Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:41 AM - Re: Re: Motorglider wings (Ian Cook)
2. 01:01 AM - Re: Re: Motorglider wings (Ian Cook)
3. 06:04 AM - Re: Re: Motorglider wings (David DeFord)
4. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: Motorglider wings (alan.twigg775@gmail.com)
5. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Motorglider wings (alan.twigg775@gmail.com)
6. 01:35 PM - What is this stuff called..........jigging material (Tony Renshaw)
7. 01:50 PM - XS mono w/short & long wings for sale (David DeFord)
8. 01:58 PM - Re: What is this stuff called..........jigging material (Steve Hagar)
9. 02:05 PM - Re: What is this stuff called..........jigging material (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us)
10. 02:20 PM - Re: Motorglider wings (djaflyact)
11. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Motorglider wings (Bud Yerly)
12. 10:36 PM - Re: Re: Motorglider wings (alan.twigg775@gmail.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Motorglider wings |
My actual solution to the difficult U/C retraction was to extend the
retraction lever handle (hand grip) so that you have a much firmer hand
hold, it was surprising just how much that minor mod helped to get over the
problem of loss of aerodynamic help from the flaps. My aircraft has flown
with both short and long wings since conversion with no obvious flap
problems/fouls, but I will have a much closer look next time I change wings.
Ian cook
G-CBHI
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David DeFord
Sent: 08 February 2014 23:46
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings
--> <deford.dave@gmail.com>
> Why would you need to change bungee tension between long and short
> wings as is hinted at from #6?
It isn't necessary to change the tension between long and short wings, but
the difference in retraction/extension force is significant. Particularly
at higher speeds, aerodynamic forces on the flaps push them toward the
retracted position, giving a reduction in retraction force (and an increase
in extension force) toward the "down" end of the cycle. After changing from
short wings to long, I am always surprised for the first few flights that I
have to push forward on the gear lever to start it moving after releasing it
from the latched-down gate. Of course, the difference in force is minimal
near the fully retracted position. A builder of a dedicated motorglider
might choose to optimize the bungee tension differently from an airplane
with short wings only, but we did not adjust the tension when we added the
long wings to our flying short-wing XS mono.
Dave DeFord
N135TD
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Motorglider wings |
I loaned my A/C to the Europa factory to do the modification and obtain the
first UK Permit to Fly just as the wing spar broke during structural
testing, it was therefore the first completed UK example post the wing
strengthen Modification. Europa were jointly in charge of developing the
Flight Test Programme, as agreed with the LAA. That is why I do not have
the full background to all of the engineering changes. I am just trying to
drive the completion of the modification programme through to get the Permit
to Fly and then hopefully to obtain the increase in all up mass. All this
started way back in September 2009. So it has been a real game of patients!
Ian
G-CBHI
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigoris
Sent: 09 February 2014 04:08
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings
--> <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hi Dave
Thx. for your reply about bungee tension.
It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings on
your XS Mono.
Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear post
mod 78 spars, airbrake cable and pitch cross tube?
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418393#418393
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Motorglider wings |
Ron,
We did switch back and forth between short and long wings, accumulating 90
hours on the long wings, before we heard about the Mod 78 structural
problems and quit using them.
The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller
spar tangs of Mod 78. Building according to the current instructions 15
years ago (modified shortly thereafter), our tank is set low enough that the
"shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs. I
heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang, and
then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars. We would
have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gain
enough clearance for the modified spars, which we are not prepared to do.
Since the long wings are of no use to us, we would be happy to sell them at
just about any price to someone who could use them (after applying Mod 78,
of course).
Dave DeFord
N135TD
> It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings
> on your XS Mono.
>
> Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear
> post mod 78 spars, airbrake cable and pitch cross tube?
>
> Ron Parigoris
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Motorglider wings |
Bonded wing fittings today, off to pray and drink beer. Will look on Tuesday.
Angles all seem ok.
Alan
Sent from my iPhone
> On 8 Feb 2014, at 21:22, Ian Cook <iancook_1@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
> Mine is a mono with retro fit MG wings but not aware of foul you
> describe. Still trying to find the details behind 17 myself.
>
> Ian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of h&jeuropa
> Sent: 08 February 2014 14:42
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings
>
>
> It might be useful, as you work with LAA, to have a US FAA approved example
> of how to handle the issue of Motorglider or Airplane.
>
> Our Airworthiness Certificate states "Amateur Built Aircraft/Motor Glider"
> and our Operating Limitations reference our program letter in which we
> stated that
>
> "This aircraft is designed to be operated in two configurations as follows:
> Aircraft Configuration, 27 ft wing span with flaps Motor Glider
> Configuration, 47.5 ft wing span with air brakes
>
> The pilot in command of this aircraft shall comply with the applicable
> sections of FAR Part 61 prior to operating the aircraft in any of the above
> referenced configurations."
>
>
> We appreciate seeing the letter from Francis Donaldson addressing concerns
> about switching wings - good things to think about as we proceed with our
> glider wings. Can anyone tell us what item 17 is about? One issue not
> mentioned is that the flap actuation rod on a monowheel interferes with the
> Mod 78 enhanced spar, maybe no one in the UK with a mono is retrofitting
> glider wings yet?
>
> Jim & Heather Butcher
> N241BW
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418353#418353
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <IMG_0273.JPG>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Motorglider wings |
Would have loved to speak one year ago having just completed my long wings.
Like Dave I have removed the aileron quick connects to fit countersunk bolts and
skim the edges otherwise although tight they fit, just.
Alan
Sent from my iPhone
> On 9 Feb 2014, at 14:03, "David DeFord" <deford.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ron,
>
> We did switch back and forth between short and long wings, accumulating 90
> hours on the long wings, before we heard about the Mod 78 structural
> problems and quit using them.
>
> The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller
> spar tangs of Mod 78. Building according to the current instructions 15
> years ago (modified shortly thereafter), our tank is set low enough that the
> "shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs. I
> heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang, and
> then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars. We would
> have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gain
> enough clearance for the modified spars, which we are not prepared to do.
> Since the long wings are of no use to us, we would be happy to sell them at
> just about any price to someone who could use them (after applying Mod 78,
> of course).
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
>
>> It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings
>> on your XS Mono.
>>
>> Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear
>> post mod 78 spars, airbrake cable and pitch cross tube?
>>
>> Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | What is this stuff called..........jigging material |
Gidday,
I saw this product recently and realise it has great jigging potential,
with variable positioning along its entire length. Does anyone know what
this product is and where to get it, as I have a couple more jigs to
make and would like to give it a go.
Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Aussie.
Message 7
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| Subject: | XS mono w/short & long wings for sale |
N135TD is a 2001 XS monowheel with 912S and Airmaster prop, 815 hours total
time. Long wings were added in 2008(?), along with other motorglider
accessories (Borgelt variometer, second battery, single-handed rigging
aids), accumulating 90 hours of flight time before being grounded, due to
the need to perform Mod 78. The position of the fuel tank in N135TD does
not allow installation of the modified long wings, and we are not prepared
to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to accommodate
the taller spar tangs of Mod 78.
All of the above is available for sale (including trailer and other
paraphernalia), either as a single package or as separate parts, noting that
the long wings must not be flown without first incorporating Mod 78. As
this could become a rather complex transaction, we are more interested in
keeping everything simple than in getting the best prices, and all offers
will be considered. Bud Yerly has given us very reasonable cost estimates
to do the modifications, which could yield a highly attractive combination
of total cost, simplicity, and confidence in the end result.
Please contact me for more details.
Dave DeFord
N135TD
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: What is this stuff called..........jigging material |
This stuff is the standard building block material in manufacturing plants used
to make the production stations on an assembly line. Many conveyors are also
built up of this aluminum extrusion. There are a multitude of companies that
make this stuff. Some of the popular brands in the US are Bosch, Parker, and
"80/20". The easiest place to get some of this stuff however is probably out
of the McMaster Carr catalog.
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa AZ
-----Original Message-----
>From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
>Sent: Feb 9, 2014 2:34 PM
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Europa-List: What is this stuff called..........jigging material
>
>Gidday,
>I saw this product recently and realise it has great jigging potential, with variable
positioning along its entire length. Does anyone know what this product
is and where to get it, as I have a couple more jigs to make and would like
to give it a go.
>Reg
>Tony Renshaw
>Sydney Aussie.
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: What is this stuff called..........jigging material |
Hi Tony
80-20
http://www.8020.net/
Look on E-Bay too.
Ron Parigoris
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Motorglider wings |
Lots of topics here. Mine is registered as an aircraft/motorglider. I don't intend
to use the short wings, so I don't have the issue with the flap rod. I will
be getting some glide performance numbers once we get back to good weather.
I found that at glide speed, the back of the wingtips had turbulent flow and there
was even reversed flow. I think they are drag at that point. I have removed
the outer portion of the tips that were not producing lift at glide speed. Still
not sure what to do about the wingtips.
My gear has the fairing and is very easy to operate. There is no flap rod attached
to it, of course.
With the 914 engine, i get about 150 knots TAS at 17,500 feet. It has easily made
the flight from Minden, NV to OshKosh in one day - including a 3 hours enroute
stop to time the arrival at OSH.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418429#418429
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Motorglider wings |
Just a note on sink rates in 419PL:
>From my 1000 miles in the MG (copies in Europa Flyer or my website www.cust
omflightcreations.com accessories and tips look under techniques).
Sink Rates observed: Engine off=2C prop feathered from one test flight:
90 Kts 400fpm
=0A
80Kts 300fpm
=0A
70 Kts 300 fpm
=0A
65 Kts 250 fpm
=0A
55 Kts 350 fpm trimmed nearly full aft.
Since Mod 78 makes the spar the same height from root spar to the tip of th
e spar=2C it should not be a major problem normally. Careful construction
only thickens the spar about 1/16 of an inch. I am sorry Dave=2C that your
tank was put in too low. If the interior is not hard to remove=2C conside
r moving the tank up. Yes its a mess but in a week it could be done. I kn
ow it is easy for me to say=2C as one mistake and the cost of a new tank ge
ts figured in makes the job a real knuckle biter.
I do not do tech support for Europa any longer=2C but if you come to Sun 'n
Fun (Site 33 this year) you can look over what we have done to ensure the
Mod 78 spar clears controls=2C includes a spar cup/support for rigging ease
=2C and I'll show how to remove the crosslink bolts and add countersunk scr
ews which preserves all the structure. If you can't make the show=2C then
email me off line and I'll send you what I have.
I supplied Europa with drawings on modifying the flap push rod to clear the
spars as that is a real problem on the mono. Trigear is a piece of cake.
Keep the spars thin and it will work.
The extra 100 pounds the glider wing adds can make the plane a single seat
only aircraft unless you built light. It does move right along if you go r
eally high=2C but below 10=2C000 MSL it is basically an economical 120 knot
bird. You can really stretch the range with the long wings.
Once the health becomes a concern=2C it is also quite nice to fly as a glid
er with no medical.
Regards=2C
Bud Yerly
> From: deford.dave@gmail.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings
> Date: Sun=2C 9 Feb 2014 06:03:17 -0800
>
>
> Ron=2C
>
> We did switch back and forth between short and long wings=2C accumulating
90
> hours on the long wings=2C before we heard about the Mod 78 structural
> problems and quit using them.
>
> The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller
> spar tangs of Mod 78. Building according to the current instructions 15
> years ago (modified shortly thereafter)=2C our tank is set low enough tha
t the
> "shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs. I
> heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang=2C
and
> then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars. We woul
d
> have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gain
> enough clearance for the modified spars=2C which we are not prepared to d
o.
> Since the long wings are of no use to us=2C we would be happy to sell the
m at
> just about any price to someone who could use them (after applying Mod 78
=2C
> of course).
>
> Dave DeFord
> N135TD
>
> > It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings
> > on your XS Mono.
> >
> > Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear
> > post mod 78 spars=2C airbrake cable and pitch cross tube?
> >
> > Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Motorglider wings |
Bud, details of post Mod 78 Spar cup(s) would be most welcome. Wing root fit
tings bonded on yesterday, I removed the aileron cranks as I need to trim th
em and have my countersunk bolts ready as Dave Anderson and you describe. Ne
xt job after removing wings and drilling + bolting the fittings is to counte
rsink the Aileron cranks. Any advice on doing this in sittu would be welcome
d . Regards
Alan Twigg
Sent from my iPhone
> On 10 Feb 2014, at 01:23, Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com> wrote:
>
> Just a note on sink rates in 419PL:
> =46rom my 1000 miles in the MG (copies in Europa Flyer or my website www.c
ustomflightcreations.com accessories and tips look under techniques).
> Sink Rates observed: Engine off, prop feathered from one test flight:
>
> 90 Kts 400fpm
>
> 80Kts 300fpm
>
> 70 Kts 300 fpm
>
> 65 Kts 250 fpm
>
> 55 Kts 350 fpm trimmed nearly full aft.
>
> Since Mod 78 makes the spar the same height from root spar to the tip of t
he spar, it should not be a major problem normally. Careful construction on
ly thickens the spar about 1/16 of an inch. I am sorry Dave, that your tank
was put in too low. If the interior is not hard to remove, consider moving
the tank up. Yes its a mess but in a week it could be done. I know it is e
asy for me to say, as one mistake and the cost of a new tank gets figured in
makes the job a real knuckle biter.
>
> I do not do tech support for Europa any longer, but if you come to Sun 'n
Fun (Site 33 this year) you can look over what we have done to ensure the Mo
d 78 spar clears controls, includes a spar cup/support for rigging ease, and
I'll show how to remove the crosslink bolts and add countersunk screws whic
h preserves all the structure. If you can't make the show, then email me of
f line and I'll send you what I have.
>
> I supplied Europa with drawings on modifying the flap push rod to clear th
e spars as that is a real problem on the mono. Trigear is a piece of cake.
Keep the spars thin and it will work.
>
> The extra 100 pounds the glider wing adds can make the plane a single seat
only aircraft unless you built light. It does move right along if you go r
eally high, but below 10,000 MSL it is basically an economical 120 knot bird
. You can really stretch the range with the long wings.
>
> Once the health becomes a concern, it is also quite nice to fly as a glide
r with no medical.
>
> Regards,
> Bud Yerly
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: deford.dave@gmail.com
> > To: europa-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings
> > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 06:03:17 -0800
> >
>
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > We did switch back and forth between short and long wings, accumulating 9
0
> > hours on the long wings, before we heard about the Mod 78 structural
> > problems and quit using them.
> >
> > The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller
> > spar tangs of Mod 78. Building according to the current instructions 15
> > years ago (modified shortly thereafter), our tank is set low enough that
the
> > "shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs. I
> > heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang, a
nd
> > then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars. We woul
d
> > have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gai
n
> > enough clearance for the modified spars, which we are not prepared to do
.
> > Since the long wings are of no use to us, we would be happy to sell them
at
> > just about any price to someone who could use them (after applying Mod 7
8,
> > of course).
> >
> > Dave DeFord
> > N135TD
> >
> > > It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings
> > > on your XS Mono.
> > >
> > > Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear
> > > post mod 78 spars, airbrake cable and pitch cross tube?
> > >
> > >========================
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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>
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