---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/27/14: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:24 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk) 2. 03:13 AM - Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (John Wighton) 3. 03:26 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 4. 03:39 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Pete Lawless) 5. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Fred Klein) 6. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Peter Zutrauen) 7. 09:23 AM - Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (rparigoris) 8. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (David Joyce) 9. 10:55 AM - SV: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Arnold Kr. Hansen) 10. 11:50 AM - to all you Spitfire aficionados... (Fred Klein) 11. 12:35 PM - Re: SV: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 12. 02:59 PM - Re: to all you Spitfire aficionados... (Tony Renshaw) 13. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Andrew Sarangan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:47 AM PST US From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod I think that given a free choice, a plastic tank is the right way to go. Nearly all cars now use this material as is doesn't corrode, it's dimensionally stable, durable and crash tolerant. The problem with the Europa tank is that it was made from the wrong material and (unbeknown to the factory at the time) absorbed fuel and distorted. Also unexpected was the strength with which epoxy resin bonded to the tank. If built according to instructions, the tank could move, but some enthusiastic builders piled on the laminations that created stress risers which, after the passage of time, caused the plastic to fracture. Since we have no (cost effective) way to re-manufacture the tank out of a suitable plastic, the only options are to replace it with "more of the same" - meaning that in another ten years it could fail again, or revert to the material of choice for aircraft designers over the years - alumin(i)um. This may not be the optimum material (as other posters have outlined), but it is the next best option for home-builders wanting to create a "one-off" that is light weight and (if mounted correctly) fatigue resistant. Fibreglass (chopped-strand-mat/polyester resin) is a non-starter as it hardens over life and becomes extremely brittle. This was banned for use on motorcycles in the UK over forty years ago as any accident almost inevitably resulted in a fireball. One avenue that does not seem to have been explored is the use of flexible "fuel bladders" as used in the car racing world. Nigel On 27/03/2014 00:24, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > Just to play devil's advocate, whats the attraction of an aluminum > fuel tank over a plastic one, or a fiberglass one? > > I am familiar with the problems with Europa's plastic tank, but that > does not mean aluminum is better. You are trading off one problem for > another. > > On that thought, can a tank be 3D printed? > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:08 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod From: "John Wighton" The use of flexible bladder tanks is a great idea. However, as they take up a shape which is driven by internal fuel pressure (due to aircraft manoeuver loads, sloshing, etc) to react these loads effectively into the surrounding structure another vessel or holder is required. If cleverly designed this bladder holder can be a lightweight geodetic structure with hard points at appropriate locations (for a replacement Europa tank these would be the original mounting points). This means some of the benefits get eroded (bladder weight + support structure weight) but it makes it a whole lot easier to remove and replace/service. I have designed/stressed such a system for a Part 23 twin aircraft as an STC. For interest the VLA fuel tank requirements are in the regs as follows: http://www.easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/certification-specifications/CS-VLA/CS-VLA%20%20Amdt%201%20combined.pdf CS-VLA 963 Fuel tanks: general (a) Each fuel tank must be able to withstand, without failure, the vibration, inertia, fluid, and structural loads that it may be subjected to in operation. (b) Each flexible fuel tank liner must be of an acceptable kind. (c) Each integral fuel tank must have adequate facilities for interior inspection and repair. CS-VLA 965 Fuel tank tests Each fuel tank must be able to withstand the following pressures without failure or leakage: (a) For each conventional metal tank and non-metallic tank with walls not supported by the aeroplane structure, a pressure of 24 kPa. (b) For each integral tank, the pressure developed during the maximum limit acceleration of the aeroplane with a full tank, with simultaneous application of the critical limit structural loads. (c) For each non-metallic tank with walls supported by the aeroplane structure and constructed in an acceptable manner using acceptable basic tank material, and with actual or simulated support conditions, a pressure of 14 kPa, for the first tank of a specific design. The supporting structure must be designed for the critical loads occurring in the flight or landing strength conditions combined with the fuel pressure loads resulting from the corresponding accelerations. regards John -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421113#421113 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:26:42 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Nigel=0Aearly in the Europa story someome built a tank using vinyl ester re sin, double skinned with a foam=0A(acylic?) core. May have been more than o ne, it was offered as a mod I think. =0AMike Costin who came from the racin g car world built an aluminium tank.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________ _________________=0A From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, 27 March 201 4, 8:23=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" =0A=0AI think that given a free choice, a plastic tank is th e right way to go. Nearly all cars now use this material as is doesn't corr ode, it's dimensionally stable, durable and crash tolerant.=0A=0AThe proble m with the Europa tank is that it was made from the wrong material and (unb eknown to the factory at the time) absorbed fuel and distorted. Also unexpe cted was the strength with which epoxy resin bonded to the tank. If built a ccording to instructions, the tank could move, but some enthusiastic builde rs piled on the laminations that created stress risers which, after the pas sage of time, caused the plastic to fracture.=0ASince we have no (cost effe ctive) way to re-manufacture the tank out of a suitable plastic, the only o ptions are to replace it with "more of the same" - meaning that in another ten years it could fail again, or revert to the material of choice for airc raft designers over the years - alumin(i)um.=0AThis may not be the optimum material (as other posters have outlined), but it is the next best option f or home-builders wanting to create a "one-off" that is light weight and (if mounted correctly) fatigue resistant.=0A=0AFibreglass (chopped-strand-mat/ polyester resin) is a non-starter as it hardens over life and becomes extre mely brittle. This was banned for use on motorcycles in the UK over forty y ears ago as any accident almost inevitably resulted in a fireball.=0A=0AOne avenue that does not seem to have been explored is the use of flexible "fu el bladders" as used in the car racing world.=0A=0ANigel=0A=0AOn 27/03/2014 w Sarangan =0A> =0A> Just to play devil's- advocate, whats the attraction of an aluminum=0A> fuel tank over a plastic one, or a fiberglass one?=0A> =0A> I am familiar with the problems with Europa's pla stic tank, but that=0A> does not mean aluminum is better. You are trading o ff one problem for=0A> another.=0A> =0A> On that thought, can a tank be 3D = ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:04 AM PST US From: Pete Lawless Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod This may be a stupid question - but given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a large original batch. Anyone know? Pete On 27/03/14 09:22, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > Nigel > early in the Europa story someome built a tank using vinyl ester > resin, double skinned with a foam > (acylic?) core. May have been more than one, it was offered as a mod I > think. > Mike Costin who came from the racing car world built an aluminium tank. > Graham > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thursday, 27 March 2014, 8:23 > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod > > " > > > I think that given a free choice, a plastic tank is the right way to > go. Nearly all cars now use this material as is doesn't corrode, it's > dimensionally stable, durable and crash tolerant. > > The problem with the Europa tank is that it was made from the wrong > material and (unbeknown to the factory at the time) absorbed fuel and > distorted. Also unexpected was the strength with which epoxy resin > bonded to the tank. If built according to instructions, the tank could > move, but some enthusiastic builders piled on the laminations that > created stress risers which, after the passage of time, caused the > plastic to fracture. > Since we have no (cost effective) way to re-manufacture the tank out > of a suitable plastic, the only options are to replace it with "more > of the same" - meaning that in another ten years it could fail again, > or revert to the material of choice for aircraft designers over the > years - alumin(i)um. > This may not be the optimum material (as other posters have outlined), > but it is the next best option for home-builders wanting to create a > "one-off" that is light weight and (if mounted correctly) fatigue > resistant. > > Fibreglass (chopped-strand-mat/polyester resin) is a non-starter as it > hardens over life and becomes extremely brittle. This was banned for > use on motorcycles in the UK over forty years ago as any accident > almost inevitably resulted in a fireball. > > One avenue that does not seem to have been explored is the use of > flexible "fuel bladders" as used in the car racing world. > > Nigel > > On 27/03/2014 00:24, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > > > > > Just to play devil's advocate, whats the attraction of an aluminum > > fuel tank over a plastic one, or a fiberglass one? > > > > I am familiar with the problems with Europa's plastic tank, but that > > does not mean aluminum is better. You are trading off one problem for > > another. > > > > On that thought, can a tank be 3D printed? > &gmany List utilities such as List -> http://forums.matronics.com > http://ww====================== > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:06 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless wrote: > given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a large original batch. > > Anyone know? I certainly do not =93know=94, but it has been my understanding that at some point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a hi-density material=85can anyone can confirm that? Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track the kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc. Fred ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:03 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod ...and whether they have been post-florinated/treated beyond the factory's treatment :-) I thought the only change the factory made was to start florinating in the late 90's. I can only imagine that the original non-florinated tanks must have swollen up like balloons. cheers, Pete A239 On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Fred Klein wrote: > > On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless wrote: > > given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made > of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same > 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something > different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a > large original batch. > > Anyone know? > > > I certainly do not "know", but it has been my understanding that at some > point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a hi-density > material...can anyone can confirm that? > > Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track the > kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have > failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem > pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc. > > Fred > > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:53 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod From: "rparigoris" Hi Group Curiosity question about plastic fuel tank for Europa: ** Has anyone had a problem with the long range fuel tank swelling or leaking? ** Do you leave the tank empty between uses? Thx. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421147#421147 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:00 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Ron, mine ,(kit 402 dating from around 1999) has swelled a bit as viewed through the spar tunnel, to almost touch but not interfere with the aileron linkage bar. No leaks. Has had roughly equal quantities of Avgas & Mogas + UL 91 for the last 2 yrs Never emptied between times. Never found any water in it. i.e. No problems. Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ On Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:23:20 -0700 "rparigoris" wrote: > > > Hi Group > > Curiosity question about plastic fuel tank for Europa: > > ** Has anyone had a problem with the long range fuel >tank swelling or leaking? > ** Do you leave the tank empty between uses? > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421147#421147 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:22 AM PST US From: "Arnold Kr. Hansen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Hi Group, I can confirm that my non-fluorinated tank swelled and cracked. Removing the tank, I learned to my surprise that the HDPE material had become very brittle. That was not the case when I installed the fuel level sensor. Before buying a new fluorinated tank from Europa, I searched the net for information about HDPE tanks used in cars. What I found was that these tanks were fluorinated and in addition given a final inside layer of nylon to become 100% tight. I decided therefore not to buy a new tank from Europa, but instead build an aluminium tank. Best regards Arnold Kr. Hansen Europa XS LN ABM _____ Fra: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] P=E5 vegne av Peter Zutrauen Sendt: 27. mars 2014 17:09 Til: europa-list Emne: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod ...and whether they have been post-florinated/treated beyond the factory's treatment :-) I thought the only change the factory made was to start florinating in the late 90's. I can only imagine that the original non-florinated tanks must have swollen up like balloons. cheers, Pete A239 On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Fred Klein wrote: On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless wrote: given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a large original batch. Anyone know? I certainly do not =93know=94, but it has been my understanding that at some point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a hi-density material=85can anyone can confirm that? Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track the kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc. Fred arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:49 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Europa-List: to all you Spitfire aficionados... enjoy https://www.youtube.com/embed/ie3SrjLlcUY do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:02 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod If you go to Sun & Fun ask Ivan. There won't be any of the originals now, I 'm pretty sure.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Arnold Kr. Hansen =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, 27 March 2014, 17:53=0ASubject: SV: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AHi Group,=0A=C2-=0AI can confirm that my=0Anon-fluorinated tank swelled and cracked. Removing the tank, I learned to my=0Asurprise that the HDPE material had become very brittle. That was not the case=0Awhen I installed the fuel level sensor. Before buying a new fluorinated tank=0Afrom Europa, I searched the net for information about HD PE tanks used in cars. What=0AI found was that these tanks were fluorinated and in addition given a final=0Ainside layer of nylon to become 100% tight . I decided therefore not to buy a=0Anew tank from Europa, but instead buil d an aluminium tank.=0A=C2-=0ABest regards=0AArnold Kr. Hansen=0AEuropa X S LN ABM=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFra:owner-eur opa-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics. com] P=C3=A5 vegne av Peter Zutrauen=0ASendt: 27. mars 2014 17:09=0ATil: eu ropa-list=0AEmne: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel=0ATank Kiwi Mod=0A=C2-=0A. ..and whether they have=0Abeen post-florinated/treated beyond the factory's treatment=C2- :-)=0AI thought the only change the factory made was to st art florinating in=0Athe late 90's.=C2- I can only imagine that the origi nal non-florinated tanks=0Amust have swollen up like balloons.=0A=0Acheers, =0APete=0AA239=0A=C2-=0AOn Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Fred Klein =0Awrote:=0A=C2-=0AOn Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless =0Awrote:=0A=0A=0Agiven that the original Europa supplied tanks were=0Aknown to have been made of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make=0Atanks from the same 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of=0Asomething different.=C2- It may be that E uropa are still working their way=0Athrough a large original batch.=0A=0AAn yone know?=0A=C2-=0AI certainly do not =9Cknow=9D, but it has been my understanding=0Athat at some point Europa changed from the origina l lo-density material to a=0Ahi-density materialcan anyone can con firm that?=0A=C2-=0AApropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track=0Athe kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of tho se tanks which have=0Afailed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem pertinent=0Asuch as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc.=0A=C2-=0AFred=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Aarg et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0Atp://forums. matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=C2-=0A =C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A =============== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: to all you Spitfire aficionados... From: Tony Renshaw Yep, Really enjoyed watching it. Cool hand Luke sort of fella. What a plane. I want to go fly one now. TR On 28 Mar 2014, at 5:50 am, Fred Klein wrote: > > enjoy > > https://www.youtube.com/embed/ie3SrjLlcUY > > do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:28 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod I fluorinated my crica 2000 tank and its been filled with mogas for nearly 3 months and I don't see any sign of swelling. However, its been cold this winter, and my theory is that these tanks absorb fuel when hot which can happen during hot summer months. Most of the tank failures I have heard of have come from warmer climates. On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > ...and whether they have been post-florinated/treated beyond the factory's > treatment :-) > > I thought the only change the factory made was to start florinating in the > late 90's. I can only imagine that the original non-florinated tanks must > have swollen up like balloons. > > cheers, > Pete > A239 > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Fred Klein wrote: >> >> >> On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless wrote: >> >> given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made >> of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same >> 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something >> different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a >> large original batch. >> >> Anyone know? >> >> >> I certainly do not "know", but it has been my understanding that at some >> point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a hi-density >> material...can anyone can confirm that? >> >> Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track the >> kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have >> failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem >> pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc. >> >> Fred >> >> >> >> >> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.