---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/19/14: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:00 AM - Re: Re: Mod 11354 Control lock (Alasdair Milne) 2. 01:28 AM - Flap Closeout Closeout (Tony Renshaw) 3. 02:07 AM - Re: Flap Closeout Closeout (Pete Lawless) 4. 02:55 AM - Re: Flap Closeout Closeout (Jim McAvoy) 5. 03:02 AM - Re: Flap Closeout Closeout (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 6. 03:07 AM - Re: Flap Closeout Closeout (rparigoris) 7. 03:29 AM - Re: Flap Closeout Closeout (Tony Renshaw) 8. 03:33 AM - Re: Flap Closeout Closeout (Jim McAvoy) 9. 04:27 AM - Re: Flap Closeout Closeout (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 10. 06:09 AM - Hi Top??? Beware! Get the wing incidence right! (G-ODTW) 11. 08:27 AM - Re: Flap Closeout Closeout (Fred Klein) 12. 10:16 AM - Re: Flap Closeout Closeout (Bob Harrison) 13. 11:21 AM - Re: Flap Closeout Closeout (Greg Fuchs) 14. 11:27 AM - Re: FK fairings...............input requested. (Greg Fuchs) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:19 AM PST US From: "Alasdair Milne" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod 11354 Control lock Production of the dxf file from your sketch for the alternative of laser cutting is offered by Sorb Engineering in Marlow, Bucks (wwwsorb.co.uk). -----Original Message----- From: G-ODTW Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 10:04 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod 11354 Control lock Hi Frank, I drew this up in AutoCAD LT, and sent the dxf file to a waterjet cutting company -------- David Walters 01474 816817 dave@robotas.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418928#418928 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/europa_control_lock_dv_panel_door_knob_guard_plates_etc_188.jpg ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:14 AM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout Gidday, Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not. There must be an easier way, but I don=92t know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips?? Tony R. Sydney Aussie. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:36 AM PST US From: Pete Lawless Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout Hi Tony From past experience of expanding foam in house building projects I would guess it is not suitable. Tends to have quite large voids left in it after it has gone off. It also tends to keep expanding so very difficult to judge how much to put in. Be interested to know if any one has found a way of using it, I have been meaning to fill my flap extensions for the last 12 years. Pete Classic 912 #109 On 19/02/14 09:27, Tony Renshaw wrote: > Gidday, > Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not. > There must be an easier way, but I dont know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips?? > Tony R. > Sydney Aussie. > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout From: Jim McAvoy Tony, Jim here. I did it years ago now and it wasn't anywhere as difficult as you anticipate. Also made some cones and glued them in first. I then took a suitable bit of leftover foam and pushed it onto the flap end, which made a perfect line to cut. My foam was only 1/2 inch thick, so I blocked it outweigh scraps, glued it in the end, filled the gaps and 2 layers of BID - Bobs your uncle. Jim McAvoy Perth > On 19 Feb 2014, at 6:06 pm, Pete Lawless wrote: > > > Hi Tony > > From past experience of expanding foam in house building projects I would guess it is not suitable. Tends to have quite large voids left in it after it has gone off. It also tends to keep expanding so very difficult to judge how much to put in. > > Be interested to know if any one has found a way of using it, I have been meaning to fill my flap extensions for the last 12 years. > > Pete > Classic 912 #109 > >> On 19/02/14 09:27, Tony Renshaw wrote: >> Gidday, >> Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not. >> There must be an easier way, but I dont know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips?? >> Tony R. >> Sydney Aussie. > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:06 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout Tony=0Athat's the way I would do it. Trouble with spray can Urethane is it never really stabilises.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________ _____=0A From: Jim McAvoy =0ATo: "europa-list@matroni cs.com" =0ASent: Wednesday, 19 February 2014, 1 0:55=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout=0A =0A=0A--> Europa -List message posted by: Jim McAvoy =0A=0ATony, Jim h ere.=0AI did it years ago now and it wasn't anywhere as difficult as you an ticipate.=0AAlso made some cones and glued them in first. I then took a sui table bit of leftover foam and pushed it onto the flap end, which made a pe rfect line to cut. My foam was only 1/2 inch thick, so I blocked it outweig h scraps, glued it in the end, filled the gaps and 2 layers of BID - Bobs y our uncle.=0AJim McAvoy=0APerth=0A=0A> On 19 Feb 2014, at 6:06 pm, Pete Law Pete Lawless =0A> =0A> Hi Tony=0A> =0A> From past exper ience of expanding foam in house building projects I would guess it is not suitable.=C2- Tends to have quite large voids left in it after it has gon e off.=C2- It also tends to keep expanding so very difficult to judge how much to put in.=0A> =0A> Be interested to know if any one has found a way of using it, I have been meaning to fill my flap extensions for the last 12 years.=0A> =0A> Pete=0A> Classic 912 #109=0A> =0A>> On 19/02/14 09:27, Ton y Renshaw wrote:=0A>> Gidday,=0A>> Like others I am considering whether I w ill close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have creat ed a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or some thing similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a dee p closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam insert s would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside d own as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I h ave a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not.=0A>> There must be an easier way, but I do n=99t know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a ch amber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the c loseout, somehow. Any tips??=0A>> Tony R.=0A>> Sydney Aussie.=0A> =0A> =0A> =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List ======= ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:07:18 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Flap Closeout Closeout From: "rparigoris" Hi Tony It's hard to tell from your picture, but it looks like you have "tripple" expanding foam. I have fooled a bit, especially with Foam Radio Controlled models and low expanding foam is the secret. Once cured it trims up very nice with a razor blade or knife. I used the low expanding foam to support my fuel tank after the cockpit module was installed. See "Say NO to crack": http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=86925 Remember that the flap cross tube articulates as the flap is raised and lowered, in other words the angle it meets up with the flap drive pin changes. You need to take this into account. I have a drawing in my build manual, I think it came about from England, perhaps I downloaded from the Europa club, but it called for building up the OD of the outboard flap tube, perhaps it was somewhere between 1/8" and 1/4" (I'm not exactly sure), then the tapered guide fit reasonably close to that built up OD that would allow you to get the pin engaged, then when you sent it home (pushed the flap all the way on the pin) the tapered guide went away so you now have clearance between the tapered guide and the now normal OD flap drive cross tube. So many words, my thoughts are now probably clear as mud!: See Useful Mod 10303: http://www.theeuropaclub.org/for-builders/europa-mods-sbs/laa-all-of-type/ I don't know if I'm going to install a ramp/guide or close the flaps out. If I do I have some of the shaped bluefoam that I used to make the close out. Off the cuff perhaps shape some blue foam somewhat close to the shape you want and fill voids with expanding foam? It will not cure unless a little moisture can get as it. If you shoot lets say under a close fitting block, may take a "LONG" time to cure and would be expanding and oozing half of forever. Thus fool on a test making some holes in the blue foam. You could light mist a side of the foam too if you are in a dry area. Or make a outboard rib out of Balsa and light cover with thin glass, drill a small water drain out on bottom? Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418984#418984 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:15 AM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout Hi Graham, Not stabilising doesn=92t sound good. Seems like using good old blue foam might be the better way to go, and bog it in with micro. It is a frustration that you can=92t poor in a liquid that sets. I could always use plaster ;-) Tony R. On 19 Feb 2014, at 10:01 pm, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > Tony > that's the way I would do it. Trouble with spray can Urethane is it never really stabilises. > Graham > > From: Jim McAvoy > To: "europa-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2014, 10:55 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout > > > Tony, Jim here. > I did it years ago now and it wasn't anywhere as difficult as you anticipate. > Also made some cones and glued them in first. I then took a suitable bit of leftover foam and pushed it onto the flap end, which made a perfect line to cut. My foam was only 1/2 inch thick, so I blocked it outweigh scraps, glued it in the end, filled the gaps and 2 layers of BID - Bobs your uncle. > Jim McAvoy > Perth > > > On 19 Feb 2014, at 6:06 pm, Pete Lawless wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tony > > > > =46rom past experience of expanding foam in house building projects I would guess it is not suitable. Tends to have quite large voids left in it after it has gone off. It also tends to keep expanding so very difficult to judge how much to put in. > > > > Be interested to know if any one has found a way of using it, I have been meaning to fill my flap extensions for the last 12 years. > > > > Pete > > Classic 912 #109 > > > >> On 19/02/14 09:27, Tony Renshaw wrote: > >> Gidday, > >> Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not. > >> There must be an easier way, but I don=92t know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips?? > >> Tony R. > >> Sydney Aussie. > > > > http://www.mat; ronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contrib======== ====== > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:59 AM PST US From: Jim McAvoy Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout Tony Forgot to mention, I also turned up some extended flap drive pointy pins. They extend about 2 inches longer than the original ones so you can locate them into the cross tube before pushing the wings close to the fuse, works fine. Jim > On 19 Feb 2014, at 5:27 pm, Tony Renshaw wrote: > > Gidday, > Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap cross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes that I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, then filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping it, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a disaster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and disaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expanding cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not. > There must be an easier way, but I dont know what it is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any tips?? > Tony R. > Sydney Aussie. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:16 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout Blu foam and micro is the way to go! Use plenty of microballoons so stiff m icro and be careful you don't get an exotherm=0Awhich you will if there's a big volume of micro.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________________ __=0A From: Tony Renshaw =0ATo: europa-list@matro nics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, 19 February 2014, 11:28=0ASubject: Re: Europa- List: Flap Closeout Closeout=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Graham,=0ANot stabilising doesn =99t sound good. Seems like using good old blue foam might be the bet ter way to go, and bog it in with micro. It is a frustration that you can =99t poor in a liquid that sets. I could always use plaster ;-)=0A=0A Tony R.=0A=0A=0A=0AOn 19 Feb 2014, at 10:01 pm, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A=0ATony=0A>that's the way I would do it. Tr ouble with spray can Urethane is it never really stabilises.=0A>Graham=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A>From:=C2-Jim McAvoy < jimca@ozemail.com.au>=0A>To:=C2-"europa-list@matronics.com" =C2-=0A>Sent:=C2-Wednesday, 19 February 2014, 10:55=0A>Su bject:=C2-Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout=0A>=0A>=0A>--> Europa-L ist message posted by: Jim McAvoy =0A>=0A>Tony, Jim h ere.=0A>I did it years ago now and it wasn't anywhere as difficult as you a nticipate.=0A>Also made some cones and glued them in first. I then took a s uitable bit of leftover foam and pushed it onto the flap end, which made a perfect line to cut. My foam was only 1/2 inch thick, so I blocked it outwe igh scraps, glued it in the end, filled the gaps and 2 layers of BID - Bobs your uncle.=0A>Jim McAvoy=0A>Perth=0A>=0A>> On 19 Feb 2014, at 6:06 pm, Pe te Lawless wrote:=0A>>=C2-=0A>> --> Europa-List messa ge posted by: Pete Lawless =0A>>=C2-=0A>> Hi Tony=0A>> =C2-=0A>> From past experience of expanding foam in house building projec ts I would guess it is not suitable.=C2- Tends to have quite large voids left in it after it has gone off.=C2- It also tends to keep expanding so very difficult to judge how much to put in.=0A>>=C2-=0A>> Be interested t o know if any one has found a way of using it, I have been meaning to fill my flap extensions for the last 12 years.=0A>>=C2-=0A>> Pete=0A>> Classic 912 #109=0A>>=C2-=0A>>> On 19/02/14 09:27, Tony Renshaw wrote:=0A>>> Gid day,=0A>>> Like others I am considering whether I will close off the end of my flaps. I have found a tube that is tapered down to the OD of the flap c ross tube, my vacuum cleaner wand, and I have created a couple of tubes tha t I intend on placing over the flap cross tube and re-rigging the wings, th en filling the gap ideally with expand foam or something similar, shaping i t, and then glassing over it, with flox corners and 2 plies of BID. Has any one used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, and to make up foam inserts would be a bit of a di saster. I tried some expanding foam today, upside down as instructed, and d isaster. It managed to exude around the base of the wand, not down it into my dummy setup, the inside of a tissue box. So, I have a puddle of expandin g cell foam on my bench that I can now see if it is sandable and shapeable, or not.=0A>>> There must be an easier way, but I don=99t know what i t is. It seems wise to fill it rather than have a chamber of air, requiring venting if I just create a wall at the end of the closeout, somehow. Any t ips??=0A>>> Tony R.=0A>>> Sydney Aussie.=0A>>=C2-=0A>>=C2-http://www.ma t; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-ronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contrib======== ========0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>href="http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Lis t=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahre f="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri ================== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:05 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Hi Top??? Beware! Get the wing incidence right! From: "G-ODTW" I'm soon bonding my top on, and luckily I realised that Europa's standard instructions would result in a wing incidence error. I contacted Bud, who was very helpful:- From: Bud Yerly Sent: 19 February 2014 13:24 Subject: Re: Wing angle of incidence for Mod 64b, Hi Top So far all high top builders have caught it. Why it was omitted from the mod, I can't say. Bud Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Dave Walters wrote: Thanks Bud, good stuff. If you are building a Hi Top, I take it then that page 27-1, rather than saying placing the spirit level on the door recess of the port side", should read placing the spirit level parallel to the marks on the joggle of the lower fuselage on the port side". I wonder how many Hi tops have this wrong!, ploughing along inefficiently through the air? Do you mind if I bung this whole thread on Matronics for others to benefit, crediting you? Best Regards, Dave Walters Sent from Dave's iPad On 18 Feb 2014, at 21:59, "Bud Yerly" wrote: Dave, Sorry that Europa did not publish my changes for this four years ago. What you do is put two holes on the water line prior to painting. I put the marks on the joggle of the lower fuselage which is parallel to the door sill. If you don't want to fuss with marks on the outside of your aircraft, then make a levelsee line on your seat back and plan your interior to pull up, exposing the leveling marks... Set your level on your seat back marks. Or make a bevel triangle that sets on the door sill and the wedge is made to hold the level on the level axis. Of course if your plane is already painted, pull the the interior back and use the joggle line molded in to mark from. Again, it may be better to make a couple holes. If that is covered up by a under sill conduit, use the line in the baggage bay as that is level also. In many certified aircraft there is a line of rivets, or two nutplates for screws for a horizontal. On some jets, the vertical axis of the door or canopy bow is used. On others, the belly has two witness marks and are threaded (nutplates on the inside) where a straight edge is placed to level. I prefer to screw in two #6 button head screws into the fuselage below the door and use that to hold my 24 inch digital level. But am comfortable with the seat back position also. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Walters Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 4:11 PM Subject: Wing angle of incidence for Mod 64b, Hi Top Hi Bud, I cannot recall seeing anywhere how 64b affects the water line to chord line angle (the angle of incidence). Blindly following the placing the spirit level on the door recess of the port side of page 27-1 surely will now introduce an error? I reckon the wing angle to the door recess should be 2.5degrees LESS the angle introduced by 64b. What do you think? Best regards, Dave Walters -------- David Walters 01474 816817 dave@robotas.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418993#418993 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:32 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout On Feb 19, 2014, at 1:27 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > Gidday,Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, Tony...yes, I have. I tried and tested many different kinds. I got my best results from "non-expanding" foam...I also found a 3 oz. paper cup to be an easy way to form a tapered guide for the flap pin into the flap cross tube...Fred ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:26 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout Hi! All, I just noticed some chat about the Europa Flap Drive slot needing covering and Flaps Inboard close outs . But I missed the initial reason for the commencement of the thread. My contribution is to suggest a visit to Bob Harrison's Europa G-PTAG at:- http://www.users.waitrose.com/~jcliff/BobH/BobH.htm (with much thanks to John Cliff of Waitrose for allowing it to remain in place) where my scheme can be seen . It is however a somewhat sobering thought that it was mostly taken from the Jabiru 3300 power pack days!! I recall that the use of blue foam was employed and the tapered holes for receiving the flap drive shaft during one man rigging was moulded round the "nylon purple rail chair under bolt head tapered packers" off a railway track !!!! ( No it wasn't me that made the train crash either !) but apologies for the "Floor brush for the seeping of" description! Regards To all Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: 19 February 2014 16:27 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout On Feb 19, 2014, at 1:27 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > Gidday,Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep closeout now with the flap extensions on them, Tony...yes, I have. I tried and tested many different kinds. I got my best results from "non-expanding" foam...I also found a 3 oz. paper cup to be an easy way to form a tapered guide for the flap pin into the flap cross tube...Fred ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:14 AM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout Fred, Neat and helpful. Assuming all cups are not created equal, where'd you get the cup from? :) Tony, I used expanding foam on my temporary seat modification Jig, that created a shape for the carbon-fiber plies to form on. It was of the type that needs two parts mixed together, and would expand like crazy once mixed. Unlike from the can, the mix is fairly homogeneous as far as not leaving air voids. I did notice that some of the cured 'bubbles' were larger in some areas than others though. There is a lot of power there. As long as the exit hole is properly sized to let out the pressure during the expanding process, it seemed to do pretty well in fitting the (closed) form that I created for it to expand to. It's probably a good idea to let it sit for a few days to be sure the chemical reaction is halted. Greg -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Closeout Closeout On Feb 19, 2014, at 1:27 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > Gidday,Has anyone used expand foam to shape things as it is a deep > closeout now with the flap extensions on them, Tony...yes, I have. I tried and tested many different kinds. I got my best results from "non-expanding" foam...I also found a 3 oz. paper cup to be an easy way to form a tapered guide for the flap pin into the flap cross tube...Fred ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:37 AM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: FK fairings...............input requested. Hi Tony, I have been thinking about how to implement Fred's Wing Fairing sometime later. In interest of data-gathering (for me), it would need to be removable to allow for testing flight characteristics of the aircraft in multiple configurations, including the original fairing (also for backward compatibility for the other wings available). That would be a good way to see how it performs. Because of this, it seems that keeping it whole (no cutting) might be the best course of action. It's nice to know that someone else is considering the same. If you fly before me, you would have the best information available about how the un-chopped fairing will affect flight performance. :-) I am no aerodynamicist, but do agree with your interpretation below. Any effects of the fairing hanging in the breeze with the flaps deployed can be tested carefully at altitude. Otherwise, it has been tested by a number of others in the flaps-up position and is intended to be less draggy in that state. I don't think (and this is pure conjecture) the exposed surface area is large enough to do anything in the negative way, especially since its in competition with a very large flap that is doing most of the wind directing. BTW: I look forward to obtaining fairing attachment ideas (i.e. nutplates?) from you after you've had time to percolate the project. Regards, Greg _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 1:31 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: FK fairings...............input requested. Thanks David, We'll see how these FK fairings work out. I am not sure how the Spitfire flap articulates, but I suspect it will be the same as these fairings i.e. the flap retracts into the fairing such that it creates a small clamshell at the root end of the flap when it is extended. The drag I mention is with them deployed, and in combination with the lift created from the flap outboard of this shadowed part, would mean that the flap would have a lesser impact than a completely clean flap, but not by much. Any increase in drag is better at the root of the wing, so if lift is killed here, it shouldn't matter that much. Thats my view sofar, and I have made them removable so that if I am not happy with the collective wisdom to strap them on for the first flight, I won't. I can fly it clean to start with, which would be the wisest and then extend the flaps and check out the flight characteristics at altitude. Like I said, I don't expect anything untoward, but I don't actually know so am keen for the input. Also, I have extended my wing closeouts so I don't have any gap more than 3 mm between the side of the fuse and the wings, without fairings. So, if I don't like the flight characteristics of these fairings I can remove them, on the airfield, and go fly without any fairings aft of the spar on the top of the wing. It looks good the way it is without fairings, and if it wasn't for the fact that there is interference drag in that area, what I have underneath the fairing is gross overkill for a good outcome. Don't ask me why I did it, to cover it up with a fairing, but hey, you get carried away from time to time, or I do. Regards Tony Renshaw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.