Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:24 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk)
2. 03:13 AM - Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (John Wighton)
3. 03:26 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
4. 03:39 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Pete Lawless)
5. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Fred Klein)
6. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Peter Zutrauen)
7. 09:23 AM - Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (rparigoris)
8. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (David Joyce)
9. 10:55 AM - SV: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Arnold Kr. Hansen)
10. 11:50 AM - to all you Spitfire aficionados... (Fred Klein)
11. 12:35 PM - Re: SV: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
12. 02:59 PM - Re: to all you Spitfire aficionados... (Tony Renshaw)
13. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Andrew Sarangan)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
I think that given a free choice, a plastic tank is the right way to go.
Nearly all cars now use this material as is doesn't corrode, it's
dimensionally stable, durable and crash tolerant.
The problem with the Europa tank is that it was made from the wrong
material and (unbeknown to the factory at the time) absorbed fuel and
distorted. Also unexpected was the strength with which epoxy resin
bonded to the tank. If built according to instructions, the tank could
move, but some enthusiastic builders piled on the laminations that
created stress risers which, after the passage of time, caused the
plastic to fracture.
Since we have no (cost effective) way to re-manufacture the tank out of
a suitable plastic, the only options are to replace it with "more of the
same" - meaning that in another ten years it could fail again, or revert
to the material of choice for aircraft designers over the years -
alumin(i)um.
This may not be the optimum material (as other posters have outlined),
but it is the next best option for home-builders wanting to create a
"one-off" that is light weight and (if mounted correctly) fatigue resistant.
Fibreglass (chopped-strand-mat/polyester resin) is a non-starter as it
hardens over life and becomes extremely brittle. This was banned for use
on motorcycles in the UK over forty years ago as any accident almost
inevitably resulted in a fireball.
One avenue that does not seem to have been explored is the use of
flexible "fuel bladders" as used in the car racing world.
Nigel
On 27/03/2014 00:24, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
> Just to play devil's advocate, whats the attraction of an aluminum
> fuel tank over a plastic one, or a fiberglass one?
>
> I am familiar with the problems with Europa's plastic tank, but that
> does not mean aluminum is better. You are trading off one problem for
> another.
>
> On that thought, can a tank be 3D printed?
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
The use of flexible bladder tanks is a great idea. However, as they take up a
shape which is driven by internal fuel pressure (due to aircraft manoeuver loads,
sloshing, etc) to react these loads effectively into the surrounding structure
another vessel or holder is required. If cleverly designed this bladder
holder can be a lightweight geodetic structure with hard points at appropriate
locations (for a replacement Europa tank these would be the original mounting
points). This means some of the benefits get eroded (bladder weight + support
structure weight) but it makes it a whole lot easier to remove and replace/service.
I have designed/stressed such a system for a Part 23 twin aircraft as an STC.
For interest the VLA fuel tank requirements are in the regs as follows:
http://www.easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/certification-specifications/CS-VLA/CS-VLA%20%20Amdt%201%20combined.pdf
CS-VLA 963 Fuel tanks: general
(a) Each fuel tank must be able to
withstand, without failure, the vibration, inertia,
fluid, and structural loads that it may be
subjected to in operation.
(b) Each flexible fuel tank liner must be of
an acceptable kind.
(c) Each integral fuel tank must have
adequate facilities for interior inspection and
repair.
CS-VLA 965 Fuel tank tests
Each fuel tank must be able to withstand the
following pressures without failure or leakage:
(a) For each conventional metal tank and
non-metallic tank with walls not supported by
the aeroplane structure, a pressure of 24 kPa.
(b) For each integral tank, the pressure
developed during the maximum limit
acceleration of the aeroplane with a full tank,
with simultaneous application of the critical limit
structural loads.
(c) For each non-metallic tank with walls
supported by the aeroplane structure and
constructed in an acceptable manner using
acceptable basic tank material, and with actual or
simulated support conditions, a pressure of 14
kPa, for the first tank of a specific design. The
supporting structure must be designed for the
critical loads occurring in the flight or landing
strength conditions combined with the fuel
pressure loads resulting from the corresponding
accelerations.
regards
John
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421113#421113
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
Nigel=0Aearly in the Europa story someome built a tank using vinyl ester re
sin, double skinned with a foam=0A(acylic?) core. May have been more than o
ne, it was offered as a mod I think. =0AMike Costin who came from the racin
g car world built an aluminium tank.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________
_________________=0A From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-te
cque.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, 27 March 201
4, 8:23=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod=0A =0A=0A-->
Europa-List message posted by: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@
m-tecque.co.uk>=0A=0AI think that given a free choice, a plastic tank is th
e right way to go. Nearly all cars now use this material as is doesn't corr
ode, it's dimensionally stable, durable and crash tolerant.=0A=0AThe proble
m with the Europa tank is that it was made from the wrong material and (unb
eknown to the factory at the time) absorbed fuel and distorted. Also unexpe
cted was the strength with which epoxy resin bonded to the tank. If built a
ccording to instructions, the tank could move, but some enthusiastic builde
rs piled on the laminations that created stress risers which, after the pas
sage of time, caused the plastic to fracture.=0ASince we have no (cost effe
ctive) way to re-manufacture the tank out of a suitable plastic, the only o
ptions are to replace it with "more of the same" - meaning that in another
ten years it could fail again, or revert to the material of choice for airc
raft designers over the years - alumin(i)um.=0AThis may not be the optimum
material (as other posters have outlined), but it is the next best option f
or home-builders wanting to create a "one-off" that is light weight and (if
mounted correctly) fatigue resistant.=0A=0AFibreglass (chopped-strand-mat/
polyester resin) is a non-starter as it hardens over life and becomes extre
mely brittle. This was banned for use on motorcycles in the UK over forty y
ears ago as any accident almost inevitably resulted in a fireball.=0A=0AOne
avenue that does not seem to have been explored is the use of flexible "fu
el bladders" as used in the car racing world.=0A=0ANigel=0A=0AOn 27/03/2014
w Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com>=0A> =0A> Just to play devil's- advocate,
whats the attraction of an aluminum=0A> fuel tank over a plastic one, or a
fiberglass one?=0A> =0A> I am familiar with the problems with Europa's pla
stic tank, but that=0A> does not mean aluminum is better. You are trading o
ff one problem for=0A> another.=0A> =0A> On that thought, can a tank be 3D
=
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
This may be a stupid question - but given that the original Europa
supplied tanks were known to have been made of the 'wrong material' are
Europa continuing to make tanks from the same 'wrong material' or are
the newly supplied tanks made of something different. It may be that
Europa are still working their way through a large original batch.
Anyone know?
Pete
On 27/03/14 09:22, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
> Nigel
> early in the Europa story someome built a tank using vinyl ester
> resin, double skinned with a foam
> (acylic?) core. May have been more than one, it was offered as a mod I
> think.
> Mike Costin who came from the racing car world built an aluminium tank.
> Graham
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, 27 March 2014, 8:23
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
>
> <mailto:nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk
> <mailto:nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>>
>
> I think that given a free choice, a plastic tank is the right way to
> go. Nearly all cars now use this material as is doesn't corrode, it's
> dimensionally stable, durable and crash tolerant.
>
> The problem with the Europa tank is that it was made from the wrong
> material and (unbeknown to the factory at the time) absorbed fuel and
> distorted. Also unexpected was the strength with which epoxy resin
> bonded to the tank. If built according to instructions, the tank could
> move, but some enthusiastic builders piled on the laminations that
> created stress risers which, after the passage of time, caused the
> plastic to fracture.
> Since we have no (cost effective) way to re-manufacture the tank out
> of a suitable plastic, the only options are to replace it with "more
> of the same" - meaning that in another ten years it could fail again,
> or revert to the material of choice for aircraft designers over the
> years - alumin(i)um.
> This may not be the optimum material (as other posters have outlined),
> but it is the next best option for home-builders wanting to create a
> "one-off" that is light weight and (if mounted correctly) fatigue
> resistant.
>
> Fibreglass (chopped-strand-mat/polyester resin) is a non-starter as it
> hardens over life and becomes extremely brittle. This was banned for
> use on motorcycles in the UK over forty years ago as any accident
> almost inevitably resulted in a fireball.
>
> One avenue that does not seem to have been explored is the use of
> flexible "fuel bladders" as used in the car racing world.
>
> Nigel
>
> On 27/03/2014 00:24, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> <asarangan@gmail.com <mailto:asarangan@gmail.com>>
> >
> > Just to play devil's advocate, whats the attraction of an aluminum
> > fuel tank over a plastic one, or a fiberglass one?
> >
> > I am familiar with the problems with Europa's plastic tank, but that
> > does not mean aluminum is better. You are trading off one problem for
> > another.
> >
> > On that thought, can a tank be 3D printed?
> &gmany List utilities such as List -> http://forums.matronics.com
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>http://ww======================
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info> wrote:
> given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been
made of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from
the same 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of
something different. It may be that Europa are still working their way
through a large original batch.
>
> Anyone know?
I certainly do not =93know=94, but it has been my understanding that at
some point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a
hi-density material=85can anyone can confirm that?
Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track
the kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which
have failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem
pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty,
etc.
Fred
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
...and whether they have been post-florinated/treated beyond the factory's
treatment :-)
I thought the only change the factory made was to start florinating in the
late 90's. I can only imagine that the original non-florinated tanks must
have swollen up like balloons.
cheers,
Pete
A239
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info> wrote:
>
> given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made
> of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same
> 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something
> different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a
> large original batch.
>
> Anyone know?
>
>
> I certainly do not "know", but it has been my understanding that at some
> point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a hi-density
> material...can anyone can confirm that?
>
> Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track the
> kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have
> failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem
> pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc.
>
> Fred
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
Hi Group
Curiosity question about plastic fuel tank for Europa:
** Has anyone had a problem with the long range fuel tank swelling or leaking?
** Do you leave the tank empty between uses?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421147#421147
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
Ron, mine ,(kit 402 dating from around 1999) has swelled a
bit as viewed through the spar tunnel, to almost touch but
not interfere with the aileron linkage bar. No leaks. Has
had roughly equal quantities of Avgas & Mogas + UL 91 for
the last 2 yrs Never emptied between times. Never found
any water in it. i.e. No problems.
Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ
On Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:23:20 -0700
"rparigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
><rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Hi Group
>
> Curiosity question about plastic fuel tank for Europa:
>
> ** Has anyone had a problem with the long range fuel
>tank swelling or leaking?
> ** Do you leave the tank empty between uses?
>
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421147#421147
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
Hi Group,
I can confirm that my non-fluorinated tank swelled and cracked. Removing
the
tank, I learned to my surprise that the HDPE material had become very
brittle. That was not the case when I installed the fuel level sensor.
Before buying a new fluorinated tank from Europa, I searched the net for
information about HDPE tanks used in cars. What I found was that these
tanks
were fluorinated and in addition given a final inside layer of nylon to
become 100% tight. I decided therefore not to buy a new tank from
Europa,
but instead build an aluminium tank.
Best regards
Arnold Kr. Hansen
Europa XS LN ABM
_____
Fra: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] P=E5 vegne av Peter
Zutrauen
Sendt: 27. mars 2014 17:09
Til: europa-list
Emne: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
...and whether they have been post-florinated/treated beyond the
factory's
treatment :-)
I thought the only change the factory made was to start florinating in
the
late 90's. I can only imagine that the original non-florinated tanks
must
have swollen up like balloons.
cheers,
Pete
A239
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
wrote:
On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info> wrote:
given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been
made
of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the
same
'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something
different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a
large original batch.
Anyone know?
I certainly do not =93know=94, but it has been my understanding that at
some
point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a
hi-density
material=85can anyone can confirm that?
Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track
the
kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have
failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem
pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty,
etc.
Fred
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
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Subject: | to all you Spitfire aficionados... |
enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/embed/ie3SrjLlcUY
do not archive
Message 11
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|
Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
If you go to Sun & Fun ask Ivan. There won't be any of the originals now, I
'm pretty sure.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A
From: Arnold Kr. Hansen <arno-k@online.no>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com
=0ASent: Thursday, 27 March 2014, 17:53=0ASubject: SV: Europa-List: Re: XS
Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AHi Group,=0A=C2-=0AI can confirm that
my=0Anon-fluorinated tank swelled and cracked. Removing the tank, I learned
to my=0Asurprise that the HDPE material had become very brittle. That was
not the case=0Awhen I installed the fuel level sensor. Before buying a new
fluorinated tank=0Afrom Europa, I searched the net for information about HD
PE tanks used in cars. What=0AI found was that these tanks were fluorinated
and in addition given a final=0Ainside layer of nylon to become 100% tight
. I decided therefore not to buy a=0Anew tank from Europa, but instead buil
d an aluminium tank.=0A=C2-=0ABest regards=0AArnold Kr. Hansen=0AEuropa X
S LN ABM=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFra:owner-eur
opa-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.
com] P=C3=A5 vegne av Peter Zutrauen=0ASendt: 27. mars 2014 17:09=0ATil: eu
ropa-list=0AEmne: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel=0ATank Kiwi Mod=0A=C2-=0A.
..and whether they have=0Abeen post-florinated/treated beyond the factory's
treatment=C2- :-)=0AI thought the only change the factory made was to st
art florinating in=0Athe late 90's.=C2- I can only imagine that the origi
nal non-florinated tanks=0Amust have swollen up like balloons.=0A=0Acheers,
=0APete=0AA239=0A=C2-=0AOn Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Fred Klein <fkl
ein@orcasonline.com>=0Awrote:=0A=C2-=0AOn Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete
Lawless <pete@lawless.info>=0Awrote:=0A=0A=0Agiven that the original Europa
supplied tanks were=0Aknown to have been made of the 'wrong material' are
Europa continuing to make=0Atanks from the same 'wrong material' or are the
newly supplied tanks made of=0Asomething different.=C2- It may be that E
uropa are still working their way=0Athrough a large original batch.=0A=0AAn
yone know?=0A=C2-=0AI certainly do not =9Cknow=9D, but it has
been my understanding=0Athat at some point Europa changed from the origina
l lo-density material to a=0Ahi-density materialcan anyone can con
firm that?=0A=C2-=0AApropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value
if we could track=0Athe kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of tho
se tanks which have=0Afailed, as well as any other aspects of the failures
which may seem pertinent=0Asuch as ambient temperatures, long-term storage
while empty, etc.=0A=C2-=0AFred=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Aarg
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0Atp://forums.
matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=C2-=0A
=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A
===============
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: to all you Spitfire aficionados... |
Yep,
Really enjoyed watching it. Cool hand Luke sort of fella. What a plane. I want
to go fly one now.
TR
On 28 Mar 2014, at 5:50 am, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> enjoy
>
> https://www.youtube.com/embed/ie3SrjLlcUY
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod |
I fluorinated my crica 2000 tank and its been filled with mogas for
nearly 3 months and I don't see any sign of swelling. However, its
been cold this winter, and my theory is that these tanks absorb fuel
when hot which can happen during hot summer months. Most of the tank
failures I have heard of have come from warmer climates.
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Peter Zutrauen <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
> ...and whether they have been post-florinated/treated beyond the factory's
> treatment :-)
>
> I thought the only change the factory made was to start florinating in the
> late 90's. I can only imagine that the original non-florinated tanks must
> have swollen up like balloons.
>
> cheers,
> Pete
> A239
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info> wrote:
>>
>> given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made
>> of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same
>> 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something
>> different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a
>> large original batch.
>>
>> Anyone know?
>>
>>
>> I certainly do not "know", but it has been my understanding that at some
>> point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a hi-density
>> material...can anyone can confirm that?
>>
>> Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track the
>> kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have
>> failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem
>> pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
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