Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:50 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (David Joyce)
2. 07:56 AM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS -Help! (rampil)
3. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: Blue Mountain EFIS -Help! (David Joyce)
4. 11:00 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (Greg Fuchs)
5. 11:42 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (Paul McAllister)
6. 02:14 PM - Re: Re: Blue Mountain EFIS -Help! (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
7. 09:02 PM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (Bud Yerly)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
Greg, there is a bit of a philosophical issue here! Do you
want to include every possible bit of kit and duplicate
all important functions with considerable addition to your
overall weight, or do you want to build to the lowest
possible weight whilst including all vital functions.
Flying an overweight plane carries its own performance and
safety penalties which can possibly outweigh the marginal
safety gains of the extra kit. When it was possible to
find plane weights on the Europa website (hopefully soon
to be possible again!), it was noticeable that the weights
of 914 Europas varied from under 800lbs to well over
900lbs if my memory serves. That of course equates to a
load capacity for passengers & fuel etc of between 470+
lbs (fairly comfortable) and perhaps 350 lbs.( very thin
passengers or no fuel!). Admittedly in the US you get away
with more than 1270 MAUW, but only at the expense of
eroding performance and safety margins.
For what it is worth my standard 914 alternator
(&Ducatti regulator) with Single Odyssey battery (16
amp/hrs) has for 1000+ hrs coped perfectly well with
wobbly prop, EFIS, autopilot, GPS, twin Nav Com,
transponder, EMS and both electric fuel pumps (although of
course you only normally have one of them on as each is
capable of supplying more than full power fuel flow)
I would personally follow the build as light as
possble approach and have that little bit of extra
power/weight ratio to help you in the dodgy situations you
may possibly unintentionally find yourself in some time
down the line.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ (833 lbs)
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:54:17 -0800
"Greg Fuchs " <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net> wrote:
>>Perhaps in the situation above, it would be prudent for a
>>914 builder (914
> can draw 11 amps on its own with both pumps running) to
>consider a belt
> driven ??
>>alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the cowl front and
>>keep the Rotax as
> a backup in case of belt failure.
>
> Bud, or those that know,
> At some point, or future avionics upgrade, my ship will
>likely need the
> extra Watts.
> Would you care to supply a 'teaser' on the making of the
>cowl mod? I am
> still waiting for my FF package, so don't yet have a
>handle on how it
> integrates with the prop flange, but does the front of
>the cowl terminate
> just behind the prop flange, on the smaller-radius drive
>tube? Are the
> belt-driven alternator components in front of the cowl
>then, requiring the
> cowl front face to be opened up and added to? Is this
>considered an
> extensive change?
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On
>Behalf Of Bud Yerly
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:13 PM
> To: europa-list
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Ducati
>rectifier/regulators
>
>
>
> .....
> If you are an amp zealot, but still want an aux fuel
>pump, pitot heat, 100
> watt landing light, strobes, heavy draw radio (Garmin
>430 type), Aux Radio,
> Mode S transponder continuously working, autopilot,
>stereo high quality
> music system, external power plugs for our phones,
>I-pads and inflight video
> system, the Rotax charging system is not going to hack
>it.
>
> Perhaps in the situation above, it would be prudent for
>a 914 builder (914
> can draw 11 amps on its own with both pumps running) to
>consider a belt
> driven alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the cowl
>front and keep the
> Rotax as a backup in case of belt failure.
>
> If you build a 912S airplane with all LED lighting,
>Garmin 255 or Becker
> Com, Simple digital Transponder, Aux Boost, and maybe an
>autopilot for
> cruise only and a paper map, then the Rotax / Ducati
>should be fine. The
> GR6 or SH may be better and longer lasting to boot. In
>my opinion the Rotax
> system can't put out much more than 15 amps or so and as
>the current
> increases, the voltage output starts to diminish (at
>least it does in my
> poor old airplane) .
>
> Just my thoughts.
> Bud
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:40:25 +0100
>> From: jan_de_jong@casema.nl
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati
>>rectifier/regulators
>>
>><jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
>>
>> Re two-phase bridge rectifier/regulator.
>> The 2 thyristors in the rectifier bridge do not short
>>the AC input or
>> "dump" anything.
>> On the contrary, they disconnect the DC output from the
>>AC input when
>> the output voltage threatens to exceed the set voltage.
>> All output current passes through one branch of one
>>diode and one
>> thyristor in series half the time and through the other
>>identical branch
>> also half the time.
>> Heat development is proportional to the output current
>>and the voltage
>> drop across a branch.
>> Voltage drops increase somewhat with current, so heat
>>development
>> increases more than linearly with output current.
>> In the Ducati device the diode is reportedly a MR2510
>>pill (typically
>> 0.75V at 10A, 0.8V at 20A), the thyristor can be a
>>2N6504 (typically
>> 1.1V at 10A, 1.3V at 20A).
>> So at 10A the two branches of the bridge are each
>>expected to generate
>> 0.5 x (7.5 + 11) = 9.25W (total 18.5W) of heat.
>> And at 20A the two branches of the bridge are each
>>expected to generate
>> 0.5 x (16 + 26) = 21W (total 42W) of heat.
>>
>> (
>> a failure mode for the Ducati device is reportedly the
>>loss of
>> continuity of a diode pill attachment through thermal
>>cycling; fitting
>> external parallel diodes has been proposed as a
>>solution; replacing the
>> whole device seems more sensible
>> )
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jan de Jong
>>
> &g======================
> &g======
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Blue Mountain EFIS -Help! |
Hi David,
Sorry to hear of your mishap.
I think your best bet might be a competent local avionics shop.
The former principal of BMA is off in Thailand at present working on
other things.
I have not ever opened my G4 to examine its internal structure, but with
any luck the white plastic quick-disconnect couplings are attached via
pliable tubing to the transducers.
A drop might have also damaged to MEMS sensors or even the circuit boards.
Does it still power up?
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417611#417611
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Blue Mountain EFIS -Help! |
Ira, Many thanks for your reply. When I found myself
without a professional Blue Mountain service source I took
the back off and found the offending pieces reasonably
easy to remove. I am waiting for what I hope are
equivalent replacement parts to arrive this week. Whether
its brains have been addled remains to be seen - if so I
guess I shall be rebuilding the port side of my panel as
well as the starboard! Regards, David, G-XSDJ
On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 07:55:43 -0800
"rampil" <ira.rampil@gmail.com> wrote:
><ira.rampil@gmail.com>
>
> Hi David,
>
> Sorry to hear of your mishap.
> I think your best bet might be a competent local
>avionics shop.
> The former principal of BMA is off in Thailand at
>present working on
> other things.
>
> I have not ever opened my G4 to examine its internal
>structure, but with
> any luck the white plastic quick-disconnect couplings
>are attached via
> pliable tubing to the transducers.
>
> A drop might have also damaged to MEMS sensors or even
>the circuit boards.
> Does it still power up?
>
> --------
> Ira N224XS
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417611#417611
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
David,
I agree in principle, about keeping it light....not planning on doing an
extra alternator at the moment, just information gathering in advance for
when the ship has been airborn awhile. For example, in case I ever want to
be IFR-capable...
Just keeping the options open. One can always place a small lightweight
alternator off the back of the crank as well without being too
jelly-bellied..some have done it per the forum.
Besides, in keeping it light now, I'll know what I'm missing later when it
tips the scales a bit more steeply... :)
It looks like your Rotax power source goes a long ways to power your stuff,
and your ship is not gadget-poor by any means. That is good news.
Thanks for the info.
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator
--> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Greg, there is a bit of a philosophical issue here! Do you want to include
every possible bit of kit and duplicate all important functions with
considerable addition to your overall weight, or do you want to build to the
lowest possible weight whilst including all vital functions.
Flying an overweight plane carries its own performance and safety penalties
which can possibly outweigh the marginal safety gains of the extra kit. When
it was possible to find plane weights on the Europa website (hopefully soon
to be possible again!), it was noticeable that the weights of 914 Europas
varied from under 800lbs to well over 900lbs if my memory serves. That of
course equates to a load capacity for passengers & fuel etc of between 470+
lbs (fairly comfortable) and perhaps 350 lbs.( very thin passengers or no
fuel!). Admittedly in the US you get away with more than 1270 MAUW, but only
at the expense of eroding performance and safety margins.
For what it is worth my standard 914 alternator (&Ducatti regulator)
with Single Odyssey battery (16
amp/hrs) has for 1000+ hrs coped perfectly well with wobbly prop, EFIS,
autopilot, GPS, twin Nav Com, transponder, EMS and both electric fuel pumps
(although of course you only normally have one of them on as each is capable
of supplying more than full power fuel flow)
I would personally follow the build as light as possble approach and
have that little bit of extra power/weight ratio to help you in the dodgy
situations you may possibly unintentionally find yourself in some time down
the line.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ (833 lbs)
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:54:17 -0800
"Greg Fuchs " <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net> wrote:
>>Perhaps in the situation above, it would be prudent for a
>>914 builder (914
> can draw 11 amps on its own with both pumps running) to consider a
>belt driven ??
>>alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the cowl front and keep the
>>Rotax as
> a backup in case of belt failure.
>
> Bud, or those that know,
> At some point, or future avionics upgrade, my ship will likely need
>the extra Watts.
> Would you care to supply a 'teaser' on the making of the cowl mod? I
>am still waiting for my FF package, so don't yet have a handle on how
>it integrates with the prop flange, but does the front of the cowl
>terminate just behind the prop flange, on the smaller-radius drive
>tube? Are the belt-driven alternator components in front of the cowl
>then, requiring the cowl front face to be opened up and added to? Is
>this considered an extensive change?
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:13 PM
> To: europa-list
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Ducati
>rectifier/regulators
>
>
>
> .....
> If you are an amp zealot, but still want an aux fuel
>pump, pitot heat, 100
> watt landing light, strobes, heavy draw radio (Garmin
>430 type), Aux Radio,
> Mode S transponder continuously working, autopilot,
>stereo high quality
> music system, external power plugs for our phones,
>I-pads and inflight video
> system, the Rotax charging system is not going to hack
>it.
>
> Perhaps in the situation above, it would be prudent for
>a 914 builder (914
> can draw 11 amps on its own with both pumps running) to
>consider a belt
> driven alternator of 40 amps, and simply redo the cowl
>front and keep the
> Rotax as a backup in case of belt failure.
>
> If you build a 912S airplane with all LED lighting,
>Garmin 255 or Becker
> Com, Simple digital Transponder, Aux Boost, and maybe an
>autopilot for
> cruise only and a paper map, then the Rotax / Ducati
>should be fine. The
> GR6 or SH may be better and longer lasting to boot. In
>my opinion the Rotax
> system can't put out much more than 15 amps or so and as
>the current
> increases, the voltage output starts to diminish (at
>least it does in my
> poor old airplane) .
>
> Just my thoughts.
> Bud
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 16:40:25 +0100
>> From: jan_de_jong@casema.nl
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Ducati
>>rectifier/regulators
>>
>><jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
>>
>> Re two-phase bridge rectifier/regulator.
>> The 2 thyristors in the rectifier bridge do not short
>>the AC input or
>> "dump" anything.
>> On the contrary, they disconnect the DC output from the
>>AC input when
>> the output voltage threatens to exceed the set voltage.
>> All output current passes through one branch of one
>>diode and one
>> thyristor in series half the time and through the other
>>identical branch
>> also half the time.
>> Heat development is proportional to the output current
>>and the voltage
>> drop across a branch.
>> Voltage drops increase somewhat with current, so heat
>>development
>> increases more than linearly with output current.
>> In the Ducati device the diode is reportedly a MR2510
>>pill (typically
>> 0.75V at 10A, 0.8V at 20A), the thyristor can be a
>>2N6504 (typically
>> 1.1V at 10A, 1.3V at 20A).
>> So at 10A the two branches of the bridge are each
>>expected to generate
>> 0.5 x (7.5 + 11) = 9.25W (total 18.5W) of heat.
>> And at 20A the two branches of the bridge are each
>>expected to generate
>> 0.5 x (16 + 26) = 21W (total 42W) of heat.
>>
>> (
>> a failure mode for the Ducati device is reportedly the
>>loss of
>> continuity of a diode pill attachment through thermal
>>cycling; fitting
>> external parallel diodes has been proposed as a
>>solution; replacing the
>> whole device seems more sensible
>> )
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jan de Jong
>>
> &g======================
> &g======
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
Greg,
I echo David's thoughts on this. With the right design choices it is
easy to stay well within the electrical capacity of the standard Rotax.
Modern avionics, EFIS, LED position lights & strobes do not draw much
current. Attached is the load analysis I did for my aircraft in 2004.
I have not updated it since then but LED strobes, landing lights and low
draw current contactors make it possible to have an even lower
electrical load during cruise.
My 914 XS + Airmaster came in at 860 lb. Over the years I have taken
weight out by removing the vacuum instrument system and small tweaks in
other area's but I sure wish I had paid much more attention to this
during the build.
My favorite comment from Burt Rutan was, "If you are thinking of putting
something on your airplane, first toss it in the air. If it doesn't stay
there by itself then don't put it on."
Cheers, Paul
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Blue Mountain EFIS -Help! |
Best of luck David=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
g.uk>=0A=0AIra, Many thanks for your reply. When I found myself without a p
rofessional Blue Mountain service source I took the back off and found the
offending pieces reasonably easy to remove. I am waiting for what I hope ar
e equivalent replacement parts to arrive this week. Whether its brains have
been addled remains to be seen - if so I guess I shall be rebuilding the p
ort side of my panel as well as the starboard! Regards, David, G-XSDJ
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
=0A
=0A
=0A
Greg=2C
I hope you don't get too carried away. Every ounce you add=2C or increase
to the frontal area=2C the more performance you loose.
To see an example of one of my cowl mods=2C look at Jerry Hope's 914 with
belt drive alternator. (www.customflightcreations.com click on accessories
and tips.) I cut the front of the cowl off=2C and Jerry and I made a floppy
glass cover then began the task of filling=2C smoothing=2C making a mirror
image for the other side and continuously checking for clearance for the b
elt and pulley. I made a mold of the front early on and it is rough. I sh
ould have cleaned it up. The belt drive alternator really does deliver the
amps.
Note in the photo=2C you can see the alternator is right up against the int
ake opening. It also extends the cowl forward about 1/8-1/4 inch because o
f the pulley.
I still believe my Europa simple VFR cruiser is the best idea.
All LEDs=2C (including the feeble Kuntzelman landing light at .6 amp)=2C no
pitot heat=2C all EFIS and light draw radio/transponder=2C keeps my amps i
n check. Even with all my toys running=2C I do not draw over 15 amps until
I key the mic button.
If I do go on to do a light IFR (health permitting) I'll add a Garming Nav
Com like the SL30=2C and purchase a simple pitot heat (like Angus Aviation/
Dynon). I'll add an Aux battery and an Alternator to the back of the gearb
ox to power the pitot heat and a proper landing light for night. (Aveo has
an LED unit=2C which is expensive=2C but bright. I still would prefer an
HID light=2C however check out the new 13000 Lumen flashlights by Trusfire.
)
The aux battery and alternator will most likely be similar to the B&Cs smal
l unit which will keep the aux battery charged but only have enough battery
life for about 30 minutes at idle for the HID/or LED light and supply the
pitot heat for just the time necessary to penetrate a thin deck. Just the r
amblings of an experimenter.Regards=2CBud
From: gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net
Subject: Europa-List: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
>Perhaps in the situation above=2C it =0A
would be prudent for a 914 builder (914 can draw 11 amps on its own with
=0A
both pumps running) to consider a belt driven ??=0A
>alternator of 40 amps=2C and simply redo the =0A
cowl front and keep the Rotax as a backup in case of belt =0A
failure.=0A
=0A
Bud=2C =0A
or those that know=2C=0A
At =0A
some point=2C or future avionics upgrade=2C my ship will likely need the ex
tra =0A
Watts.=0A
Would =0A
you care to supply a 'teaser' on the making of the cowl mod? I am still =0A
waiting for my FF package=2C so don't yet have a handle on how it integrate
s with =0A
the prop flange=2C but does the front of the cowl terminate just behind the
prop =0A
flange=2C on the smaller-radius drive tube? Are the belt-driven alternator
=0A
components in front of the cowl then=2C requiring the cowl front face to
=0A
be opened up and added to? Is this considered an extensive =0A
change?=0A
Regards=2C=0A
Greg=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com =0A
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud =0A
Yerly
Sent: Thursday=2C January 23=2C 2014 9:13 PM
europa-list
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Ducati =0A
rectifier/regulators
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
.....=0A
If you are an amp zealot=2C but still want an aux fuel =0A
pump=2C pitot heat=2C 100 watt landing light=2C strobes=2C heavy draw radio
=0A
(Garmin 430 type)=2C Aux Radio=2C Mode S transponder continuously working
=2C =0A
autopilot=2C stereo high quality music system=2C external power plugs for
=0A
our phones=2C I-pads and inflight video system=2C the Rotax charging =0A
system is not going to hack it.=0A
=0A
Perhaps in the situation above=2C it would be prudent for a 914 =0A
builder (914 can draw 11 amps on its own with both pumps running) to =0A
consider a belt driven alternator of 40 amps=2C and simply redo the cowl fr
ont and =0A
keep the Rotax as a backup in case of belt failure.=0A
=0A
If you build a 912S airplane with all LED lighting=2C Garmin 255 =0A
or Becker Com=2C Simple digital Transponder=2C Aux Boost=2C and maybe an au
topilot for =0A
cruise only and a paper map=2C then the Rotax / Ducati should be fine. =0A
The GR6 or SH may be better and longer lasting to boot. In my =0A
opinion the Rotax system can't put out much more than 15 amps or so and as
=0A
the current increases=2C the voltage output starts to diminish (at least it
does =0A
in my poor old airplane) .=0A
=0A
Just my thoughts.=0A
Bud
=0A
> Date: Mon=2C 20 Jan 2014 16:40:25 +0100
> From: =0A
jan_de_jong@casema.nl
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: =0A
Europa-List: Re: Ducati rectifier/regulators
>
> --> Europa-List =0A
message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
>
> Re =0A
two-phase bridge rectifier/regulator.
> The 2 thyristors in the rectifier =0A
bridge do not short the AC input or
> "dump" anything.
> On the =0A
contrary=2C they disconnect the DC output from the AC input when
> the =0A
output voltage threatens to exceed the set voltage.
> All output current =0A
passes through one branch of one diode and one
> thyristor in series half =0A
the time and through the other identical branch
> also half the =0A
time.
> Heat development is proportional to the output current and the =0A
voltage
> drop across a branch.
> Voltage drops increase somewhat =0A
with current=2C so heat development
> increases more than linearly with =0A
output current.
> In the Ducati device the diode is reportedly a MR2510 =0A
pill (typically
> 0.75V at 10A=2C 0.8V at 20A)=2C the thyristor can be a =0A
2N6504 (typically
> 1.1V at 10A=2C 1.3V at 20A).
> So at 10A the two =0A
branches of the bridge are each expected to generate
> 0.5 x (7.5 + 11) = =0A
9.25W (total 18.5W) of heat.
> And at 20A the two branches of the bridge =0A
are each expected to generate
> 0.5 x (16 + 26) = 21W (total 42W) of =0A
heat.
>
> (
> a failure mode for the Ducati device is =0A
reportedly the loss of
> continuity of a diode pill attachment through =0A
thermal cycling=3B fitting
> external parallel diodes has been proposed as =0A
a solution=3B replacing the
> whole device seems more sensible
> =0A
)
>
> Cheers=2C
> Jan de Jong
> =0A
&g======================
&g======
>
>
> =0A
=0A
=0A
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
=0A
=0A
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|