Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:06 AM - Re: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators (Greg Fuchs)
2. 01:37 AM - Plain Vanilla re ....Ducati rectifier/regulators (Tony Renshaw)
3. 01:53 AM - Re: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
4. 02:26 AM - Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk)
5. 02:35 AM - Re: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators (Greg Fuchs)
6. 02:37 AM - Re: Plain Vanilla re ....Ducati rectifier/regulators (Greg Fuchs)
7. 03:19 AM - Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators (Remi Guerner)
8. 04:59 AM - Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators (h&jeuropa)
9. 05:01 AM - Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective (Max Cointe (Free))
10. 05:07 AM - Flap cross tube (Frank Mycroft)
11. 08:11 AM - Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk)
12. 08:16 AM - Blue Mountain EFIS -Help! (David Joyce)
13. 09:59 AM - Re: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators (Tony Renshaw)
14. 10:41 AM - Re: Flap cross tube (Greg Fuchs)
15. 05:22 PM - Re: Plain Vanilla re ....Ducati rectifier/regulators (Kevin Klinefelter)
16. 06:48 PM - Re: Plain Vanilla re ....Ducati rectifier/regulators (Kevin Klinefelter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators |
Maybe not so fast about waste/dump conclusions..
When I built my motorcycle regulator about 5 years ago, I made it in the
shunt configuration, or the simple waste/dump. It still works great to this
day. It is very similar to the example in Nigel's document (which I plan to
go over in more detail about the Mosfet versions of regulators), except I
used an actual programmable shunt regulator IC to control the high-power
stage (a simple thing..it modeled like a zener with an amazing amount of
math to come up with the programming resistors, for what it is).
Unfortunately in this case, I didn't pay attention to the orientation of the
scr's in the Ducatti regulator.
When I went to prove to myself that they were shorting out the windings of
the generator to itself (similar to connecting the two outputs together), I
could only prove what Jan de Jong has been saying all along..that they
weren't. Thus, seems to not be a shunt configuration after all.
One downfall in this configuration..with no load on the generator, its AC
potential may have the ability to climb quite high. In hindsight, I guess
that was talked about in this thread ..30 volts...(42 volts peak?), but I
assumed probably incorrectly, that the measurement was made without a
regulator connected.
I wouldn't prefer those high voltages flying around...increasing the danger
of getting zapped and the dielectric needs of the components, but it is what
it is. In this configuration, the diode AND the scr are conducting at once,
to carry current to the load...increasing the needs on the heat sink.
Still, if the output diodes are a common failure mode, and with the cost of
replacements...it would be nice to see some of these things come back to
life. Stick it to the man..or the overpriced dealer, heehee.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators
>From that schematic, it is indeed a simple waste/dump regulator,with the
two failing diodes being there to prevent battery from reverse feeding
during the dumps. It is pretty silly that they undersized them for rated
alternator generating current capacity. "Certified". Wow.
Cheers,
Pete
> On Jan 21, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Bill Henderson <europa10@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
>
> As info.....
>
> I opened up one of the Rotax regulators a friend gave me after a failure.
The two diodes were bad and were open so paralleling them with external
diodes does seem to be a viable option. Relatively cheap for the cost of the
diodes and a heat sink. No modification to the existing regulator required.
Attached is the fix I obtained from another website. Just need to join the
diodes to the B and two G terminals.
>
> Just my two cents worth.....
>
> Bill
> A010 Classic Monowheel
> Still building.
>
>
>
>
>> On 1/21/2014 3:02 PM, Jan de Jong wrote:
>> --> <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
>>
>>
>> ad A:
>> Don't agree. The only stress would be somewhat higher reverse voltage.
The Ducati R/R is not a shunt regulator.
>>
>> ad B:
>> Agree, but the thyristors are more stressed than the diodes. They drop a
little more voltage and dissipate more heat.
>> On the other hand, the custom fitting of the diode pills could be more
uncertain than the standard fitting of the thyristors (TO220 I believe).
>>
>> Parallelling the diodes with external ones is possible. They would
require a heat sink. Are the failure statistics clear about the diodes?
>> I think it would be better to get an R/R without issues.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>> On 1/21/2014 6:30 PM, Greg Fuchs wrote:
>>> --> <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, since the generator is not a two-legged 'phi' connection (i.e.
>>> the midpoint of the generator coil connected to the ground of the
>>> system or vehicle, then 'dumping to ground' may not be the term to
>>> use after all. Yes, I think that is correct.
>>>
>>> Here are the two main failure modes of the Ducatti regulator as I see
it..
>>>
>>> A) If the aircraft has a very low load usage (i.e. no lights, no
>>> instruments, etc.), the scr's are stressed and 'may' fail
>>> eventually. If this happens, the Ducatti is unrecoverable.
>>>
>>> B) If the aircraft has a very high load usage (using up most of its
>>> 15-18 amps), the output diodes are stressed and probably will fail
>>> eventually, which is backed up by historical data gathering (they
>>> fail a lot at high loads per many forum users). The Ducatti would
>>> then be recoverable by placing 25 Amp or higher diodes on the
>>> external terminals as referenced earlier.
>>>
>>> Scenario (A) is unlikely, since everyone likes power-hungry
>>> instruments and the like, where scenario (B) is the most likely for the
same reason.
>>>
>>> Thus, if someone wants to 'beef up' their ducatti, then they have
>>> the option to place the external diodes. I guess it doesn't matter
>>> what kind, as long as they can withstand the current from the
>>> generator. They will either help the internal diodes survive almost
>>> forever, or take over for them when they fail (It depends on the
>>> turn-on points between the internal and external diodes).
>>>
>>> Jan, do you agree with this?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan de
>>> Jong
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 4:59 AM
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators
>>>
>>> Equally respectfully - "dumping to ground" is not dumping, but
>>> connection to the negative DC output terminal.
>>> I attach a little OpenOffice drawing that hopefully clarifies (I
>>> hope that works).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jan
>>>
>>>> On 1/20/2014 11:21 PM, Greg Fuchs wrote:
>>>> --> <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully, I believe that the circuit configuration that you are
>>>> thinking of is incorrect, Jan de Jong.
>>>>
>>>> The SCR's do EXACTLY 'dump' the AC output DIRECTLY to ground.
>>>> When one end of the thyristor connects to the alternating current
>>>> output of the coil, and the other end to ground...then that is all
>>>> they can do but short the AC output to ground. It is not acting as
>>>> a PWM-like device at all, simply a grounding device. Call it a
>>> direct-connect.
>>>> You mention heat. The direct-connect method is the best way to
>>>> deal with the heat. The forward voltage drop of the 'dumping'
>>>> device is low, and the current does not need to go through the
>>>> diodes at all, which are bypassed...hence your lowest heat output.
>>>>
>>>> Since the 'dumping device' connects the alternator output directly
>>>> to ground, without going through the diode, what is the power
dissipated?
>>>> While in the dumping mode, lets say the current to dump was 10
>>>> amps(I'll use your generously supplied information, so I don't have
>>>> to look up specs) it would be 1.1V * 10 amps. That's it. 11 watts.
>>>> That is much better than the 18 Watts in your configuration.
>>>>
>>>>> (
>>>>> a failure mode for the Ducati device is reportedly the loss of
>>>>> continuity
>>>> of a diode pill attachment through thermal >cycling; fitting
>>>> external parallel diodes has been proposed as a solution; replacing
>>>> the whole device seems more
>>>>> sensible
>>>>> )
>>>> Well, maybe so! However, if the failure mode is a loss in
>>>> continuity, that would mean the diodes are opening. That would also
>>>> mean that connecting the external diodes to the regulator would
>>>> bring it back to
>>> life!
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan de
>>>> Jong
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 7:40 AM
>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators
>>>>
>>>> --> <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
>>>>
>>>> Re two-phase bridge rectifier/regulator.
>>>> The 2 thyristors in the rectifier bridge do not short the AC input
>>>> or
>>> "dump"
>>>> anything.
>>>> On the contrary, they disconnect the DC output from the AC input
>>>> when the output voltage threatens to exceed the set voltage.
>>>> All output current passes through one branch of one diode and one
>>>> thyristor in series half the time and through the other identical
>>>> branch also half the time.
>>>> Heat development is proportional to the output current and the
>>>> voltage drop across a branch.
>>>> Voltage drops increase somewhat with current, so heat development
>>>> increases more than linearly with output current.
>>>> In the Ducati device the diode is reportedly a MR2510 pill
>>>> (typically 0.75V at 10A, 0.8V at 20A), the thyristor can be a
>>>> 2N6504 (typically 1.1V at 10A, 1.3V at 20A).
>>>> So at 10A the two branches of the bridge are each expected to
>>>> generate
>>>> 0.5 x (7.5 + 11) = 9.25W (total 18.5W) of heat.
>>>> And at 20A the two branches of the bridge are each expected to
>>>> generate
>>>> 0.5 x (16 + 26) = 21W (total 42W) of heat.
>>>>
>>>> (
>>>> a failure mode for the Ducati device is reportedly the loss of
>>>> continuity of a diode pill attachment through thermal cycling;
>>>> fitting external parallel diodes has been proposed as a solution;
>>>> replacing the whole device seems more sensible
>>>> )
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Jan de Jong
>
> <Rotax Regulator Fix.doc>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Plain Vanilla re ....Ducati rectifier/regulators |
Gidday,
I have attempted to read this with interest as my project develops closer to the
time when I might need to know this stuff, and it seems like some of you know
an awful lot. So, does anyone have any wise sage solutions for a newbie, whether
it is best to start with what I've already got, strapped to my boxed, zero
timed 914, or whether since it is already way out of warranty, replace the rectifier
now, and if so with what? I can justify buying another rectifier if it
would help in my current stage, construction I.e. No need for dedicated cooling
ducting, or minimisation etc.
thanks for any dumbed down ideas.
Tony Renshaw
Sent from my iPad
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators |
I haven't followed this thread much, but isn't the big capacitor essential
=0Afor the Ducatti system/ The big C prevents voltages from rising and=0Aac
ts as a dump/battery or has my memory tricked me again?=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy
@comcast.net>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, 22 Januar
y 2014, 8:04=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators=0A
mcast.net>=0A=0AMaybe not so fast about waste/dump conclusions..=0AWhen I b
uilt my motorcycle regulator about 5 years ago, I made it in the=0Ashunt co
nfiguration, or the simple waste/dump. It still works great to this=0Aday.
It is very similar to the example in Nigel's document (which I plan to=0Ago
over in more detail about the Mosfet versions of regulators), except I=0Au
sed an actual programmable shunt regulator IC to control the high-power=0As
tage (a simple thing..it modeled like a zener with an amazing amount of=0Am
ath to come up with the programming resistors, for what it is).=0A=0AUnfort
unately in this case, I didn't pay attention to the orientation of the=0Asc
r's in the Ducatti regulator.=0AWhen I went to prove to myself that they we
re shorting out the windings of=0Athe generator to itself (similar to conne
cting the two outputs together), I=0Acould only prove what Jan de Jong has
been saying all along..that they=0Aweren't. Thus, seems to not be a shunt c
onfiguration after all.=0A=0AOne downfall in this configuration..with no lo
ad on the generator, its AC=0Apotential may have the ability to climb quite
high. In hindsight, I guess=0Athat was talked about in this thread ..30 vo
lts...(42 volts peak?), but I=0Aassumed probably incorrectly, that the meas
urement was made without a=0Aregulator connected. =0AI wouldn't prefer thos
e high voltages flying around...increasing the danger=0Aof getting zapped a
nd the dielectric needs of the components, but it is what=0Ait is. In this
configuration, the diode AND the scr are conducting at once,=0Ato carry cur
rent to the load...increasing the needs on the heat sink.- =0A=0AStill, i
f the output diodes are a common failure mode, and with the cost of=0Arepla
cements...it would be nice to see some of these things come back to=0Alife.
Stick it to the man..or the overpriced dealer, heehee.=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Ori
ginal Message-----=0AFrom: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto
:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete=0ASent: Tuesday,
January 21, 2014 1:42 PM=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Eu
ropa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators=0A=0A--> Europa-List message pos
ted by: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>=0A=0A>From that schematic, it is indeed
a simple waste/dump regulator,with the=0Atwo failing diodes being there to
prevent battery from reverse feeding=0Aduring the dumps.- It is pretty s
illy that they undersized them for rated=0Aalternator generating current ca
pacity.- "Certified". Wow.=0A=0ACheers,=0APete=0A=0A> On Jan 21, 2014, at
4:12 PM, Bill Henderson <europa10@bellsouth.net>=0Awrote:=0A> =0A> As info
.....=0A> =0A> I opened up one of the Rotax regulators a friend gave me aft
er a failure.=0AThe two diodes were bad and were open so paralleling them w
ith external=0Adiodes does seem to be a viable option. Relatively cheap for
the cost of the=0Adiodes and a heat sink.- No modification to the existi
ng regulator required.=0AAttached is the fix I obtained from another websit
e.- Just need to join the=0Adiodes to the B and two G terminals.=0A> =0A>
Just my two cents worth.....=0A> =0A> Bill=0A> A010 Classic Monowheel=0A>
Still building.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>> On 1/21/2014 3:02 PM, Jan de Jong
e_jong@casema.nl>=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> ad A:=0A>> Don't agree. The only stress
would be somewhat higher reverse voltage.=0AThe Ducati R/R is not a shunt r
egulator.=0A>> =0A>> ad B:=0A>> Agree, but the thyristors are more stressed
than the diodes. They drop a=0Alittle more voltage and dissipate more heat
.=0A>> On the other hand, the custom fitting of the diode pills could be mo
re=0Auncertain than the standard fitting of the thyristors (TO220 I believe
).=0A>> =0A>> Parallelling the diodes with external ones is possible. They
would=0Arequire a heat sink. Are the failure statistics clear about the dio
des?=0A>> I think it would be better to get an R/R without issues.=0A>> =0A
>> Regards,=0A>> Jan=0A>> =0A>> =0A>>> On 1/21/2014 6:30 PM, Greg Fuchs wro
oryf.flyboy@comcast.net>=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> Well, since the generat
or is not a two-legged 'phi' connection (i.e. =0A>>> the midpoint of the ge
nerator coil connected to the ground of the =0A>>> system or vehicle, then
'dumping to ground' may not be the term to =0A>>> use after all. Yes, I thi
nk that is correct.=0A>>> =0A>>> Here are the two main failure modes of the
Ducatti regulator as I see=0Ait..=0A>>> =0A>>> A) If the aircraft has a ve
ry low load usage (i.e. no lights, no =0A>>> instruments, etc.), the scr's
are stressed and 'may' fail =0A>>> eventually. If this happens, the Ducatti
is unrecoverable.=0A>>> =0A>>> B) If the aircraft has a very high load usa
ge (using up most of its =0A>>> 15-18 amps), the output diodes are stressed
and probably will fail =0A>>> eventually, which is backed up by historical
data gathering (they =0A>>> fail a lot at high loads per many forum users)
. The Ducatti would =0A>>> then be recoverable by placing 25 Amp or higher
diodes on the =0A>>> external terminals as referenced earlier.=0A>>> =0A>>>
Scenario (A) is unlikely, since everyone likes power-hungry =0A>>> instrum
ents and the like, where scenario (B) is the most likely for the=0Asame rea
son.=0A>>> =0A>>> Thus, if someone wants to 'beef up' their ducatti, then t
hey have =0A>>> the option to place the external diodes. I guess it doesn't
matter =0A>>> what kind, as long as they can withstand the current from th
e =0A>>> generator. They will either help the internal diodes survive almos
t =0A>>> forever, or take over for them when they fail (It depends on the
=0A>>> turn-on points between the internal and external diodes).=0A>>> =0A>
>> Jan, do you agree with this?=0A>>> =0A>>> Best Regards,=0A>>> Greg=0A>>>
=0A>>> -----Original Message-----=0A>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@mat
ronics.com=0A>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Jan de =0A>>> Jong=0A>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 4:59 AM=0A>>> T
o: europa-list@matronics.com=0A>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rec
tifier/regulators=0A>>> =0A>>> Equally respectfully - "dumping to ground" i
s not dumping, but =0A>>> connection to the negative DC output terminal.=0A
>>> I attach a little OpenOffice drawing that hopefully clarifies (I =0A>>>
hope that works).=0A>>> =0A>>> Regards,=0A>>> Jan=0A>>> =0A>>>> On 1/20/20
reg Fuchs "=0A>>>> --> <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>=0A>>>> =0A>>>> Respect
fully, I believe that the circuit configuration that you are =0A>>>> thinki
ng of is incorrect, Jan de Jong.=0A>>>> =0A>>>> The SCR's do EXACTLY 'dump'
the AC output DIRECTLY to ground.=0A>>>> When one end of the thyristor con
nects to the alternating current =0A>>>> output of the coil, and the other
end to ground...then that is all =0A>>>> they can do but short the AC outpu
t to ground. It is not acting as =0A>>>> a PWM-like device at all, simply a
grounding device. Call it a=0A>>> direct-connect.=0A>>>>- You mention h
eat. The direct-connect method is the best way to =0A>>>> deal with the hea
t. The forward voltage drop of the 'dumping' =0A>>>> device is low, and the
current does not need to go through the =0A>>>> diodes at all, which are b
ypassed...hence your lowest heat output.=0A>>>> =0A>>>> Since the 'dumping
device' connects the alternator output directly =0A>>>> to ground, without
going through the diode, what is the power=0Adissipated?=0A>>>> While in th
e dumping mode, lets say the current to dump was 10 =0A>>>> amps(I'll use y
our generously supplied information, so I don't have =0A>>>> to look up spe
cs) it would be 1.1V * 10 amps. That's it.- 11 watts. =0A>>>> That is muc
h better than the 18 Watts in your configuration.=0A>>>> =0A>>>>> (=0A>>>>>
a failure mode for the Ducati device is reportedly the loss of =0A>>>>> co
ntinuity=0A>>>> of a diode pill attachment through thermal >cycling; fittin
g =0A>>>> external parallel diodes has been proposed as a solution; replaci
ng =0A>>>> the whole device seems more=0A>>>>> sensible=0A>>>>> )=0A>>>> We
ll, maybe so!- However, if the failure mode is a loss in =0A>>>> continui
ty, that would mean the diodes are opening. That would also =0A>>>> mean th
at connecting the external diodes to the regulator would =0A>>>> bring it b
ack to=0A>>> life!=0A>>>> Regards,=0A>>>> Greg=0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>
>> -----Original Message-----=0A>>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matroni
cs.com=0A>>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jan de =0A>>>> Jong=0A>>>> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 7:40 AM=0A>>>> To
: europa-list@matronics.com=0A>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rec
Jong =0A>>>> --> <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>=0A>>>> =0A>>>> Re two-phase bridge
rectifier/regulator.=0A>>>> The 2 thyristors in the rectifier bridge do no
t short the AC input =0A>>>> or=0A>>> "dump"=0A>>>> anything.=0A>>>> On the
contrary, they disconnect the DC output from the AC input =0A>>>> when the
output voltage threatens to exceed the set voltage.=0A>>>> All output curr
ent passes through one branch of one diode and one =0A>>>> thyristor in ser
ies half the time and through the other identical =0A>>>> branch also half
the time.=0A>>>> Heat development is proportional to the output current and
the =0A>>>> voltage drop across a branch.=0A>>>> Voltage drops increase so
mewhat with current, so heat development =0A>>>> increases more than linear
ly with output current.=0A>>>> In the Ducati device the diode is reportedly
a MR2510 pill =0A>>>> (typically 0.75V at 10A, 0.8V at 20A), the thyristor
can be a =0A>>>> 2N6504 (typically 1.1V at 10A, 1.3V at 20A).=0A>>>> So at
10A the two branches of the bridge are each expected to =0A>>>> generate
=0A>>>> 0.5 x- (7.5 + 11) = 9.25W (total 18.5W) of heat.=0A>>>> And at
20A the two branches of the bridge are each expected to =0A>>>> generate=0A
>>>> 0.5 x (16 + 26) = 21W (total 42W) of heat.=0A>>>> =0A>>>> (=0A>>>> a
failure mode for the Ducati device is reportedly the loss of =0A>>>> conti
nuity of a diode pill attachment through thermal cycling; =0A>>>> fitting e
xternal parallel diodes has been proposed as a solution; =0A>>>> replacing
the whole device seems more sensible=0A>>>> )=0A>>>> =0A>>>> Cheers,=0A>>>>
=============
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
David, My feeling is that the Ducati RR is under-designed for its task
and it is really a matter of where you site it under the cowl, that
decides it's fate. By good planning or just good luck, yours seems to
cool well and thus survives. If the Silent Hektik website is to be
believed (see below), the Ducati RR is being over-driven.
Nigel
/*The Ducati controller*//
//The original controller supplied by Ducati Energia is equipped with
semiconductors , which allow a brief loading of 25A at 14V .
Continuous loading of the semiconductor is limited under standard
conditions at 25 C to around 17A. but since the alternator can deliver
up to 20A, the original controller is overloaded even under optimal
conditions. This results in frequent failures. /
On 21/01/2014 22:15, David Joyce wrote:
> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Tim, I absolutely accept that it is not ideal and could cause more
> serious problems than simple lack of charge, but one benign failure in
> 12 years of flying is pretty close to acceptable reliability for me,
> and I enjoy gliding anyway!
> Happy Landings, David
>
>
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:31:56 +0000
> houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi David.
>>
>> One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several
>> modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just
>> stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
>> This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen
>> mid
>> channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage
>> DC or
>> AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a
>> real
>> hard time !
>>
>> In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke
>> and
>> the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only
>> slightly
>> changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to
>> become an LED.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally
>>> convinced me
>>> that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit.
>>> However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale
>>> price off
>>> anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I
>>> have had
>>> one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and
>>> Clacton,
>>> but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home
>>> with a
>>> bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's
>>> spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am
>>> prepared
>>> to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
>>> Regards, David
>>>
>>> On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
>>> "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an
>>>> increasing sense of Dj vu.
>>>> When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax
>>>> community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with
>>>> like
>>>> (at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
>>>>
>>>> Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles
>>>> used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series
>>>> engines,
>>>> permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR
>>>> rectifier/regulators. It may
>>>> come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and
>>>> reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have
>>>> at some
>>>> time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based
>>>> rectifier/regulators
>>>> failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries
>>>> and in
>>>> extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and
>>>> blowing up
>>>> ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest :-(
>>>>
>>>> Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and
>>>> requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
>>>> The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the
>>>> numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of
>>>> information and
>>>> advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and
>>>> practical
>>>> advice on how to convert.
>>>>
>>>> It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good
>>>> understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the
>>>> problem and
>>>> what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered
>>>> to be
>>>> the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
>>>> The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR
>>>> Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system
>>>> and the
>>>> second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
>>>>
>>>> It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market
>>>> Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
>>>>
>>>> Nigel
>>>>
>>>
>> ===========
>> ===========
>> ===========
>> ===========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators |
The capacitor is necessary and similar to the battery will act as a
stabilizer, but is not meant to prevent the voltage from rising. That is the
'dumping' we are talking about. Dumping voltage is not a function of the
capacitor.
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators
I haven't followed this thread much, but isn't the big capacitor essential
for the Ducatti system/ The big C prevents voltages from rising and
acts as a dump/battery or has my memory tricked me again?
Graham
_____
From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 January 2014, 8:04
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators
<gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
Maybe not so fast about waste/dump conclusions..
When I built my motorcycle regulator about 5 years ago, I made it in the
shunt configuration, or the simple waste/dump. It still works great to this
day. It is very similar to the example in Nigel's document (which I plan to
go over in more detail about the Mosfet versions of regulators), except I
used an actual programmable shunt regulator IC to control the high-power
stage (a simple thing..it modeled like a zener with an amazing amount of
math to come up with the programming resistors, for what it is).
Unfortunately in this case, I didn't pay attention to the orientation of the
scr's in the Ducatti regulator.
When I went to prove to myself that they were shorting out the windings of
the generator to itself (similar to connecting the two outputs together), I
could only prove what Jan de Jong has been saying all along..that they
weren't. Thus, seems to not be a shunt configuration after all.
One downfall in this configuration..with no load on the generator, its AC
potential may have the ability to climb quite high. In hindsight, I guess
that was talked about in this thread ..30 volts...(42 volts peak?), but I
assumed probably incorrectly, that the measurement was made without a
regulator connected.
I wouldn't prefer those high voltages flying around...increasing the danger
of getting zapped and the dielectric needs of the components, but it is what
it is. In this configuration, the diode AND the scr are conducting at once,
to carry current to the load...increasing the needs on the heat sink.
Still, if the output diodes are a common failure mode, and with the cost of
replacements...it would be nice to see some of these things come back to
life. Stick it to the man..or the overpriced dealer, heehee.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators
>From that schematic, it is indeed a simple waste/dump regulator,with the
two failing diodes being there to prevent battery from reverse feeding
during the dumps. It is pretty silly that they undersized them for rated
alternator generating current capacity. "Certified". Wow.
Cheers,
Pete
> On Jan 21, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Bill Henderson <europa10@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
>
> As info.....
>
> I opened up one of the Rotax regulators a friend gave me after a failure.
The two diodes were bad and were open so paralleling them with external
diodes does seem to be a viable option. Relatively cheap for the cost of the
diodes and a heat sink. No modification to the existing regulator required.
Attached is the fix I obtained from another website. Just need to join the
diodes to the B and two G terminals.
>
> Just my two cents worth.....
>
> Bill
> A010 Classic Monowheel
> Still building.
>
>
>
>
>> On 1/21/2014 3:02 PM, Jan de Jong wrote:
>> --> <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
>>
>>
>> ad A:
>> Don't agree. The only stress would be somewhat higher reverse voltage.
The Ducati R/R is not a shunt regulator.
>>
>> ad B:
>> Agree, but the thyristors are more stressed than the diodes. They drop a
little more voltage and dissipate more heat.
>> On the other hand, the custom fitting of the diode pills could be more
uncertain than the standard fitting of the thyristors (TO220 I believe).
>>
>> Parallelling the diodes with external ones is possible. They would
require a heat sink. Are the failure statistics clear about the diodes?
>> I think it would be better to get an R/R without issues.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>> On 1/21/2014 6:30 PM, Greg Fuchs wrote:
>>> --> <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, since the generator is not a two-legged 'phi' connection (i.e.
>>> the midpoint of the generator coil connected to the ground of the
>>> system or vehicle, then 'dumping to ground' may not be the term to
>>> use after all. Yes, I think that is correct.
>>>
>>> Here are the two main failure modes of the Ducatti regulator as I see
it..
>>>
>>> A) If the aircraft has a very low load usage (i.e. no lights, no
>>> instruments, etc.), the scr's are stressed and 'may' fail
>>> eventually. If this happens, the Ducatti is unrecoverable.
>>>
>>> B) If the aircraft has a very high load usage (using up most of its
>>> 15-18 amps), the output diodes are stressed and probably will fail
>>> eventually, which is backed up by historical data gathering (they
>>> fail a lot at high loads per many forum users). The Ducatti would
>>> then be recoverable by placing 25 Amp or higher diodes on the
>>> external terminals as referenced earlier.
>>>
>>> Scenario (A) is unlikely, since everyone likes power-hungry
>>> instruments and the like, where scenario (B) is the most likely for the
same reason.
>>>
>>> Thus, if someone wants to 'beef up' their ducatti, then they have
>>> the option to place the external diodes. I guess it doesn't matter
>>> what kind, as long as they can withstand the current from the
>>> generator. They will either help the internal diodes survive almost
>>> forever, or take over for them when they fail (It depends on the
>>> turn-on points between the internal and external diodes).
>>>
>>> Jan, do you agree with this?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan de
>>> Jong
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 4:59 AM
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators
>>>
>>> Equally respectfully - "dumping to ground" is not dumping, but
>>> connection to the negative DC output terminal.
>>> I attach a little OpenOffice drawing that hopefully clarifies (I
>>> hope that works).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jan
>>>
>>>> On 1/20/2014 11:21 PM, Greg Fuchs wrote:
>>>> --> <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully, I believe that the circuit configuration that you are
>>>> thinking of is incorrect, Jan de Jong.
>>>>
>>>> The SCR's do EXACTLY 'dump' the AC output DIRECTLY to ground.
>>>> When one end of the thyristor connects to the alternating current
>>>> output of the coil, and the other end to ground...then that is all
>>>> they can do but short the AC output to ground. It is not acting as
>>>> a PWM-like device at all, simply a grounding device. Call it a
>>> direct-connect.
>>>> You mention heat. The direct-connect method is the best way to
>>>> deal with the heat. The forward voltage drop of the 'dumping'
>>>> device is low, and the current does not need to go through the
>>>> diodes at all, which are bypassed...hence your lowest heat output.
>>>>
>>>> Since the 'dumping device' connects the alternator output directly
>>>> to ground, without going through the diode, what is the power
dissipated?
>>>> While in the dumping mode, lets say the current to dump was 10
>>>> amps(I'll use your generously supplied information, so I don't have
>>>> to look up specs) it would be 1.1V * 10 amps. That's it. 11 watts.
>>>> That is much better than the 18 Watts in your configuration.
>>>>
>>>>> (
>>>>> a failure mode for the Ducati device is reportedly the loss of
>>>>> continuity
>>>> of a diode pill attachment through thermal >cycling; fitting
>>>> external parallel diodes has been proposed as a solution; replacing
>>>> the whole device seems more
>>>>> sensible
>>>>> )
>>>> Well, maybe so! However, if the failure mode is a loss in
>>>> continuity, that would mean the diodes are opening. That would also
>>>> mean that connecting the external diodes to the regulator would
>>>> bring it back to
>>> life!
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan de
>>>> Jong
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 7:40 AM
>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators
>>>>
>>>> --> <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
>>>>
>>>> Re two-phase bridge rectifier/regulator.
>>>> The 2 thyristors in the rectifier bridge do not short the AC input
>>>> or
>>> "dump"
>>>> anything.
>>>> On the contrary, they disconnect the DC output from the AC input
>>>> when the output voltage threatens to exceed the set voltage.
>>>> All output current passes through one branch of one diode and one
>>>> thyristor in series half the time and through the other identical
>>>> branch also half the time.
>>>> Heat development is proportional to the output current and the
>>>> voltage drop across a branch.
>>>> Voltage drops increase somewhat with current, so heat development
>>>> increases more than linearly with output current.
>>>> In the Ducati device the diode is reportedly a MR2510 pill
>>>> (typically 0.75V at 10A, 0.8V at 20A), the thyristor can be a
>>>> 2N6504 (typically 1.1V at 10A, 1.3V at 20A).
>>>> So at 10A the two branches of the bridge are each expected to
>>>> generate
>>>> 0.5 x (7.5 + 11) = 9.25W (total 18.5W) of heat.
>>>> And at 20A the two branches of the bridge are each expected to
>>>> generate
>>>> 0.5 x (16 + 26) = 21W (total 42W) of heat.
>>>>
>>>> (
>>>> a failure mode for the Ducati device is reportedly the loss of
>>>> continuity of a diode pill attachment through thermal cycling;
>>>> fitting external parallel diodes has been proposed as a solution;
>>>> replacing the whole device seems more sensible
>>>> )
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Jan de Jong
>
> <Rotax Regulator =======================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Plain Vanilla re ....Ducati rectifier/regulators |
I plan to use the Ducatti..possibly with helper diodes...but defer to those
that have more time in the seat and have piped air to it...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:37 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Plain Vanilla re ....Ducati rectifier/regulators
--> <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
Gidday,
I have attempted to read this with interest as my project develops closer to
the time when I might need to know this stuff, and it seems like some of you
know an awful lot. So, does anyone have any wise sage solutions for a
newbie, whether it is best to start with what I've already got, strapped to
my boxed, zero timed 914, or whether since it is already way out of
warranty, replace the rectifier now, and if so with what? I can justify
buying another rectifier if it would help in my current stage, construction
I.e. No need for dedicated cooling ducting, or minimisation etc.
thanks for any dumbed down ideas.
Tony Renshaw
Sent from my iPad
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| Subject: | Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators |
Very interesting discussion on the regulator-rectifier. After my first Ducati regulator
failed at about 150 hours, I designed some simple installation improvements
in order to increase the reliability of the unit.
I believe the main problem is to dissipate the heat. On the Europa, the regulator
is bolted to a composite structure which cannot act as a heat sink. So it is
necessary to duct cold outside air to the unit fins. I use SCAT ducting to take
the air from the front of the cowling to a plenum riveted to the Ducati fins.
Another issue is grounding: the unit being bolted through a weak glassfiber/foam
sandwich structure, there is no way you can compress the ring terminal enough
to make a good ground connection. Now my ground wire is bolted to one of the
regulator fins using a separate bolt which can be torqued properly. See attached
picture.
Then there is the warning light which occasionally was giving false information
while the bus voltage was just right. I have since disconnected the L terminal
and installed a separate low/high voltage monitor (B&C).
The replacement Ducati regulator I installed more than ten years ago has now close
to 1000 hours. May be because I have been carrying a spare unit since the
original one failed?
Remi Guerner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417404#417404
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p8230007a_100.jpg
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators |
The problem with external diodes as mentioned above is that the heat sink they
mount to will be at battery voltage. A better solution is to use a bridge rectifier
so the diodes are insulated from the mounting package. Then the heat sink
will be electrically independent. Such a bridge is a Vishay 36MB120A ($8).
This is a 35 amp, 1200 volt device which is similar to the original Ducatti
diodes. I plan to install this Spring.
Jim Butcher
N241BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417406#417406
Message 9
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| Subject: | Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
Nigel,
I wasn=92t able to find an English version of the S-H website, is there
any
and where your comments on Ducati=92s comes from?
Max Cointe
<mailto:mcointe@free.fr> mcointe@free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de
nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 22 janvier 2014 11:26
=C0 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Re: Europa-List: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different
perspective
David, My feeling is that the Ducati RR is under-designed for its task
and
it is really a matter of where you site it under the cowl, that decides
it's
fate. By good planning or just good luck, yours seems to cool well and
thus
survives. If the Silent Hektik website is to be believed (see below),
the
Ducati RR is being over-driven.
Nigel
The Ducati controller
The original controller supplied by Ducati Energia is equipped with
semiconductors , which allow a brief loading of 25A at 14V .
Continuous loading of the semiconductor is limited under standard
conditions
at 25 =B0 C to around 17A. but since the alternator can deliver up to
20A, the
original controller is overloaded even under optimal conditions. This
results in frequent failures.
On 21/01/2014 22:15, David Joyce wrote:
<mailto:davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Tim, I absolutely accept that it is not ideal and could cause more
serious
problems than simple lack of charge, but one benign failure in 12 years
of
flying is pretty close to acceptable reliability for me, and I enjoy
gliding
anyway!
Happy Landings, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:31:56 +0000
houlihan <mailto:houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
<houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
Hi David.
One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it, several
modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it just
stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this happen
mid
channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high voltage DC
or
AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff a
real
hard time !
In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the Schicke
and
the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only
slightly
changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to
become an LED.
Tim
On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce
<mailto:davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
<davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally convinced
me
that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit.
However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale price
off
anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I have
had
one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and
Clacton,
but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way home
with a
bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's
spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am
prepared
to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
Regards, David
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
<mailto:nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk"
<mailto:nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
wrote:
I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an
increasing sense of D=E9j=E0 vu.
When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the Rotax
community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like with like
(at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles
used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series engines,
permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR rectifier/regulators. It
may
come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and
reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures have at
some
time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based rectifier/regulators
failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries and in
extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and blowing
up
ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest :-(
Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and
requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the
numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of information
and
advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and
practical
advice on how to convert.
It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good
understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the problem and
what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered to be
the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR
Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating system and
the
second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market
Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
Nigel
============
============
============
============
Message 10
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Hi Greg
My flap cross tube, including the inserts is 44 7/8". It is off a
classic Mono serial 72. The reason that I know this is because it is
sitting on my desk, and having been slightly bent I am just about to
order a new one. Now I will check with Europa to ensure that they send
me one of the same length. All this started when I left the runway into
very soft ground (a turnip patch - what we call swedes, or in Scotland
'neeps') and wrecked the prop. I didn't notice the problem until I
found that there was a tendency to fly right wing low and examination
showed that the port aileron was not retracting fully and this was
traced to the FL15 being bent back by about 1/4"at the end. I
straightened it by clamping in V-blocks and pulling (hard) on the other
end but found that, though straight, there was still a slight kink in
the tube on the inside of the former bend so decided to order a new one.
I now wonder if that is really necessary. What does anyone think?
Frank Mycroft G-BWYD
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different perspective |
Max,
There is no English version of the Silent Hektic website. The
information I quoted came from data I downloaded, translated and
archived some time ago. I've just been back onto their site and see that
they have updated it with many new products (lots more RRs, a tempting
fuel injection conversion for the 912 and a completely new three-phase
generator set) but the snippet of information I quoted is now missing.
If you want a copy of my archived copy, let me know off-list and I'll
forward it.
Nigel
On 22/01/2014 13:00, Max Cointe (Free) wrote:
>
> Nigel,
>
> I wasn't able to find an English version of the S-H website, is there
> any and where your comments on Ducati's comes from?
>
> MaxCointe
>
> mcointe@free.fr <mailto:mcointe@free.fr>
>
> F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
>
> Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
>
> F-PLDJ Dyn'Aro MCR 4S
>
> Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
>
> *De :*owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *De la part de*
> nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk
> *Envoy :* mercredi 22 janvier 2014 11:26
> * :* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Objet :* Re: Europa-List: Ducati rectifier/regulators ... a different
> perspective
>
> David, My feeling is that the Ducati RR is under-designed for its task
> and it is really a matter of where you site it under the cowl, that
> decides it's fate. By good planning or just good luck, yours seems to
> cool well and thus survives. If the Silent Hektik website is to be
> believed (see below), the Ducati RR is being over-driven.
>
> Nigel
>
>
> */The Ducati controller/*/
> //The original controller supplied by Ducati Energia is equipped with
> semiconductors , which allow a brief loading of 25A at 14V .
> Continuous loading of the semiconductor is limited under standard
> conditions at 25 C to around 17A. but since the alternator can
> deliver up to 20A, the original controller is overloaded even under
> optimal conditions. This results in frequent failures. /
>
>
> On 21/01/2014 22:15, David Joyce wrote:
>
> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> <mailto:davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Tim, I absolutely accept that it is not ideal and could cause more
> serious problems than simple lack of charge, but one benign
> failure in 12 years of flying is pretty close to acceptable
> reliability for me, and I enjoy gliding anyway!
> Happy Landings, David
>
>
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:31:56 +0000
> houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
> <mailto:houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi David.
>
> One thing to bear in mind is that there are, as I understand it,
> several
> modes of failure of the Ducatti unit the most benign being that it
> just
> stops charging the battery and feeding the services.
> This is as you describe and as I also suffered ( why does this
> happen mid
> channel?) but I believe it can fail and possibly allow high
> voltage DC or
> AC onto the bus giving your expensive radio and other clever stuff
> a real
> hard time !
>
> In the UK there is very little difference in cost between the
> Schicke and
> the Ducatti they are very similar in size and the wiring is only
> slightly
> changed , one wire not connected, and the generator fail light has to
> become an LED.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 21 January 2014 19:13, David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> <mailto:davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
> davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk <mailto:davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>>
>
>
> Nigel, Fascinating and impressively erudite. You have totally
> convinced me
> that the way all new builders should go is with a Mofset bit of kit.
> However my personal solution is to take the odd Ducatti at sale
> price off
> anyone not planning to fit them and fly with a spare! In 1000hrs I
> have had
> one failure. That was inconveniently 1/3 way between Holland and
> Clacton,
> but there was enough juice in the battery to get me all the way
> home with a
> bit of thoughtful systems management. I currently fly with Rowland's
> spurned new Ducatti in my spares department under pax seat, but am
> prepared
> to offer a modest price for another unwanted Ducatti!
> Regards, David
>
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:06:24 +0000
> "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <mailto:nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
> <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> <mailto:nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
> I have followed this discussion with great interest and with an
> increasing sense of Dj vu.
> When the issue of regulator/rectifier failures occur withing the
> Rotax
> community, the standard fix seems to be to simply replace like
> with like
> (at elevated Rotax pricing) and fly on until the next unit fails.
>
> Up until about five years ago, nearly all modern Japanese motorcycles
> used the same technology as that found on the Rotax 91x series
> engines,
> permanent-magnet generators controlled by SCR
> rectifier/regulators. It may
> come as some surprise that for an industry renowned for precision and
> reliability, nearly all of these major motorcycle manufactures
> have at some
> time, been plagued by problems with their SCR based
> rectifier/regulators
> failing and burning out alternators and wiring, cooking batteries
> and in
> extreme cases, squirting unregulated AC into the wiring loom and
> blowing up
> ECUs. It was just such a failure that "sparked" my interest :-(
>
> Known as "Shunt Regulators" the SCR technology runs extremely hot and
> requires more cooling air than modern styling and space allows.
> The solution was a move towards MOSFET controlled regulators and the
> numerous web-based one-make discussion groups were full of
> information and
> advice on the reasons for failure, the benefits of the change and
> practical
> advice on how to convert.
>
> It was by trawling these groups that I was able to build up a good
> understanding of how these R/Rs worked, what was causing the
> problem and
> what the potential solution might be. I compiled what I considered
> to be
> the best informed snippets of information into the attached document.
> The first half gives an overview of a typical design of an SCR
> Rectifier/Regulator for use on a permanent-magnet generating
> system and the
> second half discussed the relative merrits of SCR versus MOSFET.
>
> It would be interesting to know which technology the the after-market
> Schicker and Silent-Hektic R/Rs use.
>
> Nigel
>
> ===========
> ===========
> ===========
> ===========
>
>
> * * - The Matronics List Features Navigator to & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, -->http://www.matron=================== great content also available via the Web --> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>http://forums.matronics.comstyle='mso-spacerun:yes'> - style='mso-spacerun:yes'> Thank you for your generous style='mso-spacerun:yes'> -Matt Dralle, List style='mso-spacerun:yes'> -->http://www.matronics.com/c= <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
> * * <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
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>
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Blue Mountain EFIS -Help! |
Does anyone know of any on going set up able to service
Blue Mountain kit? My EFIS Lite G$ has given cracking
service, but alas fell off the bench today, landing on its
back and breaking both airline connectors. It is possible
I could replace the bits myself, but it would be
comforting to have someone who knew exactly what he is
doing on the job! Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators |
Hi Remi,
Thank you for a vanilla way of dealing with the problem.
Tony Renshaw
Sent from my iPad
> On 22 Jan 2014, at 3:18 am, "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner@orange.fr> wrote:
>
>
> Very interesting discussion on the regulator-rectifier. After my first Ducati
regulator failed at about 150 hours, I designed some simple installation improvements
in order to increase the reliability of the unit.
> I believe the main problem is to dissipate the heat. On the Europa, the regulator
is bolted to a composite structure which cannot act as a heat sink. So it
is necessary to duct cold outside air to the unit fins. I use SCAT ducting to
take the air from the front of the cowling to a plenum riveted to the Ducati
fins.
> Another issue is grounding: the unit being bolted through a weak glassfiber/foam
sandwich structure, there is no way you can compress the ring terminal enough
to make a good ground connection. Now my ground wire is bolted to one of
the regulator fins using a separate bolt which can be torqued properly. See attached
picture.
> Then there is the warning light which occasionally was giving false information
while the bus voltage was just right. I have since disconnected the L terminal
and installed a separate low/high voltage monitor (B&C).
> The replacement Ducati regulator I installed more than ten years ago has now
close to 1000 hours. May be because I have been carrying a spare unit since the
original one failed?
> Remi Guerner
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417404#417404
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p8230007a_100.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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Hi Frank!
It turned out that my cross-tube was certainly in the ball-park, but I
guess
all the combined dimensions between the tube, the flaps, etc. didn't
allow
it to quite reach all the way. For certain, that is a good idea to have
Europa measure the replacement, to verify it is at least as long as the
one
you have, and it can be cut down to size.
It's your touch=E9 on the line with regards to replacement. Not sure how
far
back the kink is after the re-bend, but maybe you can clamp the
non-kinked
side into the v-blocks, and slightly test-bend the tube on the kinked
side
(in the direction that the kink wants to bend the tube) and compare it
to
the non-kinked side. Not a permanent bend of course, just within the
spring
of the tube. If there is any loss of strength, the kinked side would
bend
easier. If it does, then I'd throw it out and go with new, because a
tight-fitting strengthening tube would never fit over the kink..and
certainly not on a bend.
Just my .02.
Greg
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank
Mycroft
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:48 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Flap cross tube
Hi Greg
My flap cross tube, including the inserts is 44 7/8". It is off a
classic
Mono serial 72. The reason that I know this is because it is sitting on
my
desk, and having been slightly bent I am just about to order a new one.
Now
I will check with Europa to ensure that they send me one of the same
length.
All this started when I left the runway into very soft ground (a turnip
patch - what we call swedes, or in Scotland 'neeps') and wrecked the
prop.
I didn't notice the problem until I found that there was a tendency to
fly
right wing low and examination showed that the port aileron was not
retracting fully and this was traced to the FL15 being bent back by
about
1/4"at the end. I straightened it by clamping in V-blocks and pulling
(hard) on the other end but found that, though straight, there was still
a
slight kink in the tube on the inside of the former bend so decided to
order
a new one. I now wonder if that is really necessary. What does anyone
think?
Frank Mycroft G-BWYD
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Plain Vanilla re ....Ducati rectifier/regulators |
In the 914 installation: I mounted the Ducati in the intake plenum on the passenger
footwell. Should stay pretty cool in there! So far so good at 560 hours...
Kevin
> On Jan 22, 2014, at 2:37 AM, "Greg Fuchs " <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> I plan to use the Ducatti..possibly with helper diodes...but defer to those
> that have more time in the seat and have piped air to it...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 1:37 AM
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Europa-List: Plain Vanilla re ....Ducati rectifier/regulators
>
> --> <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
>
> Gidday,
> I have attempted to read this with interest as my project develops closer to
> the time when I might need to know this stuff, and it seems like some of you
> know an awful lot. So, does anyone have any wise sage solutions for a
> newbie, whether it is best to start with what I've already got, strapped to
> my boxed, zero timed 914, or whether since it is already way out of
> warranty, replace the rectifier now, and if so with what? I can justify
> buying another rectifier if it would help in my current stage, construction
> I.e. No need for dedicated cooling ducting, or minimisation etc.
> thanks for any dumbed down ideas.
>
> Tony Renshaw
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Plain Vanilla re ....Ducati rectifier/regulators |
Tony,
Consider mounting your regulator in the intake plenum on the passenger footwell.
Cool air, and attached to aluminum sheet for additional heat sink. How's that
for dumbed down!
Kevin
> On Jan 22, 2014, at 1:36 AM, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Gidday,
> I have attempted to read this with interest as my project develops closer to
the time when I might need to know this stuff, and it seems like some of you know
an awful lot. So, does anyone have any wise sage solutions for a newbie, whether
it is best to start with what I've already got, strapped to my boxed, zero
timed 914, or whether since it is already way out of warranty, replace the
rectifier now, and if so with what? I can justify buying another rectifier if
it would help in my current stage, construction I.e. No need for dedicated cooling
ducting, or minimisation etc.
> thanks for any dumbed down ideas.
>
> Tony Renshaw
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
>
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