Today's Message Index:
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1. 01:08 AM - Re: AW: AW: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany (John Wighton)
2. 02:10 AM - Re: AW: AW: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany (JonSmith)
3. 04:37 AM - Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce)
4. 05:22 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
5. 06:07 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?AW:__Re:_Europa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?/Germany? (Harald Linke)
6. 06:32 AM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L?= =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany? (houlihan)
7. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: thottle gadget thingy (William Daniell)
8. 11:39 AM - Re: Borglanda fly in (stephan cassel)
9. 02:32 PM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
10. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce)
11. 05:45 PM - Re: Twitter/facebook (craig)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany |
The Europa has very little provision for crashworthiness. The split in the front
would have occurred at the time of the impact. The rescue services may have
chopped the cockpit hoop and some of the other structure to gain access to the
occupants.
Having conducted many years of work on aircraft structures, including a thesis
on aircraft light crashworthiness, it is very difficult to include enough protection
for the occupants without incurring a weight penalty that makes the aeroplane
inefficient.
It looks like the aircraft pancaked in this would generate high compresion in the
tunnel and fuselage side at the forward cockpit causing compressive de lamination.
As the aircraft settled this would have opened.
A structural box beam, picking up the engine mount and going aft beyond the crew
seats may have helped distribute the landing loads. In this case the next issue
would be to ensure the occupants movement forward and down did not cause
excessive injuries. The belt mounts on the Europa are not ideally placed to afford
good protection.
For the Flyer magazine Europa one of the proposed mods was to reinforce the forward
canopy frame with carbon to provide support in case of a roll-over. I am
not certain that this was done prior to the project being sold and subsequently
finished.
At the end of the day the accumulation of optimal design features can make a significant
improvement in crashworthiness, some of these good practices are being
embodied in new aircraft eg the LAA has championed some features (such as good
harness placement and energy absorbing seat bases).
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423104#423104
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany |
It has obviously impacted the ground very hard for reasons I am certainly not going
to speculate about. I feel the survivability in any aircraft under the circumstances
would be problematical - indeed I feel it stands testament to the
Europa design that one person at least was able to survive. Personally I feel
more comfortable in my Europa than any other aircraft.
--------
G-TERN
Classic Mono
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423105#423105
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? |
I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS
or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce,
G-XSDJ
On Sat, 10 May 2014 02:10:05 -0700
"JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
><jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> It has obviously impacted the ground very hard for
>reasons I am certainly not going to speculate about. I
>feel the survivability in any aircraft under the
>circumstances would be problematical - indeed I feel it
>stands testament to the Europa design that one person at
>least was able to survive. Personally I feel more
>comfortable in my Europa than any other aircraft.
>
> --------
> G-TERN
> Classic Mono
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423105#423105
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck/Germany? |
Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20
seconds too late.=0AVery sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very n
ice man and a nice Europa.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0A From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@
matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36=0ASubject: Re: Europa-L
ist: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message post
ed by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A=0A=0AI strongly suspect
that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved
them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: o-8859-1?Q?AW:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck?= |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?/Germany?
Dear Graham,
it=92s a tragedy. I know Manfred over a long period from the
Lubeck/Hamburg
Europa group as well as the CFI Peter V., who was a flight instructor in
the
Lubeck flying club over more than 40 years.
In february I met Peter in our Ahrensburg Sauna. He told me from the
very
first flight with Manfred=92s Europa D-EMJO. She flew very nice, he
said. yet
we don=92t know, why the airplane made a sharp turn in about 300 feet
after
departure.
Live is always a challenge.
We here hope, that Manfred would overcome the fight against .
Best greetings to you and Joan
Harald
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Gesendet: Samstag, 10. Mai 2014 14:20
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany
Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always
20
seconds too late.
Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a
nice
Europa.
Graham
_____
From: David Joyce < <mailto:davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany
<davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the
equivalent
might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Message 6
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| Subject: | =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L?= |
=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany?
Hi Graham.
I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate
what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?
I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed
of light at times.
Tim
On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>wrot
e:
> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 2
0
> seconds too late.
> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice
> Europa.
> Graham
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
>
> davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
>
> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the
> equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
> *
>
===========
tronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: thottle gadget thingy |
Kelvin
great idea thanks
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Kelvin Weston <kelv@kdweston.biz> wrote:
>
> Hi Will
>
> I had the same problem with the metal washers rotating against the nuts.
> The required friction surfaces should be between the lever/plastic washer
> and/or plastic washer/metal washer combination and NOT between the metal
> washers and the nuts.
> I binned the two AN970-4 washers and made two oval shaped stainless
> plates, same thickness, that extended down into the bottom of the throttle
> housing. I adjusted the shape and size so that they contact the throttle
> housing thus stopping any rotation.
> An additional benefit is the plates provide added support for the pivot
> bolt preventing downwards and sideways movement of the throttle lever if
> used with a heavy hand.
>
> --------
> Regards
>
> Kelv Weston
> Kit 497
> kelv@kdweston.biz
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423086#423086
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Borglanda fly in |
Hi,
There are participants from different parts of Europe:
4 fromLuxenburg ( One Eurpoa MG) - Booked hotel
1(2) from France
4 from Sweden
3 from Norway - Booked hotel and will rigg tent
2 from UK (I hope Dave Bossenworth is able to participate as usual)
One thing for sure: Excellent food on Saturday:
http://www.robinsoncrusoe.se/restaurang-borgholm/index.php
Best regards
Stephan
LN-STE
Message 9
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| Subject: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck/Germany?
Tim=0Adon't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraf
t has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.=0AWhen
it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.=0AGraham
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: houlihan <houlihan
@blueyonder.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 10 Ma
y 2014, 14:31=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Eur
opa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Graham.=0A=0AI think you may h
ave put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are sug
gesting but 20 seconds ?=0AI bet the real figure is much less than a second
.=0AMind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the sp
eed of light at times.=0A=0ATim=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM
SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A=0AOr an AoA meter as p
rimary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.=0A
>Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice
Europa.=0A>Graham=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>______________________________
__=0A> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>To: europa-list@mat
ronics.com =0A>Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36=0A>Subject: Re: Europa-Li
st: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A> =0A>=0A>--> Europa-List message po
sted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>=0A>=0A>I strongly su
spect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have
saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>arget="_blank">http:/
/www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_bla
====
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa |
Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany?
Graham, Are you sure you are not thinking about a
variometer rather than an ASI? You can compare your aSI
with a GPS readout and the two closely parallel each other
(allowing for wind) i would not expect significant lag on
an ASI. But quite apart from that the SmartASS is so
effective (as no doubt are the better forms of AOA system)
because it gives you phased warnings in unignorable form
that you are departing from your chosen safe approach
speed, alerting you long before you get to the stall. You
might wonder what an approach speed has got to do with an
EFATO sort of incident, but if she (the nice lady inside
the SmartASS) is set for an approach speed of 60kts then
she wakes up automatically in any phase of flight if you
get down to within a few percent of 60kts, and gets very
aggravated long before you get anywhere near 40 kts.
Regards, David Joyce
On Sat, 10 May 2014 22:28:31 +0100 (BST)
GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Tim
> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!)
>until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down
>and that takes many seconds.
> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not
>a lot of use.
> Graham
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: houlihan <houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
>Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>
>
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong
>place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20
>seconds ?
> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.
> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to
>move at the speed of light at times.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON
><grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument.
>The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.
>>Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very
>>nice man and a nice Europa.
>>Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>> From: David Joyce <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36
>>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany
>>
>>
>><davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>>
>>
>>I strongly suspect that this another case where a
>>SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both.
>>David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>>
>>
>>
>>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _bla====
Message 11
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| Subject: | Twitter/facebook |
Hate Facebook and twitter
Regards
craig
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
f.kyle@sympatico.ca
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 12:22 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Twitter/facebook
Cheers,
Having read about the manipulation of data on both of these, and their
inherent limitations, I will not "sign into, subscribe or join" either of
them - but will continue to support the Europalist as manfully constructed
by Matt Dralle.
The only thing to change is underwear.
Ferg C-FFGG
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