static discharge mechanisms in the Europa fuel system. > I recall at least two Europas that were consumed by static induced > fuel fire. Was there any final report regarding these incidents, so > that we can learn from these? > > Europa's fuel tank and the cobra inlet are nonconductive plastic. Even > the filler neck is non conductive (at first I thought this was > aluminum, but I verified that it was actually an insulator). I suppose > a brush-like discharge is possible from highly charged nonconductive > surfaces, but I doubt we can pour fuel into this aircraft at rates > that will induces such high charge densities. > > The other possibility is a discharge between the person and the > fuselage due to charge generated during flight due to air flow. But > again, this would be more like a brush discharge than a spark, and > would have to occur immediately after landing. > > Most of the static discharge accidents I have read about have occurred > when the person touches the metal fuel nozzle. > > I guess my question is, since there are no metal parts in the Europa > fueling system upstream of the tank, where does this spark; http: > -Mat Use ropa-List" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> > http://foru===================== > >




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