Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:40 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (David Joyce)
2. 02:55 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
3. 04:38 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (David Joyce)
4. 05:49 AM - The Sierra, Yosemite Valley (Kevin Klinefelter)
5. 06:07 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (Kevin Klinefelter)
6. 06:33 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (Peter Zutrauen)
7. 07:43 AM - Items For Sale (spcialeffects)
8. 08:44 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (Paul McAllister)
9. 08:49 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (Paul McAllister)
10. 08:52 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (Paul McAllister)
11. 09:34 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (David Joyce)
12. 09:47 AM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (Fred Klein)
13. 01:07 PM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator ()
14. 02:47 PM - Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator (Fred Klein)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
Graham, Are you sure? You usually are, but competition
gliders are produced with amazing attention to their
finish - gel coat rubbed down progressively to 2000 grit
and then polished with hard wax. We share their laminar
flow aerofoils which are said to be highly sensitive to
surface imperfections.
Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (with gel coat finish!)
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:53:13 +0000 (GMT)
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
> The lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A
>showroom finish must weigh 20 lbs
> at least and adds nothing to performance.
> Graham
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
>
> Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during
>the build, and
> still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad, IMO.
>
> I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as
>external LED lights and
> EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification
>of staying in the
> air when tossed there, I will now be adding
>helium-balloon ballast to the
> ship to compensate for it. :)
>
> Thanks again for the detail,
> Greg
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
Having re read what I said I take your point, oversimplification.Neverthele
ss it's surface imperfections=0Aie any bump or hollow more than a couple of
thou over a 2" length is too much. 2000=0Agrit finish is probably as good
as it needs for performance.=0ABird's wings intrigue me, there are incredib
ly efficient. I'd love to see a comparison of the fuel burn=0Aof an albatro
ss or an arctic tern with a Europa. Grey Lag goose might be interestin too.
How far do they fly without refueling?=0APoint being I guess boundary laye
r control is everything, vortex generators had an amazing effect on my Long
EZ,=0Alowered the stall by 9 kts and little effect at higher speeds. (didn
't get chance to measure it but the mod developer claims only 2kts=0Apenalt
y. =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Dav
id Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASen
t: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 9:39=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Cowl mods for
David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A=0AGraham, Are you sure?- You
usually are, but competition gliders are produced with amazing attention t
o their finish - gel coat rubbed down progressively to 2000 grit and then p
olished with hard wax. We share their laminar flow aerofoils which are said
to be highly sensitive to surface imperfections.=0A- Regards, David Joyc
e G-XSDJ (with gel coat finish!)=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:53:13 +0
000 (GMT)=0AGRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A> Th
e lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A showroom finish must weig
h 20 lbs=0A> at least and adds nothing to performance.=0A> Graham=0A> =0A>
=0A> =0A> =0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Greg Fuchs <grego
ryf.flyboy@comcast.net>=0A> =0A> Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the
weight during the build, and=0A> still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad
, IMO.=0A> =0A> I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as external L
ED lights and=0A> EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification o
f staying in the=0A> air when tossed there, I will now be adding helium-bal
loon ballast to the=0A> ship to compensate for it. :)=0A> =0A> Thanks again
=
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
Grahah, Aother point is that although Roger Targett
probably did spray 20 lbs of gel coat on my plane I am
certain that I wet & dry sanded more than half of that
off, and my 914 mono has ended up as one of the lighter
ones around (at 833lbs) in spite of a very full range of
kit. David
On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:54:38 +0000 (GMT)
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Having re read what I said I take your point,
>oversimplification.Nevertheless it's surface
>imperfections
> ie any bump or hollow more than a couple of thou over a
>2" length is too much. 2000
> grit finish is probably as good as it needs for
>performance.
> Bird's wings intrigue me, there are incredibly
>efficient. I'd love to see a comparison of the fuel burn
> of an albatross or an arctic tern with a Europa. Grey
>Lag goose might be interestin too. How far do they fly
>without refueling?
> Point being I guess boundary layer control is
>everything, vortex generators had an amazing effect on my
>Long EZ,
> lowered the stall by 9 kts and little effect at higher
>speeds. (didn't get chance to measure it but the mod
>developer claims only 2kts
> penalty.
> Graham
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 9:39
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowl mods for front belt
>driven alternator
>
>
><davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Graham, Are you sure? You usually are, but competition
>gliders are produced with amazing attention to their
>finish - gel coat rubbed down progressively to 2000 grit
>and then polished with hard wax. We share their laminar
>flow aerofoils which are said to be highly sensitive to
>surface imperfections.
> Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (with gel coat finish!)
>
>
>
> On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:53:13 +0000 (GMT)
> GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> The lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A
>>showroom finish must weigh 20 lbs
>> at least and adds nothing to performance.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
>>
>> Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during
>>the build, and
>> still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad, IMO.
>>
>> I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as
>>external LED lights and
>> EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification
>>of staying in the
>> air when tossed there, I will now be adding
>>helium-balloon ballast to the
>> ship to compensate for it. :)
>>
>> Thanks again=
Message 4
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| Subject: | The Sierra, Yosemite Valley |
Here is a snapshot I took the other day of Yosemite Valley from 13,500'
Drought conditions here. It should be a lot more white.
Sent from my iPhone
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
833 lbs is fantastic. My XS Mono/914/Airmaster came out weighing 50 lbs more! Thinking
about that lighter mono wheel and brake to shave off, how much was it?
Kevin
> On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:37 AM, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> Grahah, Aother point is that although Roger Targett probably did spray 20 lbs
of gel coat on my plane I am certain that I wet & dry sanded more than half of
that off, and my 914 mono has ended up as one of the lighter ones around (at
833lbs) in spite of a very full range of kit. David
>
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:54:38 +0000 (GMT)
> GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Having re read what I said I take your point, oversimplification.Nevertheless
it's surface imperfections
>> ie any bump or hollow more than a couple of thou over a 2" length is too much.
2000
>> grit finish is probably as good as it needs for performance.
>> Bird's wings intrigue me, there are incredibly efficient. I'd love to see a
comparison of the fuel burn
>> of an albatross or an arctic tern with a Europa. Grey Lag goose might be interestin
too. How far do they fly without refueling?
>> Point being I guess boundary layer control is everything, vortex generators
had an amazing effect on my Long EZ,
>> lowered the stall by 9 kts and little effect at higher speeds. (didn't get chance
to measure it but the mod developer claims only 2kts
>> penalty. Graham
>> ________________________________
>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 9:39
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator
>> Graham, Are you sure? You usually are, but competition gliders are produced
with amazing attention to their finish - gel coat rubbed down progressively
to 2000 grit and then polished with hard wax. We share their laminar flow aerofoils
which are said to be highly sensitive to surface imperfections.
>> Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (with gel coat finish!)
>> On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:53:13 +0000 (GMT)
>> GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> The lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A showroom finish must weigh
20 lbs
>>> at least and adds nothing to performance.
>>> Graham
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
>>> Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during the build, and
>>> still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad, IMO.
>>> I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as external LED lights and
>>> EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification of staying in the
>>> air when tossed there, I will now be adding helium-balloon ballast to the
>>> ship to compensate for it. :)
>>> Thanks again=
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
on the subject of weight savings, I can't help but notice how heavy the
mono swingarm is. I noticed in Germany one builder had put many lightening
holes in it (among many other mods). I had also wondered if indeed it was
over-designed and could use some strategically placed holes. Is that the
only builder who has lightened it? Has anyone done any math on that heavy
piece?
Cheers & thx,
Pete
A239
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Kevin Klinefelter <
klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com> wrote:
> klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com>
>
> 833 lbs is fantastic. My XS Mono/914/Airmaster came out weighing 50 lbs
> more! Thinking about that lighter mono wheel and brake to shave off, how
> much was it?
> Kevin
>
> > On Jan 28, 2014, at 4:37 AM, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> >
> >
> > Grahah, Aother point is that although Roger Targett probably did spray
> 20 lbs of gel coat on my plane I am certain that I wet & dry sanded more
> than half of that off, and my 914 mono has ended up as one of the lighter
> ones around (at 833lbs) in spite of a very full range of kit. David
> >
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:54:38 +0000 (GMT)
> > GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Having re read what I said I take your point,
> oversimplification.Nevertheless it's surface imperfections
> >> ie any bump or hollow more than a couple of thou over a 2" length is
> too much. 2000
> >> grit finish is probably as good as it needs for performance.
> >> Bird's wings intrigue me, there are incredibly efficient. I'd love to
> see a comparison of the fuel burn
> >> of an albatross or an arctic tern with a Europa. Grey Lag goose might
> be interestin too. How far do they fly without refueling?
> >> Point being I guess boundary layer control is everything, vortex
> generators had an amazing effect on my Long EZ,
> >> lowered the stall by 9 kts and little effect at higher speeds. (didn't
> get chance to measure it but the mod developer claims only 2kts
> >> penalty. Graham
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> >> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 9:39
> >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator
> davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> >> Graham, Are you sure? You usually are, but competition gliders are
> produced with amazing attention to their finish - gel coat rubbed down
> progressively to 2000 grit and then polished with hard wax. We share their
> laminar flow aerofoils which are said to be highly sensitive to surface
> imperfections.
> >> Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ (with gel coat finish!)
> >> On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 21:53:13 +0000 (GMT)
> >> GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>> The lightest Mono I know of was less than 750lbs. A showroom finish
> must weigh 20 lbs
> >>> at least and adds nothing to performance.
> >>> Graham
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
> >>> Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during the build, and
> >>> still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad, IMO.
> >>> I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as external LED lights
> and
> >>> EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification of staying in
> the
> >>> air when tossed there, I will now be adding helium-balloon ballast to
> the
> >>> ship to compensate for it. :)
> >>> Thanks again=
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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Hi all. Need some space in my workshop so selling my workbench if anyone is interested
plus found a new resin mixer. Open to offers. Many thanks Frank
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417769#417769
Attachments:
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
I did this using my mates Bridgeport Mill and it took about 700 grams out.
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator
on the subject of weight savings, I can't help but notice how heavy the mono
swingarm is. I noticed in Germany one builder had put many lightening holes
in it (among many other mods). I had also wondered if indeed it was
over-designed and could use some strategically placed holes. Is that the
only builder who has lightened it? Has anyone done any math on that heavy
piece?
Cheers & thx,
Pete
A239
Message 9
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| Subject: | Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
Greg, I am using an Odyssey 680.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 3:20 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator
--> <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
Hi Paul,
THANKS! Wow, that's quite a detailed load analysis. I can see why you needed
it. It seems that the available Mega-micro (heehee) Watts available from the
Rotax generator are being well used in most modes of flight. I especially
like the slight rest it gets during cruise, ensuring it can top off the
batteries....and possibly lowering the chance of a failure during this phase
of flight.
Looking at the spreadsheet, I can't help but wonder if there is a need (or
at least used to be..before the changes) for a slightly bigger battery
capacity to help handle the load when the plane isn't at high rpm? Of
course, experience is what matters. If you can recall, what battery size is
working for you?
One side note: Over a decade ago, in order to save a few $$, I replaced the
normal extra-capacity battery on my car (they are quite a bit larger than
the normal size), with one that was smaller...and it kept leaving me
stranded during the winter when running the accessories like fan, electric
window heaters, etc. Granted, I was running the car at idle for periods of
about a half hour, to try to keep warm. I replaced it back to the beefier
battery rather quickly, and all starting problems went away. Of course,
there is no penalty of bigger batteries in a ground-bound vehicle and only a
last resort in an airplane. :)
Hmm.. some HAVE paid more attention to the weight during the build, and
still end up bloated.. 860 is not too bad, IMO.
I'll be trying to use lower power items, such as external LED lights and
EFIS. Since none of them pass Burt Rutans qualification of staying in the
air when tossed there, I will now be adding helium-balloon ballast to the
ship to compensate for it. :)
Thanks again for the detail,
Greg
Message 10
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| Subject: | Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
David, 833 lb is very impressive. Do you have wet wings?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Klinefelter
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator
--> <klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com>
833 lbs is fantastic. My XS Mono/914/Airmaster came out weighing 50 lbs
more! Thinking about that lighter mono wheel and brake to shave off, how
much was it?
Kevin
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
Paul, Not sure what you mean, but presumably you are
talking about the classic fabricated wings - mine is the
standard XS mono with 914/ Woodcomp SR 3000W/ speed kit/
blue mountain EFIS/ garmin 495/ Flydat (now being replaced
by MGL EMS) Garmin SL 30/ Garmin Transponder,/Autopilot/
fuel flow meter + odds & ends. Odyssey 680 mounted
forward. I suppoe the Flydat or equivalent weighs much
less than a panel full of individual instruments, and
likewise a solid state EFIS rather than a vacuum system. I
tried very hard to build light by for instance making sure
that all added fibreglass wasnot overwet and all bolts
were cut to leave just 3 threads clear. All wiring was
done in wire gauge called for rather jan everything being
wired in a largish gauge.My upholstery is a pleasing
fabric system adapted from some Citroen seats in a scrap
car and I guess that saves several pounds over leather.
Ihave Alcantara + foam backing lining the cockpit from
seats forward, but just equivalent coloured paint in the
luggage compartment.
Apart from sanding most of it off, other
positives for a gel coat finish are that it needs no
undercaot and no UV blocking coat.
The plane initially weighed 831lbs befre I put
some lead in the tail to get the CoG just right.
Regards, David
On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:50:30 -0600
"Paul McAllister" <paul.the.aviator@gmail.com> wrote:
><paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>
>
> David, 833 lb is very impressive. Do you have wet
>wings?
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On
>Behalf Of Kevin
> Klinefelter
> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 7:34 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowl mods for front belt
>driven alternator
>
> --> <klinefelter.kevin@gmail.com>
>
> 833 lbs is fantastic. My XS Mono/914/Airmaster came out
>weighing 50 lbs
> more! Thinking about that lighter mono wheel and brake
>to shave off, how
> much was it?
> Kevin
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:32 AM, Peter Zutrauen wrote:
> on the subject of weight savings, I can't help but notice how heavy
the mono swingarm is. I noticed in Germany one builder had put many
lightening holes in it (among many other mods). I had also wondered if
indeed it was over-designed and could use some strategically placed
holes. Is that the only builder who has lightened it? Has anyone done
any math on that heavy piece?
Pete...here's a pix of Paul McCallister's swingarm...Fred
Message 13
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| Subject: | Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
I would urge caution on anyone thinking of removing material from the mono
swingarm to lighten it. I was up at Kirkbymoorside some years ago when Roger
Bull was asked about this, and he pointed out that the swing arm is a
component that can be very heavily loaded, especially in a crosswind
landing, and he did not recommend putting any lightening holes in it.
Any UK owner would be well advised to consult the LAA before taking any such
action, as this would definitely require modification action and not be
permitted simply with the approval of the local inspector.
Regards,
Mike
Dr Mike Gregory
Europa club safety officer
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 28 January 2014 17:47
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator
On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:32 AM, Peter Zutrauen wrote:
on the subject of weight savings, I can't help but notice how heavy the mono
swingarm is. I noticed in Germany one builder had put many lightening holes
in it (among many other mods). I had also wondered if indeed it was
over-designed and could use some strategically placed holes. Is that the
only builder who has lightened it? Has anyone done any math on that heavy
piece?
Pete...here's a pix of Paul McCallister's swingarm...Fred
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl mods for front belt driven alternator |
On Jan 28, 2014, at 5:34 AM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:
> 833 lbs is fantastic.
By any chance, might one of you XS builders have the weights for the
stock upper and lower cowls?
I'm looking for a data point in assessing my non-stock cowls...
thanks in advance,
Fred
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