---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/10/14: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:08 AM - Re: AW: AW: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany (John Wighton) 2. 02:10 AM - Re: AW: AW: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany (JonSmith) 3. 04:37 AM - Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce) 4. 05:22 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 5. 06:07 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?AW:__Re:_Europa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?/Germany? (Harald Linke) 6. 06:32 AM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L?= =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany? (houlihan) 7. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: thottle gadget thingy (William Daniell) 8. 11:39 AM - Re: Borglanda fly in (stephan cassel) 9. 02:32 PM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 10. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce) 11. 05:45 PM - Re: Twitter/facebook (craig) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: AW: AW: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany From: "John Wighton" The Europa has very little provision for crashworthiness. The split in the front would have occurred at the time of the impact. The rescue services may have chopped the cockpit hoop and some of the other structure to gain access to the occupants. Having conducted many years of work on aircraft structures, including a thesis on aircraft light crashworthiness, it is very difficult to include enough protection for the occupants without incurring a weight penalty that makes the aeroplane inefficient. It looks like the aircraft pancaked in this would generate high compresion in the tunnel and fuselage side at the forward cockpit causing compressive de lamination. As the aircraft settled this would have opened. A structural box beam, picking up the engine mount and going aft beyond the crew seats may have helped distribute the landing loads. In this case the next issue would be to ensure the occupants movement forward and down did not cause excessive injuries. The belt mounts on the Europa are not ideally placed to afford good protection. For the Flyer magazine Europa one of the proposed mods was to reinforce the forward canopy frame with carbon to provide support in case of a roll-over. I am not certain that this was done prior to the project being sold and subsequently finished. At the end of the day the accumulation of optimal design features can make a significant improvement in crashworthiness, some of these good practices are being embodied in new aircraft eg the LAA has championed some features (such as good harness placement and energy absorbing seat bases). -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423104#423104 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:10:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: AW: AW: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany From: "JonSmith" It has obviously impacted the ground very hard for reasons I am certainly not going to speculate about. I feel the survivability in any aircraft under the circumstances would be problematical - indeed I feel it stands testament to the Europa design that one person at least was able to survive. Personally I feel more comfortable in my Europa than any other aircraft. -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423105#423105 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:28 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Sat, 10 May 2014 02:10:05 -0700 "JonSmith" wrote: > > > It has obviously impacted the ground very hard for >reasons I am certainly not going to speculate about. I >feel the survivability in any aircraft under the >circumstances would be problematical - indeed I feel it >stands testament to the Europa design that one person at >least was able to survive. Personally I feel more >comfortable in my Europa than any other aircraft. > > -------- > G-TERN > Classic Mono > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423105#423105 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:55 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Europa-List: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck/Germany? Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.=0AVery sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very n ice man and a nice Europa.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________________ _______=0A From: David Joyce =0ATo: europa-list@ matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36=0ASubject: Re: Europa-L ist: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message post ed by: "David Joyce" =0A=0A=0AI strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:40 AM PST US From: "Harald Linke" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?AW:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?/Germany? Dear Graham, it=92s a tragedy. I know Manfred over a long period from the Lubeck/Hamburg Europa group as well as the CFI Peter V., who was a flight instructor in the Lubeck flying club over more than 40 years. In february I met Peter in our Ahrensburg Sauna. He told me from the very first flight with Manfred=92s Europa D-EMJO. She flew very nice, he said. yet we don=92t know, why the airplane made a sharp turn in about 300 feet after departure. Live is always a challenge. We here hope, that Manfred would overcome the fight against . Best greetings to you and Joan Harald Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von GRAHAM SINGLETON Gesendet: Samstag, 10. Mai 2014 14:20 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late. Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa. Graham _____ From: David Joyce < davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:29 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L?= =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany? From: houlihan Hi Graham. I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ? I bet the real figure is much less than a second. Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times. Tim On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrot e: > Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 2 0 > seconds too late. > Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice > Europa. > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Joyce > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36 > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > > davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> > > > I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the > equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > * > =========== tronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: thottle gadget thingy From: William Daniell Kelvin great idea thanks Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Kelvin Weston wrote: > > Hi Will > > I had the same problem with the metal washers rotating against the nuts. > The required friction surfaces should be between the lever/plastic washer > and/or plastic washer/metal washer combination and NOT between the metal > washers and the nuts. > I binned the two AN970-4 washers and made two oval shaped stainless > plates, same thickness, that extended down into the bottom of the throttle > housing. I adjusted the shape and size so that they contact the throttle > housing thus stopping any rotation. > An additional benefit is the plates provide added support for the pivot > bolt preventing downwards and sideways movement of the throttle lever if > used with a heavy hand. > > -------- > Regards > > Kelv Weston > Kit 497 > kelv@kdweston.biz > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423086#423086 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:39:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Borglanda fly in From: stephan cassel Hi, There are participants from different parts of Europe: 4 fromLuxenburg ( One Eurpoa MG) - Booked hotel 1(2) from France 4 from Sweden 3 from Norway - Booked hotel and will rigg tent 2 from UK (I hope Dave Bossenworth is able to participate as usual) One thing for sure: Excellent food on Saturday: http://www.robinsoncrusoe.se/restaurang-borgholm/index.php Best regards Stephan LN-STE ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:21 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Europa-List: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=FCbeck/Germany? Tim=0Adon't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraf t has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.=0AWhen it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.=0AGraham =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: houlihan =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Saturday, 10 Ma y 2014, 14:31=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Eur opa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Graham.=0A=0AI think you may h ave put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are sug gesting but 20 seconds ?=0AI bet the real figure is much less than a second .=0AMind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the sp eed of light at times.=0A=0ATim=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A=0AOr an AoA meter as p rimary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.=0A >Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa.=0A>Graham=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>______________________________ __=0A> From: David Joyce =0A>To: europa-list@mat ronics.com =0A>Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36=0A>Subject: Re: Europa-Li st: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A> =0A>=0A>--> Europa-List message po sted by: "David Joyce" =0A>=0A>=0A>I strongly su spect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>arget="_blank">http:/ /www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_bla ==== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:59 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany? Graham, Are you sure you are not thinking about a variometer rather than an ASI? You can compare your aSI with a GPS readout and the two closely parallel each other (allowing for wind) i would not expect significant lag on an ASI. But quite apart from that the SmartASS is so effective (as no doubt are the better forms of AOA system) because it gives you phased warnings in unignorable form that you are departing from your chosen safe approach speed, alerting you long before you get to the stall. You might wonder what an approach speed has got to do with an EFATO sort of incident, but if she (the nice lady inside the SmartASS) is set for an approach speed of 60kts then she wakes up automatically in any phase of flight if you get down to within a few percent of 60kts, and gets very aggravated long before you get anywhere near 40 kts. Regards, David Joyce On Sat, 10 May 2014 22:28:31 +0100 (BST) GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > Tim > don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) >until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down >and that takes many seconds. > When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not >a lot of use. > Graham > > > > > ________________________________ > From: houlihan > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31 > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: >Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany > > > > Hi Graham. > > I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong >place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 >seconds ? > I bet the real figure is much less than a second. > Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to >move at the speed of light at times. > > Tim > > > > > On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON > wrote: > > Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. >The ASI is always 20 seconds too late. >>Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very >>nice man and a nice Europa. >>Graham >> >> >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: David Joyce >>To: europa-list@matronics.com >>Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36 >>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >> >> >> >> >> >>I strongly suspect that this another case where a >>SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. >>David Joyce, G-XSDJ >> >> >> >>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _bla==== ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:08 PM PST US From: "craig" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Twitter/facebook Hate Facebook and twitter Regards craig From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of f.kyle@sympatico.ca Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 12:22 AM Subject: Europa-List: Twitter/facebook Cheers, Having read about the manipulation of data on both of these, and their inherent limitations, I will not "sign into, subscribe or join" either of them - but will continue to support the Europalist as manfully constructed by Matt Dralle. The only thing to change is underwear. Ferg C-FFGG No virus found in this message. 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