Europa-List Digest Archive

Sat 03/29/14


Total Messages Posted: 15



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 02:08 AM - Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (spcialeffects)
     2. 02:11 AM - 914 Fuel flow meter instalation. (Alan Carter)
     3. 02:23 AM - SV: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Arnold Kr. Hansen)
     4. 02:29 AM - Re: 914 Fuel flow meter instalation. (David Joyce)
     5. 02:33 AM - Re: SV: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (spcialeffects)
     6. 03:43 AM - Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk)
     7. 04:38 AM - Re: SV: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Pete)
     8. 08:42 AM - Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Andrew Sarangan)
     9. 09:07 AM - Rotax 912uls with woodcomp 3000 prop (William Bliss)
    10. 09:13 AM - Re: SV: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (William Daniell)
    11. 09:17 AM - Re: SV: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (William Daniell)
    12. 10:06 AM - Re: 914 Fuel flow meter instalation. (Alan Carter)
    13. 10:07 AM - SV: Re: SV: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Arnold Kr. Hansen)
    14. 10:42 AM - Re: Rotax 912uls with woodcomp 3000 prop (Rowland Carson)
    15. 05:49 PM - Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod (Fred Klein)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 02:08:28 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
    From: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects@aol.com>
    I copied this idea from someone else, think i saw it on the europa org site so all credit to them. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421233#421233 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/swollen_tank_161.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cradle_lay_up_208.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/trimed_and_ready_122.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/gap_behind_tank_165.jpg


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:11:47 AM PST US
    Subject: 914 Fuel flow meter instalation.
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hello All My engine is the 914 turbo charged engine. I have an MGL Flow Meter Gauge. Two Floscan Model 201A-6 Flow Senders, rated up to 30 gallons per hour. These are approved by the LAA and my flow is well within there range. The pipe work is 8mm hose. and I have mounted brackets for the senders with a good 6 inches of straight flow, with wire vertically out of the top as manual. Seems to go : Fuel. Tank>Tank Selector>Gasolator (all filters removed and Gasolator fitted with Mod approval in log book years ago)> Fuel Pumps (Will be Senders)> Firewall >engine. 1, have looked down the tunnel and see a mass of hoses, I need to find the Main flow and Return flow hoses, ( I don,t want to cut my pipes at the moment as I am still flying, and will leave this till the day my inspector comes and finishes off the job but want it all set up ready) So how do I find the flow and return hose, maybe from the engine end,???? 2. I have noticed the pipes are 8 mm, and see the holes in the senders are only about 1/8 inch in diameter, seems a bit small to me, any comment,?? Many Thanks Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421234#421234


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:23:53 AM PST US
    From: "Arnold Kr. Hansen" <arno-k@online.no>
    Subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
    Hello everybody interested in this topic, According to my own experience two phenomenon happened to the HDPE material in my tank; it swelled but also became very brittle. I had to remove the tank in pieces. During that process I observed several small cracks in areas, outside bonding areas, that had been subjected to bending stresses due to bulging. I could easily make a crack in the material with a sharp knife. The material was no longer the tough one I learned to know when drilling several small holes to make the hole for the fuel level sensor. Therefore I think this phenomenon is a contributing factor to the cracking of the tanks. The swelling will not necessarily lead to an even expansion of the tank. Therefore bending stresses in the material can occur without any external forces acting. And since the material has become very brittle, it can crack and make a leakage. Best regards Arnold Kr. Hansen LN ABM -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] P vegne av spcialeffects Sendt: 28. mars 2014 21:42 Til: europa-list@matronics.com Emne: Re: Europa-List: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Hello stephan. Well I put off bonding in my cockpit module because of this very subject as it seemed that quite a few reports of tanks splitting we're emerging just as I was about to bond in my tank. I filled my tank with fuel for 6 months prior to bonding it in and yes it does swell by quite abit but I think this is not only due to fuel getting into the actual material but the weight of the fuel. What I gathered from everything I read was that the tanks were splitting due to being bonded into the module tight against the cockpit wall this giving the tank no we're to swell once filled with fuel. I made a cradle for the tank to sit in and bonded that to the cockpit so my tank is actually "floating" in place. I will post a few pics later. Hope that helps. Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421209#421209


    Message 4


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    Time: 02:29:15 AM PST US
    From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
    Subject: Re: 914 Fuel flow meter instalation.
    Alan, you can trace them back from the engine end or see which one comes out of the fuel selector (= out) & which goes into reserve side of tank(= return). Hopefully you will get the same answer. On my 914 identical installation gives flow rates substantially over max engine fuel demand. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 02:10:09 -0700 "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote: ><alancarteresq@onetel.net> > > Hello All > My engine is the 914 turbo charged engine. > I have an MGL Flow Meter Gauge. > Two Floscan Model 201A-6 Flow Senders, rated up to 30 >gallons per hour. > These are approved by the LAA and my flow is well within >there range. > The pipe work is 8mm hose. and I have mounted brackets >for the senders with a good 6 inches of straight flow, >with wire vertically out of the top as manual. > > Seems to go : Fuel. Tank>Tank Selector>Gasolator (all >filters removed and Gasolator fitted with Mod approval in >log book years ago)> Fuel Pumps (Will be Senders)> >Firewall >engine. > > 1, have looked down the tunnel and see a mass of hoses, >I need to find the Main flow and Return flow hoses, ( I >don,t want to cut my pipes at the moment as I am still >flying, and will leave this till the day my inspector >comes and finishes off the job but want it all set up >ready) > So how do I find the flow and return hose, maybe from >the engine end,???? > > 2. I have noticed the pipes are 8 mm, and see the holes >in the senders are only about 1/8 inch in diameter, seems >a bit small to me, any comment,?? > > Many Thanks > Alan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421234#421234 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 02:33:59 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: SV: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
    From: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects@aol.com>
    Before your tank failed did you leave it dry between flights or over the winter? When I say dry I mean with no fuel on it? As I think this is also a factor Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421237#421237


    Message 6


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    Time: 03:43:32 AM PST US
    From: "nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
    Fred et al, Back in 2010, Ian Rickard produced this excellent drawing (attached) of the Europa tank. This indicates that the material is medium density polyethylene, flourine treated (the process that makes epoxy stick so well to it). Ian has indicated when and where various changes were made over time. Nigel On 27/03/2014 15:43, Fred Klein wrote: > > On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info > <mailto:pete@lawless.info>> wrote: > >> given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been >> made of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from >> the same 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of >> something different. It may be that Europa are still working their >> way through a large original batch. >> >> Anyone know? > > I certainly do not know, but it has been my understanding that at > some point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a > hi-density materialcan anyone can confirm that? > > Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track > the kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which > have failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may > seem pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while > empty, etc. > > Fred > > > * > > > *


    Message 7


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    Time: 04:38:01 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
    From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
    Which is why (when using mogas) the fluorination treatment is so important, and why I believe the factory level of fluorination may be inadequate. There are companies who do fluorinate for a fee ( search the archives for info ). Cheers, Pete A239 > On Mar 29, 2014, at 5:22 AM, "Arnold Kr. Hansen" <arno-k@online.no> wrote: > > > Hello everybody interested in this topic, > > According to my own experience two phenomenon happened to the HDPE material > in my tank; it swelled but also became very brittle. > > I had to remove the tank in pieces. During that process I observed several > small cracks in areas, outside bonding areas, that had been subjected to > bending stresses due to bulging. I could easily make a crack in the material > with a sharp knife. The material was no longer the tough one I learned to > know when drilling several small holes to make the hole for the fuel level > sensor. > > Therefore I think this phenomenon is a contributing factor to the cracking > of the tanks. The swelling will not necessarily lead to an even expansion of > the tank. Therefore bending stresses in the material can occur without any > external forces acting. And since the material has become very brittle, it > can crack and make a leakage. > > Best regards > Arnold Kr. Hansen > LN ABM > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] P vegne av spcialeffects > Sendt: 28. mars 2014 21:42 > Til: europa-list@matronics.com > Emne: Re: Europa-List: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod > > > Hello stephan. Well I put off bonding in my cockpit module because of this > very subject as it seemed that quite a few reports of tanks splitting we're > emerging just as I was about to bond in my tank. I filled my tank with fuel > for 6 months prior to bonding it in and yes it does swell by quite abit but > I think this is not only due to fuel getting into the actual material but > the weight of the fuel. What I gathered from everything I read was that the > tanks were splitting due to being bonded into the module tight against the > cockpit wall this giving the tank no we're to swell once filled with fuel. I > made a cradle for the tank to sit in and bonded that to the cockpit so my > tank is actually "floating" in place. I will post a few pics later. Hope > that helps. Frank > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421209#421209 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:42:20 AM PST US
    From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
    Your cradle idea is a good one. I am doing something similar right now. One thing I noticed with your setup is that the tank could potentially pivot and tip forward under weight. The cradle may need an additional support at the forward end. In my case, I am bonding the cradle to both bulkheads (seat back and baggage bay), creating a sturdy raised floor for the tank to rest on. Like yours, I also have lateral and fore-aft support to hold the tank in place. I don't have pictures yet, but will have some soon. On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:07 AM, spcialeffects <spcialeffects@aol.com> wrote: > > I copied this idea from someone else, think i saw it on the europa org site so all credit to them. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421233#421233 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/swollen_tank_161.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/cradle_lay_up_208.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/trimed_and_ready_122.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/gap_behind_tank_165.jpg > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 09:07:29 AM PST US
    From: William Bliss <william@wbliss.co.uk>
    Subject: Rotax 912uls with woodcomp 3000 prop
    Is any one operating a permit Europa with Rotax 912uls driving a Woodcomp 3000 prop? I would appreciate some advice and if possible a mod number to support my mod application with LAA. Thanks Will Bliss G-WUFF


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:13:50 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
    From: William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
    A relevant question while we are on the subject. My tank dates from 2003. Everything is in and I am planning to close the fuselage. I have understood that once filled (except for the comments about the aux tank) with fuel it's better to leave the tank full. However I would like to check the fuel system for two reasons, one to check that it all works and the other is that if it does split I am thinking that the major surgery will be easier without the top on. Is it a good idea to do this before closure bearing in mind that it will take be another 18 months (ha!) before flying?....or should I just hope for the best? thanks Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote: > > Which is why (when using mogas) the fluorination treatment is so > important, and why I believe the factory level of fluorination may be > inadequate. There are companies who do fluorinate for a fee ( search the > archives for info ). > > Cheers, > Pete > A239 > > > On Mar 29, 2014, at 5:22 AM, "Arnold Kr. Hansen" <arno-k@online.no> > wrote: > > o > > > > > > Hello everybody interested in this topic, > > > > According to my own experience two phenomenon happened to the HDPE > material > > in my tank; it swelled but also became very brittle. > > > > I had to remove the tank in pieces. During that process I observed > several > > small cracks in areas, outside bonding areas, that had been subjected t o > > bending stresses due to bulging. I could easily make a crack in the > material > > with a sharp knife. The material was no longer the tough one I learned to > > know when drilling several small holes to make the hole for the fuel > level > > sensor. > > > > Therefore I think this phenomenon is a contributing factor to the > cracking > > of the tanks. The swelling will not necessarily lead to an even > expansion of > > the tank. Therefore bending stresses in the material can occur without > any > > external forces acting. And since the material has become very brittle, > it > > can crack and make a leakage. > > > > Best regards > > Arnold Kr. Hansen > > LN ABM > > > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > > Fra: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] P=E5 vegne av > spcialeffects > > Sendt: 28. mars 2014 21:42 > > Til: europa-list@matronics.com > > Emne: Re: Europa-List: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod > > > spcialeffects@aol.com> > > > > Hello stephan. Well I put off bonding in my cockpit module because of > this > > very subject as it seemed that quite a few reports of tanks splitting > we're > > emerging just as I was about to bond in my tank. I filled my tank with > fuel > > for 6 months prior to bonding it in and yes it does swell by quite abit > but > > I think this is not only due to fuel getting into the actual material b ut > > the weight of the fuel. What I gathered from everything I read was that > the > > tanks were splitting due to being bonded into the module tight against > the > > cockpit wall this giving the tank no we're to swell once filled with > fuel. I > > made a cradle for the tank to sit in and bonded that to the cockpit so my > > tank is actually "floating" in place. I will post a few pics later. Hop e > > that helps. Frank > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421209#421209 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:17:43 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
    From: William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
    PS... i see from one of the posts that Mogas causes brittleness....so I infer from this that AvGas does not? This is relevant because Mogas here is poor quality so I use 100% Avgas Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 11:11 AM, William Daniell < wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote: > A relevant question while we are on the subject. > > My tank dates from 2003. Everything is in and I am planning to close the > fuselage. I have understood that once filled (except for the comments > about the aux tank) with fuel it's better to leave the tank full. > > However I would like to check the fuel system for two reasons, one to > check that it all works and the other is that if it does split I am > thinking that the major surgery will be easier without the top on. > > Is it a good idea to do this before closure bearing in mind that it will > take be another 18 months (ha!) before flying?....or should I just hope f or > the best? > > thanks > > Will > > William Daniell > LONGPORT > +57 310 295 0744 > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote: > >> >> Which is why (when using mogas) the fluorination treatment is so >> important, and why I believe the factory level of fluorination may be >> inadequate. There are companies who do fluorinate for a fee ( search the >> archives for info ). >> >> Cheers, >> Pete >> A239 >> >> > On Mar 29, 2014, at 5:22 AM, "Arnold Kr. Hansen" <arno-k@online.no> >> wrote: >> > >> arno-k@online.no> >> > >> > Hello everybody interested in this topic, >> > >> > According to my own experience two phenomenon happened to the HDPE >> material >> > in my tank; it swelled but also became very brittle. >> > >> > I had to remove the tank in pieces. During that process I observed >> several >> > small cracks in areas, outside bonding areas, that had been subjected to >> > bending stresses due to bulging. I could easily make a crack in the >> material >> > with a sharp knife. The material was no longer the tough one I learned >> to >> > know when drilling several small holes to make the hole for the fuel >> level >> > sensor. >> > >> > Therefore I think this phenomenon is a contributing factor to the >> cracking >> > of the tanks. The swelling will not necessarily lead to an even >> expansion of >> > the tank. Therefore bending stresses in the material can occur without >> any >> > external forces acting. And since the material has become very brittle , >> it >> > can crack and make a leakage. >> > >> > Best regards >> > Arnold Kr. Hansen >> > LN ABM >> > >> > -----Opprinnelig melding----- >> > Fra: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] P=E5 vegne av >> spcialeffects >> > Sendt: 28. mars 2014 21:42 >> > Til: europa-list@matronics.com >> > Emne: Re: Europa-List: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod >> > >> spcialeffects@aol.com> >> > >> > Hello stephan. Well I put off bonding in my cockpit module because of >> this >> > very subject as it seemed that quite a few reports of tanks splitting >> we're >> > emerging just as I was about to bond in my tank. I filled my tank with >> fuel >> > for 6 months prior to bonding it in and yes it does swell by quite abi t >> but >> > I think this is not only due to fuel getting into the actual material >> but >> > the weight of the fuel. What I gathered from everything I read was tha t >> the >> > tanks were splitting due to being bonded into the module tight against >> the >> > cockpit wall this giving the tank no we're to swell once filled with >> fuel. I >> > made a cradle for the tank to sit in and bonded that to the cockpit so >> my >> > tank is actually "floating" in place. I will post a few pics later. Ho pe >> > that helps. Frank >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421209#421209 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> =========== =========== =========== =========== >> >> >> >> >


    Message 12


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    Time: 10:06:46 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: 914 Fuel flow meter instalation.
    From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
    Hi David, Can't see my last post. will do it again if it does not show up.!!!! However if I had built the plane I would have placed the flow pipe the higher clip along the tunnel and the return running below it. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421259#421259


    Message 13


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    Time: 10:07:51 AM PST US
    From: "Arnold Kr. Hansen" <arno-k@online.no>
    Subject: Re: SV: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
    It was left partly filled during winter. -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] P vegne av spcialeffects Sendt: 29. mars 2014 10:33 Til: europa-list@matronics.com Emne: Europa-List: Re: SV: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Before your tank failed did you leave it dry between flights or over the winter? When I say dry I mean with no fuel on it? As I think this is also a factor Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421237#421237


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:42:39 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rotax 912uls with woodcomp 3000 prop
    From: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson@gmail.com>
    On 29 Mar 2014, at 16:05, William Bliss wrote: > Is any one operating a permit Europa with Rotax 912uls driving a Woodcomp 3000 prop? I would appreciate some advice and if possible a mod number to support my mod application with LAA. Will - that's my setup (with the high-twist blades) but I haven't got to the stage of connecting those parts together yet so I haven't investigated the mod situation. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson


    Message 15


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    Time: 05:49:05 PM PST US
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    Subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
    On Mar 29, 2014, at 9:11 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote: > My tank dates from 2003. Everything is in and I am planning to close the fuselage. I have understood that once filled (except for the comments about the aux tank) with fuel it's better to leave the tank full. > > However I would like to check the fuel system for two reasons, one to check that it all works and the other is that if it does split I am thinking that the major surgery will be easier without the top on. > > Is it a good idea to do this before closure bearing in mind that it will take be another 18 months (ha!) before flying?....or should I just hope for the best? Will, FWIW, I pondered the same question=85in my case, the problems w/ the fuel tank arose after I=92d bonded my CM into the canoe. I reasoned first that all Europas were not experiencing the leaks in the fuel tank, and that the leaks were occurring after considerable flight times. I concluded that the best way forward for me was to keep the tank dry until engine test / taxi trials and proceed w/ the build w/o delay. I also concluded that replacement of the tank, though a somewhat nasty process, would not be significantly different w/ or w/o the top on, and I am prepared to trouble-shoot the fuel system for leaks when I=92m ready for engine tests. Thus far, considering the passage of time and multiple hazards of having fuel in the aircraft during construction, I=92m content w/ following this strategy. My only regret is my clear recollection of questioning the build manual=92s instructions for bonding the tank into the CM, then NOT raising the issue for discussion on this forum, and telling myself =93if it=92s in the manual, it must be correct=94. Onward, Fred




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