---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/15/14: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:32 AM - Re: FK fairings...............input requested. (Tony Renshaw) 2. 08:49 AM - trailer for tri-gear wanted (g-fizy) 3. 01:06 PM - Re: trailer for tri-gear wanted (richard) 4. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Motorglider wings (Bud Yerly) 5. 01:15 PM - Re: Re: Motorglider wings (Bud Yerly) 6. 08:29 PM - Battery Condition Indicator (Tony Renshaw) 7. 09:38 PM - Re: Battery Condition Indicator (Tim Ward) 8. 10:59 PM - Flight Time (db308) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:03 AM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: FK fairings...............input requested. Thanks David, We=92ll see how these FK fairings work out. I am not sure how the Spitfire flap articulates, but I suspect it will be the same as these fairings i.e. the flap retracts into the fairing such that it creates a small clamshell at the root end of the flap when it is extended. The drag I mention is with them deployed, and in combination with the lift created from the flap outboard of this shadowed part, would mean that the flap would have a lesser impact than a completely clean flap, but not by much. Any increase in drag is better at the root of the wing, so if lift is killed here, it shouldn=92t matter that much. Thats my view sofar, and I have made them removable so that if I am not happy with the collective wisdom to strap them on for the first flight, I won=92t. I can fly it clean to start with, which would be the wisest and then extend the flaps and check out the flight characteristics at altitude. Like I said, I don=92t expect anything untoward, but I don=92t actually know so am keen for the input. Also, I have extended my wing closeouts so I don=92t have any gap more than 3 mm between the side of the fuse and the wings, without fairings. So, if I don=92t like the flight characteristics of these fairings I can remove them, on the airfield, and go fly without any fairings aft of the spar on the top of the wing. It looks good the way it is without fairings, and if it wasn=92t for the fact that there is interference drag in that area, what I have underneath the fairing is gross overkill for a good outcome. Don=92t ask me why I did it, to cover it up with a fairing, but hey, you get carried away from time to time, or I do. Regards Tony Renshaw Here is a picture of the port one, untrimmed, in plan view. Weighs about 1 kg +/- On 15 Feb 2014, at 6:54 pm, David Joyce wrote: > > Tony, don't believe you want more drag! It is as welcome as a hole in the head! The major feature of the Europa is that it has low drag aerodynamics, so gives great performance in terms of speed for given horsepower or fuel usage. Admittedly slowing down a 'slippery' plane needs a bit of forethought but certainly not extra drag. I suspect the benefit of any change in the fairings will be aesthetic principally, as Don Dykin knew a bit about aerodynamics. One thing is clear, however, and that is that you should not have leaky joints allowing air to bleed from the hi pressure underneath the wing to the upper surface. If your joints are not air tight then taping them like every glider does will bring measurable performance benefits. > Regards, David > > > On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 09:05:46 +1100 > Tony Renshaw wrote: >> Gidday, >> Some of you may recognise these beautiful fairings of Fred Kleins, the Spitfire mod I call it. Freds instructions can be modified of course, and I=92ve done that by keeping them complete as one piece, and making them removable with a few minutes and a spanner. I am interested in input on what people think of the aerodynamic impact of me doing it this way though, whereas Fred kept the aerodynamic efficiency of the top section of the fairing by splitting it such that half stays on the fuse, half on wing an half on flap. This means that half the fairing articulates as the flap does, which means it has half the impact. I expect I will have less root lift obviously, and more drag, however I hear that the aircraft needs more drag, so I=92ll certainly get that. I have a little clamshell speed brake here, and possibly I might have a greater load on my flaps due to the drag, but the air can also get under the outer portion of the fairing and mightn=92t be too disturbed except for the portion completely under the fairing. If I don=92t like this setup, or decide to change it during the build, I can cut them to follow FKs intent. Meanwhile I would like to request input from others. Thanks >> Regards >> Tony Renshaw >> Sydney Aussie. >> P.S. I am unsure if my photos will be embedded in the list bounced emails. I don=92t get other people=92s photos, which is irritating, and hope that others don=92t have this issue. P.S.S. or is it P.P.S. ? Thank you for the responses regarding my battery location question. > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:11 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: trailer for tri-gear wanted From: "g-fizy" hi tax man chasing me got to cut costs :-( has anyone got a tri-gear trailer for sale ,any condition will do regards jim -------- owner g-fizy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418741#418741 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:06:08 PM PST US From: "richard" Subject: Re: Europa-List: trailer for tri-gear wanted Hi Jim, Yes I could, contact me off line at rcollings@talktalk.net -----Original Message----- From: g-fizy Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 4:48 PM Subject: Europa-List: trailer for tri-gear wanted hi tax man chasing me got to cut costs :-( has anyone got a tri-gear trailer for sale ,any condition will do regards jim -------- owner g-fizy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418741#418741 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:27 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings Richard, I would assume the mono with wheel retracted would be slightly better. Those three sticks can generate a bit more drag even with wheel pants. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Sky Mail To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings Bud Thanks for this info - I assume these were all at 1,370 lbs? I see 419PL is a trigear so I assume we can expect slightly better than -250 fpm from a mono set up at the same weight? regards Richard Sent from my iPad On 10 Feb 2014, at 01:23, Bud Yerly > wrote: Just a note on sink rates in 419PL: From my 1000 miles in the MG (copies in Europa Flyer or my website www.customflightcreations.com accessories and tips look under techniques). Sink Rates observed: Engine off, prop feathered from one test flight: 90 Kts 400fpm 80Kts 300fpm 70 Kts 300 fpm 65 Kts 250 fpm 55 Kts 350 fpm trimmed nearly full aft. Since Mod 78 makes the spar the same height from root spar to the tip of the spar, it should not be a major problem normally. Careful construction only thickens the spar about 1/16 of an inch. I am sorry Dave, that your tank was put in too low. If the interior is not hard to remove, consider moving the tank up. Yes its a mess but in a week it could be done. I know it is easy for me to say, as one mistake and the cost of a new tank gets figured in makes the job a real knuckle biter. I do not do tech support for Europa any longer, but if you come to Sun 'n Fun (Site 33 this year) you can look over what we have done to ensure the Mod 78 spar clears controls, includes a spar cup/support for rigging ease, and I'll show how to remove the crosslink bolts and add countersunk screws which preserves all the structure. If you can't make the show, then email me off line and I'll send you what I have. I supplied Europa with drawings on modifying the flap push rod to clear the spars as that is a real problem on the mono. Trigear is a piece of cake. Keep the spars thin and it will work. The extra 100 pounds the glider wing adds can make the plane a single seat only aircraft unless you built light. It does move right along if you go really high, but below 10,000 MSL it is basically an economical 120 knot bird. You can really stretch the range with the long wings. Once the health becomes a concern, it is also quite nice to fly as a glider with no medical. Regards, Bud Yerly > From: deford.dave@gmail.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 06:03:17 -0800 > > > > Ron, > > We did switch back and forth between short and long wings, accumulating 90 > hours on the long wings, before we heard about the Mod 78 structural > problems and quit using them. > > The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller > spar tangs of Mod 78. Building according to the current instructions 15 > years ago (modified shortly thereafter), our tank is set low enough that the > "shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs. I > heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang, and > then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars. We would > have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gain > enough clearance for the modified spars, which we are not prepared to do. > Since the long wings are of no use to us, we would be happy to sell them at > just about any price to someone who could use them (after applying Mod 78, > of course). > > Dave DeFord > N135TD > > > It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings > > on your XS Mono. > > > > Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear > > post mod 78 spars, airbrake cable and pitch cross tube? > > > >======================== > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D a-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D //forums.matronics.com D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:42 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings Alan, I'll get back with you off line. Had a go at the cancer center and clients in the shop which has tied me up. I have a bit of time to go in and see if I have some info. / photo's. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: alan.twigg775@gmail.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 1:35 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings Bud, details of post Mod 78 Spar cup(s) would be most welcome. Wing root fittings bonded on yesterday, I removed the aileron cranks as I need to trim them and have my countersunk bolts ready as Dave Anderson and you describe. Next job after removing wings and drilling + bolting the fittings is to countersink the Aileron cranks. Any advice on doing this in sittu would be welcomed . Regards Alan Twigg Sent from my iPhone On 10 Feb 2014, at 01:23, Bud Yerly > wrote: Just a note on sink rates in 419PL: From my 1000 miles in the MG (copies in Europa Flyer or my website www.customflightcreations.com accessories and tips look under techniques). Sink Rates observed: Engine off, prop feathered from one test flight: 90 Kts 400fpm 80Kts 300fpm 70 Kts 300 fpm 65 Kts 250 fpm 55 Kts 350 fpm trimmed nearly full aft. Since Mod 78 makes the spar the same height from root spar to the tip of the spar, it should not be a major problem normally. Careful construction only thickens the spar about 1/16 of an inch. I am sorry Dave, that your tank was put in too low. If the interior is not hard to remove, consider moving the tank up. Yes its a mess but in a week it could be done. I know it is easy for me to say, as one mistake and the cost of a new tank gets figured in makes the job a real knuckle biter. I do not do tech support for Europa any longer, but if you come to Sun 'n Fun (Site 33 this year) you can look over what we have done to ensure the Mod 78 spar clears controls, includes a spar cup/support for rigging ease, and I'll show how to remove the crosslink bolts and add countersunk screws which preserves all the structure. If you can't make the show, then email me off line and I'll send you what I have. I supplied Europa with drawings on modifying the flap push rod to clear the spars as that is a real problem on the mono. Trigear is a piece of cake. Keep the spars thin and it will work. The extra 100 pounds the glider wing adds can make the plane a single seat only aircraft unless you built light. It does move right along if you go really high, but below 10,000 MSL it is basically an economical 120 knot bird. You can really stretch the range with the long wings. Once the health becomes a concern, it is also quite nice to fly as a glider with no medical. Regards, Bud Yerly > From: deford.dave@gmail.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Motorglider wings > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 06:03:17 -0800 > > > > Ron, > > We did switch back and forth between short and long wings, accumulating 90 > hours on the long wings, before we heard about the Mod 78 structural > problems and quit using them. > > The long wings would not fit into the fuselage of N135TD with the taller > spar tangs of Mod 78. Building according to the current instructions 15 > years ago (modified shortly thereafter), our tank is set low enough that the > "shelf" at the top front interfered with the short wing spar tangs. I > heated the tank locally to deform it enough to pass the starboard tang, and > then had to do it again for the slightly taller long wing spars. We would > have to cut open the cockpit module and replace the tank in order to gain > enough clearance for the modified spars, which we are not prepared to do. > Since the long wings are of no use to us, we would be happy to sell them at > just about any price to someone who could use them (after applying Mod 78, > of course). > > Dave DeFord > N135TD > > > It sounds like you switch back and forth between short and long wings > > on your XS Mono. > > > > Did you do Mod 78? If so how did you get your flap push-rod to clear > > post mod 78 spars, airbrake cable and pitch cross tube? > > > >======================== > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D a-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D //forums.matronics.com D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:54 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Battery Condition Indicator Gidday, My battery charger, a CTEK XS800 trickle charger, has a wide range of accessories, including a panel mounted display that simply flashes either a Green, Orange, or Red LED, at a frequency of about 1 flash every 1-2 seconds. I am thinking I might put it on the panel immediately in front of me, and in a way it will be a warning indicator. If I can pull it apart I might be able to tamper with it and remove the Green LED, that way it can be a straight warning light. Here is the link for what might be a simple addition to an uncomplicated panel, for someone who has to actively monitor battery condition, but who forgets. http://www.ctek.com/au/en/chargers/Comfort%20Indicator%20Panel%20M8%203%2c3m It comes in a 1.5 m and 3.3 m length, which sounds perfect depending on where you put or have placed your battery. Tony Renshaw Sydney Aussie. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:24 PM PST US From: Tim Ward Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery Condition Indicator Tony, Sounds like a good idea. Might do it myself. I had a rectifier fail in flight and to be able to check my battery charge I have to use the electronic EFIS which went dead on me due to no power. So a separate independent system like the charge indicator would be perfect. Either that or an amp meter. No need to take the green LED out. Reassurance that all is OK. Where did you get the Charger? Auto shops? 787-900 Dreamliner Course in April. First Line Captain, so it will be the blind leading the blind! You still on the 747-400? Cheers, Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton, Christchurch, 8052 New Zealand. ward.t@xtra.co.nz Ph 64 3 3515166 Mob 0210640221 > On 16/02/2014, at 12:28 pm, Tony Renshaw wrote: > > > Gidday, > My battery charger, a CTEK XS800 trickle charger, has a wide range of accessories, including a panel mounted display that simply flashes either a Green, Orange, or Red LED, at a frequency of about 1 flash every 1-2 seconds. I am thinking I might put it on the panel immediately in front of me, and in a way it will be a warning indicator. If I can pull it apart I might be able to tamper with it and remove the Green LED, that way it can be a straight warning light. Here is the link for what might be a simple addition to an uncomplicated panel, for someone who has to actively monitor battery condition, but who forgets. > http://www.ctek.com/au/en/chargers/Comfort%20Indicator%20Panel%20M8%203%2c3m > > It comes in a 1.5 m and 3.3 m length, which sounds perfect depending on where you put or have placed your battery. > > Tony Renshaw > Sydney Aussie. > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:51 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Flight Time From: "db308" Australian Classic Europa Mono kit 181 reaches 1000hrs operation. First flew Aug 1998. Still satisfied, thanks to Ivan Shaw & crew. Regards to all, John Baker. 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