---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/11/14: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:35 AM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_R?= =?UTF-8?Q?e=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany? (houlihan) 2. 12:41 AM - Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany (g-fizy) 3. 01:30 AM - Re: Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Ger?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?many? (Pete Lawless) 4. 03:21 AM - Re: Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce) 5. 03:25 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Europa_Cras?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?h_in_L=FCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 6. 03:43 AM - Re: Re: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce) 7. 04:10 AM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_R?= =?UTF-8?Q?e=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Cra?= =?UTF-8?Q?sh_in_L=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany? (houlihan) 8. 04:21 AM - Facebook/Twitter (Klaus Dietrich) 9. 04:27 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?__Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Europ?= =?utf-8?Q?a_Crash_in__L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (Pete) 10. 06:02 AM - Re: Europa Crash in =?UTF-8?B?TMO8YmVjay9HZXJtYW55IA==?= =?UTF-8?B?LSBMaWZ0IFJlc2VydmUgSW5kaWNhdG9y? (Nigel Graham) 11. 06:35 AM - Smart Ass (DAVID JOYCE) 12. 07:01 AM - Re: Smart Ass (Karl Heindl) 13. 07:08 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany_-?= =?utf-8?Q?_Lift_Reserve_Indicator? (Pete) 14. 07:17 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A__Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Euro?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?pa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in__L=FCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 15. 07:19 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A__Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Euro?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?pa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in__L=FCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 16. 07:42 AM - Re: Smart Ass (David Joyce) 17. 07:56 AM - Re: Smart Ass (DAVID JOYCE) 18. 08:02 AM - Re: Smart Ass (Ivor Phillips) 19. 08:10 AM - Re: Re: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce) 20. 08:27 AM - Re: Smart Ass (Fred Klein) 21. 08:49 AM - Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany (graeme bird) 22. 09:25 AM - Re: Smart Ass (Jerry Rehn) 23. 09:35 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eu?= =?utf-8?Q?ropa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (Alex Kaarsberg) 24. 10:06 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eu?= =?utf-8?Q?ropa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (Alex Kaarsberg) 25. 10:07 AM - Re: Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (David Joyce) 26. 10:59 AM - Re: Europa crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=C3=BCbeck?=/Germany (graeme bird) 27. 03:07 PM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Ger?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?many? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 28. 09:29 PM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Europa?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?-List:_Re:?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Europa-Li?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?st:_Re:_Eu?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ropa_crash?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_in_L=C3=BCbec?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?k/Germany? (Bud Yerly) 29. 11:02 PM - Re: Eu ropa crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=C3=BCbec? (JonSmith) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:55 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_R?= =?UTF-8?Q?e=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany? From: houlihan Hi Graham. We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero. I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head. True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds. best regards Tim On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrot e: > Tim > don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft ha s > accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds. > When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use. > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* houlihan > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31 > *Subject:* Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in > L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > > Hi Graham. > > I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I > appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ? > I bet the real figure is much less than a second. > Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the spee d > of light at times. > > Tim > > > On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON wr ote: > > Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 2 0 > seconds too late. > Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice > Europa. > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Joyce > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36 > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > > davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> > > > I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the > equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > * > > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > *http://www.matronics.com/con============== == > > * > > > * > =========== tronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:58 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany From: "g-fizy" hi david ,do you have the web address in the smartass device regards jim -------- owner g-fizy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423142#423142 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:30:28 AM PST US From: Pete Lawless Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Ger?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?many? Jim http://www.smartavionics.com/ But note from the website "September 2013 - The SmartASS and the Airspeed Monitor have now been discontinued (their replacement is currently being developed and, if all goes to plan, it will be available in Q1 2014)." Pete On 11/05/14 08:40, g-fizy wrote: > > hi david ,do you have the web address in the smartass device > > regards jim > > -------- > owner g-fizy > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423142#423142 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:21:32 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? Jim, Google Smart Avionics. Not sure whether the Mark 3 SmartASS is up on the site yet but if not it will be shortly. The Mark 2 went out of production late last year. The Mk 3 is in being , has been flight tested, will be on sale shortly and slightly cheaper than the mark 2, I am told. On Sun, 11 May 2014 00:40:59 -0700 "g-fizy" wrote: > > > hi david ,do you have the web address in the smartass >device > > regards jim > > -------- > owner g-fizy > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423142#423142 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:59 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Europa-List: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Europa_Cras?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?h_in_L=FCbeck/Germany? Tim=0Amaybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed. =0AWhen AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly b ut will take several seconds.=0AThe force causing change of airspeed is inc rease or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.=0ADuring take off a cceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon =0Aas the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best cli mb.=0AStall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I 'm thinking aloud here)=0AIn fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are al so at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but=0Achange as all up we ight changes.=0AAoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. Tha t's why fast jets use it.=0AA pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASI s are!=0Abest regards=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________________ __=0A From: houlihan =0ATo: europa-list@matronic s.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa -List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L =FCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Graham.=0A=0AWe may be talking apples agains t pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.=0A=0AI agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass b ut the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our norma l mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even q uicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.=0A=0ATrue an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if th rough lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , the se lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds. =0A=0Abest regards=0A=0ATim-=0A=0A=0A=0AOn 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SING LETON wrote:=0A=0ATim=0A>don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or w orse slowed down and that takes many seconds.=0A>When it says "stall speed! " you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.=0A>Graham=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: houlihan =0A>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Saturday, 10 May 20 14, 14:31=0A>Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>Hi Graham.=0A>=0A>=0A>I think yo u may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?=0A>I bet the real figure is much less than a second.=0A>Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.=0A>=0A>=0A>Tim=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: =0A>=0A>Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is al ways 20 seconds too late.=0A>>Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building . A very nice man and a nice Europa.=0A>>Graham=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A >>=0A>>________________________________=0A>> From: David Joyce =0A>>To: europa-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Saturday, 10 M ay 2014, 12:36=0A>>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germa yce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce , G-XSDJ=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com /contribution =0A>=0A>http://www.matronics.com/con======== ======== =0A>=0A>=0A>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Europa-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www. =========================0A ======================= ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:06 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany? Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST) GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > Tim > maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure >instantly changes in airspeed. > When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change >instantly but will take several seconds. > The force causing change of airspeed is increase or >decrease in drag, usually quite a small force. > During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust >and ASI will record speed of course, as soon > as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at >best climb. > Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total >weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here) > In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at >fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but > change as all up weight changes. > AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. >That's why fast jets use it. > A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are! > best regards > Graham > > > > > ________________________________ > From: houlihan > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34 > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: >Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in >Lbeck/Germany > > > > Hi Graham. > > We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what >you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' >thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the >ASI has moved from zero. > > I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a >600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement >relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a >small fraction of a second even using our normal >mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and >could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors >close to the pitot head. > > True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just >want to be warned if through lack of attention or being >distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of >attention or distraction events usually build up slowly >without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens >over one or two seconds. > > best regards > > Tim > > > > On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON > wrote: > > Tim >>don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until >>the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and >>that takes many seconds. >>When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a >>lot of use. >>Graham >> >> >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: houlihan >>To: europa-list@matronics.com >>Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31 >>Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: >>Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >> >> >> >>Hi Graham. >> >> >>I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong >>place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 >>seconds ? >>I bet the real figure is much less than a second. >>Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to >>move at the speed of light at times. >> >> >>Tim >> >> >> >> >> >>On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON >> wrote: >> >>Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The >>ASI is always 20 seconds too late. >>>Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very >>>nice man and a nice Europa. >>>Graham >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> From: David Joyce >>>To: europa-list@matronics.com >>>Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36 >>>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>I strongly suspect that this another case where a >>>SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. >>>David Joyce, G-XSDJ >>> >>> >>> >>>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>>tp://forums.matronics.com >>>_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >>http://www.matronics.com/con================ >> >> >>arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.======================= > ======================= ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:07 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_R?= =?UTF-8?Q?e=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Re=3A_Europa=2DList=3A_Europa_Cra?= =?UTF-8?Q?sh_in_L=C3=BCbeck=2FGermany? From: houlihan Hi Graham. I agree with your comments about the availability of AOA indications, I have not looked in depth at this but my understanding is the systems available are both very expensive and difficult to install. During development of the Jaguar aircraft the test aircraft had vane sensors mounted well forward on the pitot boom these measured pitch and yaw and validated the fuselage mounted incidence gauge. This was a fairly standard device that had a tube with a pair of slots that rotates to equal the pressure and aligns with the airflow On a single engined piston plane anything mounted on the fuselage will be affected by propwash and other factors, if it is mounted on the wing then the results will be affected by the wing itself and vortcies and flow breakdown probably at critical phases of flight. how would you check if the installation is sound and reports correctly without having carried out elaborate flight testing first. I guess and its only a guess is that the pitot based versions are likely to have the same limitations as standard pitots with things like position error and other effects I expect these things are all able to be corrected out one way or another with clever computation. Why is nothing simple ? I stand by to be corrected regards Tim On 11 May 2014 11:22, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrot e: > Tim > maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in > airspeed. > When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take > several seconds. > The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, > usually quite a small force. > During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will > record speed of course, as soon > as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb. > Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm > thinking aloud here) > In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They > are not at fixed airspeeds but > change as all up weight changes. > AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast > jets use it. > A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are! > best regards > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* houlihan > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34 > *Subject:* Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: > Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > > Hi Graham. > > We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true > then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the > undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero. > > I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the > pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will > be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal > mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even > quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head. > > True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned > if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to deca y > , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly > without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two > seconds. > > best regards > > Tim > > > On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON wr ote: > > Tim > don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft ha s > accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds. > When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use. > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* houlihan > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31 > *Subject:* Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in > L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > > Hi Graham. > > I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I > appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ? > I bet the real figure is much less than a second. > Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the spee d > of light at times. > > Tim > > > On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON wr ote: > > Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 2 0 > seconds too late. > Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice > Europa. > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Joyce > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36 > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > > davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> > > > I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the > equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > * > > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > *http://www.matronics.com/con============== == > > * > > > * > > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > <="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics .co======================= > " target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.m at --> > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:08 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Facebook/Twitter From: Klaus Dietrich I will not join FB or Twitter, I will continue with the Europa-List on matronics; this is an excellent tool especially with the daily summery and all the search functions! Klaus (OE-CKD, mono, classic 1200hrs) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:50 AM PST US Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?__Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Europ?= =?utf-8?Q?a_Crash_in__L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? From: Pete ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:47 AM PST US From: Nigel Graham Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?UTF-8?B?TMO8YmVjay9HZXJtYW55IA==?= =?UTF-8?B?LSBMaWZ0IFJlc2VydmUgSW5kaWNhdG9y? Tim, The creation of an AoA indicator does not need to be complex or expensive. Unlike the military devices that you are used to working with, a simple differential pressure gage can be made to measure the change of the stagnation point as it moves up the leading edge of the wing as its AoA approaches 16 degrees. It requires two carefully positioned holes on the wing LE and cannot use the single pitot feed. A few years ago, an enterprising company in the US began selling a device called the "Lift Reserve Indicator". Shortly afterwards, the attached document appeared on the internet. Given a choice, I would endorse David's recommendation and plump for Mark Burton's excellent "SmartAss". Nigel On 11/05/2014 12:09, houlihan wrote: > Hi Graham. > > I agree with your comments about the availability of AOA indications, > I have not looked in depth at this but my understanding is the systems > available are both very expensive and difficult to install. > During development of the Jaguar aircraft the test aircraft had vane > sensors mounted well forward on the pitot boom these measured pitch > and yaw and validated the fuselage mounted incidence gauge. This was a > fairly standard device that had a tube with a pair of slots that > rotates to equal the pressure and aligns with the airflow > On a single engined piston plane anything mounted on the fuselage will > be affected by propwash and other factors, if it is mounted on the > wing then the results will be affected by the wing itself and vortcies > and flow breakdown probably at critical phases of flight. how would > you check if the installation is sound and reports correctly without > having carried out elaborate flight testing first. > I guess and its only a guess is that the pitot based versions are > likely to have the same limitations as standard pitots with things > like position error and other effects I expect these things are all > able to be corrected out one way or another with clever computation. > Why is nothing simple ? > > I stand by to be corrected > > regards > > Tim > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:53 AM PST US From: DAVID JOYCE Subject: Europa-List: Smart Ass -David=0A=0AI agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable!=0A=0ACan you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do particularly on a classic?=0Argds=0ADJ=0ASent to you- by David Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com- =0A-=0APLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW AT=0AThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS=0A160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island=0A-=0ASame Phone 0800 4102122 an d Direct Mobile 07973 675755=0A-=0A =0A=0A_______________________________ _=0A From: David Joyce =0ATo: europa-list@matron ics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europ a-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" =0A=0AGraham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exa ctly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fr action of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had so me commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it beca use we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flie s so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There ha ve of course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relativ ely small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we shoul d all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.=0ARega rds, David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST) =0AGRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A> Tim=0A> may be we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspe ed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds.=0A> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or d ecrease in drag, usually quite a small force.=0A> During take off accelerat ion is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.=0A> Sta ll occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinki ng aloud here)=0A> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at f ixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but=0A> change as all up weight changes.=0A> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets use it.=0A> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!=0A> best regards=0A> Graham=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> _________________ _______________=0A> From: houlihan =0A> To: euro pa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34=0A> Subject: Europa-L ist: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Eu ropa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Hi Graham.=0A> =0A> We ma y be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage befo re the ASI has moved from zero.=0A> =0A> I agree it takes time to accelerat e or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated i n airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors clos e to the pitot head.=0A> =0A> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distract ed I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction event s usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.=0A> =0A> best regards=0A> =0A> Tim-=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A> =0A> Tim=0A>> don't think so , the ASI won't move ( or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.=0A>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already s talled. Not a lot of use.=0A>> Graham=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> ________________________________=0A>> From: houlihan =0A>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31=0A>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Hi Graham.=0A>> =0A>> =0A> > I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I apprecia te what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?=0A>> I bet the real figure is m uch less than a second.=0A>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my AS I seems to move at the speed of light at times.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Tim=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A>> =0A>> Or an AoA meter as primary att itude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.=0A>>> Very s ad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa. =0A>>> Graham=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> _____________ ___________________=0A>>> From: David Joyce =0A> >> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36=0A>>> S ubject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A> .uk>=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com /contribution =0A>> =0A>> http://www.matronics.com/con======= ========= =0A>> =0A>> arget="_blank">http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A> tp://forums.matronics.com=0A> _blank">http ://www.====================== ==/=0A> ===================== ================== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:29 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Smart Ass David=2C I was also looking for the installation manual=2C but without success. Ther e is one website but they want my credit card details for a trial membershi p. Has Mark got it online somewhere ? regards Karl From: stranfaer@btinternet.com Subject: Europa-List: Smart Ass David I agree entirely=2C I have contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to be very rea sonable! Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do partic ularly on a classic?rgdsDJ Sent to you by David Joyce www.eastmidsspas.com PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW ATThe Zycomm B uilding 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755 From:=0A David Joyce To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday=2C 11 May 2014=2C 11:42 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-Li st: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany > Graham=2C Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim=2C and I see where you are coming from now=2C but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compe nsated so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an A OA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushi ng this as if I had some=0A commercial tie up=2C which is not the case. I am evangelical about it beca use we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents=2C an appalling statistic for a plane that fl ies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless crashes of other types also=2C but in our rel atively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we s hould all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7. Regards=2C David Joyce=2C G-XSDJ On Sun=2C 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST) GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > Tim > maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in a irspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds. >=0A The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag=2C us ually quite a small force. > During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will reco rd speed of course=2C as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb. > Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm t hinking aloud here) > In fact best climb=2C cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but > change as all up weight changes. > AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast j ets use it. > A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are! > best regards > Graham > > > > > ________________________________ > From: houlihan > To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday=2C 11 May 2014=2C 8:34 > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany > > > > Hi Graham. > > We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true t hen on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarria ge before the ASI has moved from zero. > > I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pr essure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechani cal manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker us ing electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head. > > True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I=0A just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay =2C these lack of attention or distraction events u sually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely ha ppens over one or two seconds. > > best regards > > Tim > > > > On 10 May 2014 22:28=2C GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > > Tim >> don't think so =2C the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated=2C or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds. >> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use. >> Graham >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: houlihan >> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday=2C 10 May 2014=2C 14:31 >> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany >> >> >> >> Hi Graham. >> >> >> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreci ate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ? >> I bet the real figure is much less than a second. >> Mind you how would you measure the lag =2C my ASI seems to move at the s peed of light at times. >> >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10 May 2014 13:19=2C GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >> >> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late. >>> Very sad=2C I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa. >>> Graham >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: David Joyce >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday=2C 10 May 2014=2C 12:36 >>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany >>> >>>=0A g.uk> >>> >>> >>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equiv alent might have saved them both. David Joyce=2C G-XSDJ >>> >>> >>> >>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://fo rums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> http://www.matronics.com/con============== == >> >> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.================== ======/ > ============avigator?Europa-List" target="_blan k">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same great content also=0A ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/ sp=3B -nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http:// www.matronics.com/contribut============== =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:56 AM PST US Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany_-?= =?utf-8?Q?_Lift_Reserve_Indicator? From: Pete Fwiw, the differential pressure ports can also be on the pitot tube, if it is carefully located out of the wing's interference. My homegrown pitot will be well ahead of the wing. Dynon also has a differential pitot driving their aoa display. Cheers, Pete > On May 11, 2014, at 9:01 AM, Nigel Graham wrote: > > Tim, > > The creation of an AoA indicator does not need to be complex or expensive. Unlike the military devices that you are used to working with, a simple differential pressure gage can be made to measure the change of the stagnation point as it moves up the leading edge of the wing as its AoA approaches 16 degrees. It requires two carefully positioned holes on the wing LE and cannot use the single pitot feed. > > A few years ago, an enterprising company in the US began selling a device called the "Lift Reserve Indicator". Shortly afterwards, the attached document appeared on the internet. > > Given a choice, I would endorse David's recommendation and plump for Mark Burton's excellent "SmartAss". > > Nigel > > >> On 11/05/2014 12:09, houlihan wrote: >> Hi Graham. >> >> I agree with your comments about the availability of AOA indications, I have not looked in depth at this but my understanding is the systems available are both very expensive and difficult to install. >> During development of the Jaguar aircraft the test aircraft had vane sensors mounted well forward on the pitot boom these measured pitch and yaw and validated the fuselage mounted incidence gauge. This was a fairly standard device that had a tube with a pair of slots that rotates to equal the pressure and aligns with the airflow >> On a single engined piston plane anything mounted on the fuselage will be affected by propwash and other factors, if it is mounted on the wing then the results will be affected by the wing itself and vortcies and flow breakdown probably at critical phases of flight. how would you check if the installation is sound and reports correctly without having carried out elaborate flight testing first. >> I guess and its only a guess is that the pitot based versions are likely to have the same limitations as standard pitots with things like position error and other effects I expect these things are all able to be corrected out one way or another with clever computation. Why is nothing simple ? >> >> I stand by to be corrected >> >> regards >> >> Tim > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:48 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Europa-List: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A__Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Euro?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?pa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in__L=FCbeck/Germany? David=0Aalways respect your remarks so no apology needed. =0AI need to scra tch my bald patch to understand the G compensation aspect.=0AOne of the thi ngs that disturbs me somewhat is that several of these accidents were with Classics=0ADon's excellent airfoil section is very critical to inaccuracy a round the leading edge and I noticed that sanding the LE with =0Atemplates generated from computer printouts made a big difference to the way the wing stalled. A single stroke=0Ain the wrong place with a flat abrasive sander can destroy the LE profile.=0Aregartds=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0A From: David Joyce =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42=0ASubject: Re : Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Euro pa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A--> Eu ropa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" =0A =0AGraham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensa ted so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evange lical about it because we have now had (subject to confirmation in this lat est case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic fo r a plane that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose spee d rapidly. There have of course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly so bering and we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becomi ng number 7.=0ARegards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, 11 May 2014 11: 22:00 +0100 (BST)=0AGRAHAM SINGLETON wrote :=0A> Tim=0A> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instan tly but will take several seconds.=0A> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.=0A> During t ake off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed o f course, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at be st climb.=0A> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weigh t is. (I'm thinking aloud here)=0A> In fact best climb, cruise or glide spe eds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but=0A> change as all up weight changes.=0A> AoA is much the best primary flight control i nstrument. That's why fast jets use it.=0A> A pity AoA meters aren't mass p roduced like ASIs are!=0A> best regards=0A> Graham=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> ________________________________=0A> From: houlihan =0A> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34=0A> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re : Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Hi Graha m.=0A> =0A> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the u ndercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.=0A> =0A> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pres sure sensors close to the pitot head.=0A> =0A> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I w ould guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.=0A> =0A> best regards=0A > =0A> Tim-=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A> =0A> Tim=0A>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or wors e slowed down and that takes many seconds.=0A>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.=0A>> Graham=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A >> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> ________________________________=0A>> From: houlihan < houlihan@blueyonder.co.uk>=0A>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturda y, 10 May 2014, 14:31=0A>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europ a-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Hi Graham. =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong p lace. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?=0A>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.=0A>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Tim=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM S INGLETON wrote:=0A>> =0A>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too lat e.=0A>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa.=0A>>> Graham=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>> > ________________________________=0A>>> From: David Joyce =0A>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014 , 12:36=0A>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A yce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> I strongly suspect that this anothe r case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www .matronics.com/contribution =0A>> =0A>> http://www.matronics.com/con== ============== =0A>> =0A>> arget="_blank">htt p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A> tp://forums.matronics.com =0A> _blank">http://www.================= ========0A> ================ ====================== ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:25 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Europa-List: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A__Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Euro?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?pa-List=3A_Europa_Crash_in__L=FCbeck/Germany? I also respect Mark Burton's work although I did fail to persuade him to us e AoA..=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Da vid Joyce =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASe nt: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europ avid Joyce" =0A=0AGraham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have no w had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall /spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so beautiful ly and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course b een countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all be askin g ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.=0ARegards, David Joy ce, G-XSDJ=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST)=0AGRAHAM SINGLE TON wrote:=0A> Tim=0A> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA cha nges aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds .=0A> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.=0A> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb.=0A> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here) =0A> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. The y are not at fixed airspeeds but=0A> change as all up weight changes.=0A> A oA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets use it.=0A> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are!=0A> best regards=0A> Graham=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> _______________________________ _=0A> From: houlihan =0A> To: europa-list@matron ics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34=0A> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europ a-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Hi Graham.=0A> =0A> We may be talking a pples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I woul d be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.=0A> =0A> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerat e a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to th e local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.=0A> =0A> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just wan t to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually buil d up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds.=0A> =0A> best regards=0A> =0A> Tim-=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A > On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON w rote:=0A> =0A> Tim=0A>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes ma ny seconds.=0A>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.=0A>> Graham=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> __________ ______________________=0A>> From: houlihan =0A>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31=0A>> Subj ect: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbec k/Germany=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Hi Graham.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> I think you ma y have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ?=0A>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second.=0A>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Tim=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A>> =0A>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instr ument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.=0A>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa.=0A>>> Graham=0A> >> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> ______________________________ __=0A>>> From: David Joyce =0A>>> To: europa-lis t@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36=0A>>> Subject: Re: Europ a-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> --> Europa-Lis t message posted by: "David Joyce" =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the e quivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A> >> =0A>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List t p://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A> > =0A>> http://www.matronics.com/con============= === =0A>> =0A>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?E uropa-List=0A> tp://forums.matronics.com=0A> _blank">http://www.=== ======================0A> == ============= ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:42 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smart Ass Karl, I could copy relevant sections of my mk 2 installation manual to you if you tell me what you are after. David Joyce, G-XSDJ PS Don't get confused over the multiple David Joyces in this message! On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:00:22 +0100 Karl Heindl wrote: > David, > I was also looking for the installation manual, but >without success. There is one website but they want my >credit card details for a trial membership. Has Mark got >it online somewhere ? > regards Karl > > Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:31:30 +0100 >From: stranfaer@btinternet.com > Subject: Europa-List: Smart Ass > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > David > I agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he >informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few >months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable! > Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and >how easy to do particularly on a classic?rgdsDJ Sent to >you by David Joyce > www.eastmidsspas.com PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE >NOW ATThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley >Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island Same >Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755 > > From: > David Joyce > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: >Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: >Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany > > > > Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, >and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just >add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives >exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an >AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might >appear that I am pushing this as if I had some > commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am >evangelical about it because we have now had (subject to >confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to >stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane >that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to >lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless >crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small >and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and >we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not >becoming number 7. > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST) > GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >> Tim >> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure >>instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft >>speed will not change instantly but will take several >>seconds. >> > The force causing change of airspeed is increase or >decrease in drag, usually quite a small force. >> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust >>and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the >>aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best >>climb. >> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total >>weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here) >> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at >>fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but >> change as all up weight changes. >> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. >>That's why fast jets use it. >> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are! >> best regards >> Graham >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: houlihan >> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, >>8:34 >> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: >>Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in >>Lbeck/Germany >> >> >> >> Hi Graham. >> >> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what >>you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' >>thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the >>ASI has moved from zero. >> >> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a >>600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement >>relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a >>small fraction of a second even using our normal >>mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and >>could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors >>close to the pitot head. >> >> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I > just want to be warned if through lack of attention or >being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack >of attention or distraction events usually build up >slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely >happens over one or two seconds. >> >> best regards >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON >> wrote: >> >> Tim >>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) >>>until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down >>>and that takes many seconds. >>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not >>>a lot of use. >>> Graham >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: houlihan >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May >>>2014, 14:31 >>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: >>>Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Graham. >>> >>> >>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong >>>place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 >>>seconds ? >>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second. >>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to >>>move at the speed of light at times. >>> >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON >>> wrote: >>> >>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. >>>The ASI is always 20 seconds too late. >>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very >>>>nice man and a nice Europa. >>>> Graham >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: David Joyce >>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May >>>>2014, 12:36 >>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a >>>>SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. >>>>David Joyce, G-XSDJ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>>>tp://forums.matronics.com >>>>_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/con================ >>> >>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.========================/ >> ============avigator?Europa-List" >>target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same >>great content also > ttp://forums.matronics.com/" >target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/sp; > -nics.com/contribution" >target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut============== > > > > > > > > > ========== > ========== > ========== > ========== > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:49 AM PST US From: DAVID JOYCE Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smart Ass Multiple?=0A=0AOnly 2=0A=0AThat's enough for one list don't you think?=0A =0A;-)-=0ASent to you-by David Joyce=0Awww.eastmidsspas.com- =0A- =0APLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW AT=0AThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottin gham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS=0A160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island=0A- =0ASame Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755=0A-=0A =0A=0A__ ______________________________=0A From: David Joyce =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 15:40=0A Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smart Ass=0A =0A=0A--> Europa-List message poste d by: "David Joyce" =0A=0AKarl, I could copy rel evant sections of my mk 2 installation manual to you if you tell me what yo u are after. David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0APS Don't get confused over the multiple David Joyces in this message!=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, 11 May 2014 15:00:22 +0100=0A Karl Heindl wrote:=0A> David,=0A> I was also looking for the installation manual, but without success. There is one website but they want my credit card details for a trial membership. Has Mark got it online somewhere ?=0A> regards Karl=0A> =0A> Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:31:30 +010 0=0A> From: stranfaer@btinternet.com=0A> Subject: Europa-List: Smart Ass=0A > To: europa-list@matronics.com=0A> =0A> David=0A> I agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable!=0A> Can you enlig hten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do particularly on a c lassic?rgdsDJ Sent to you by David Joyce=0A> www.eastmidsspas.com- PLEAS E NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW ATThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road R ipley Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island Same Phone 0800 4102 122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755=0A> =0A>- - - - From:=0A> David Joyce =0A> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: S unday, 11 May 2014, 11:42=0A> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re : Europa-List: Re:- Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa avid Joyce" =0A> =0A> Graham, Sorry to be buttin g in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly the s ame 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some=0A> com mercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so b eautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively sm all and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7.=0A> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A> =0A> =0A> On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST) =0A> GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A>> Tim=0A>> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in ai rspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds.=0A>> =0A> The force causing change of airspeed is inc rease or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force.=0A>> During take of f acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of cour se, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best cli mb.=0A>> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here)=0A>> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but=0A>> change as all up weight changes.=0A>> AoA is much the best primary flight control ins trument. That's why fast jets use it.=0A>> A pity AoA meters aren't mass pr oduced like ASIs are!=0A>> best regards=0A>> Graham=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> ________________________________=0A>> From: houlihan =0A>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8 :34=0A>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa -List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Hi Graham.=0A>> =0A>> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero.=0A>> =0A>> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pre ssure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be i ndicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanic al manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker usi ng electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head.=0A>> =0A>> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I=0A> just want to be warned if th rough lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , the se lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds. =0A>> =0A>> best regards=0A>> =0A>> Tim =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> On 10 May 2014 22 :28, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A>> =0A>> Ti m=0A>>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircr aft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds.=0A>> > When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use.=0A> >> Graham=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> _________________ _______________=0A>>> From: houlihan =0A>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31=0A>>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Ge rmany=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> Hi Graham.=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you a re suggesting but 20 seconds ?=0A>>> I bet the real figure is much less tha n a second.=0A>>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times.=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> Tim=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:=0A>>> =0A>>> Or an AoA meter as primary att itude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late.=0A>>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa .=0A>>>> Graham=0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> ____ ____________________________=0A>>>> From: David Joyce =0A>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12 :36=0A>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=FCbeck/Germany=0A>>> vidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>=0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> I strongly suspect that thi s another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them bot h. David Joyce, G-XSDJ=0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> arget="_blank">http ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>>> =0A>>> http://www.matronics. com/con================ =0A>>> arget="_bl ank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A>> tp://forums.matron ics.com=0A>> _blank">http://www.============== ==========/=0A>> ============av igator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator? = Same great content also=0A> ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_bla nk">http://forums.matronics.com/sp;- - - - - - - - - - -nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribu t================0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> - - =0A> =0A> ============0A> ====== ======0A> ============0A> ===== =======0A> =0A> --- --- --- - --- ==================== ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smart Ass From: Ivor Phillips I fitted the mk2 to G-IVER in 2007 before first flight, it's very straight forward to fit and works a treat, the few times I left it switched off for the bi annual flight test just goes to show how it reduces your workload especially doing EFATO and simulated off airfield landings, Without doubt it a highly recommended bit of kit for very little money IMO Ivor Phillips Sent from my iPad > On 11 May 2014, at 15:40, "David Joyce" wrote: > > > Karl, I could copy relevant sections of my mk 2 installation manual to you if you tell me what you are after. David Joyce, G-XSDJ > PS Don't get confused over the multiple David Joyces in this message! > > > On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:00:22 +0100 > Karl Heindl wrote: >> David, >> I was also looking for the installation manual, but without success. There is one website but they want my credit card details for a trial membership. Has Mark got it online somewhere ? >> regards Karl >> Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:31:30 +0100 >> From: stranfaer@btinternet.com >> Subject: Europa-List: Smart Ass >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> David >> I agree entirely, I have contacted Mark burton and he informs me the mark 2 version is in test and is a few months away. Cost appears to be very reasonable! >> Can you enlighten us all if it is retro fittable? and how easy to do particularly on a classic?rgdsDJ Sent to you by David Joyce >> www.eastmidsspas.com PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE MOVED AND ARE NOW ATThe Zycomm Building 51 Nottingham Road Ripley Derbys DE5 3AS160 Meters from Sainsbury's Island Same Phone 0800 4102122 and Direct Mobile 07973 675755 >> From: >> David Joyce >> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 11:42 >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >> Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device (and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I am pushing this as if I had some >> commercial tie up, which is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling statistic for a plane that flies so beautifully and is slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of course been countless crashes of other types also, but in our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves are we confident of not becoming number 7. >> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ >> On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST) >> GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >>> Tim >>> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take several seconds. >> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usually quite a small force. >>> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb. >>> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here) >>> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but >>> change as all up weight changes. >>> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast jets use it. >>> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are! >>> best regards >>> Graham >>> ________________________________ >>> From: houlihan >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34 >>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >>> Hi Graham. >>> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero. >>> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pressure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head. >>> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I >> just want to be warned if through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds. >>> best regards >>> Tim On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >>> Tim >>>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds. >>>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use. >>>> Graham >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: houlihan >>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31 >>>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >>>> Hi Graham. >>>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ? >>>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second. >>>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times. >>>> Tim >>>>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >>>>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late. >>>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice Europa. >>>>> Graham >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: David Joyce >>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36 >>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >>>>> >>>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ >>>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>> http://www.matronics.com/con================ arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>> tp://forums.matronics.com >>> _blank">http://www.========================/ >>> ============avigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?= Same great content also >> ttp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com/sp; -nics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut============== >> ========== >> ========== >> ========== >> ========== > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:54 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in =?iso-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck/Germany? Graham, You should probably be contacting Mark Burton for a definitive answer to that, but my understanding is that the mark 2 SmartASS and the upcoming mk 3 (as opposed to the mk 1) have solid state accelerometers built in and they modify the speed slow & speed very slow messages in realtion to the increased g effect on stall speed so that if you are set for 60 as your approach speed if you pull a 60 degree bank whilst maintaining 60kt she will get agitated and tell you 'speed slow' or probably 'very slow'. You are of course increasing the AOA to achieve that bank angle and the signal would go from probably yellow to red and the associated audible warnings on the new Bendix King AOA system would show comparable change. I accept that inaccurate profiling might change the stall speed and behaviour and favour a wing drop, but nevertheless I feel strongly that the underlying critical factor in the sort of disasters we are talking about is allowing the speed to decay dramatically whilst heavily distracted in a highly stressed situation. A slightly inaccurate Classic wing might stall at say 42kts whilst my beautiful XS wing stalls at 38 but neither of us should be anywhere near these speeds unless moments from touch down! In serious emergencies such as EFATOs even the most experienced & qualified pilots can be distracted enough to totally ignore speed control, so we all need a system that points out in unignorable fashion that our speed is getting dangerously slow, when we are looking out of the window desperately trying to identify a place we might land without killing ourselves. Student pilots are significantly more likely to die from stall/spin accidents with an instructor on board than flying solo. My (& I suspect most) stall warner does not fit that bill. It is in the head rest and advancing deafness and super new head sets mean it is only just audible, and on top of that I am used to ignoring it for much of the take off and landing runs. Regards, David On Sun, 11 May 2014 15:14:08 +0100 (BST) GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: > David > always respect your remarks so no apology needed. I need >to scratch my bald patch to understand the G compensation >aspect. > One of the things that disturbs me somewhat is that >several of these accidents were with Classics > Don's excellent airfoil section is very critical to >inaccuracy around the leading edge and I noticed that >sanding the LE with templates generated from computer >printouts made a big difference to the way the wing >stalled. A single stroke > in the wrong place with a flat abrasive sander can >destroy the LE profile. > regartds > Graham > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Joyce > To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, >11:42 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: >Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: >Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany > > > > > Graham, Sorry to be butting in on your debate with Tim, >and I see where you are coming from now, but can I just >add that the SmartASS is g compensated so it gives exactly >the same 'margin over stall' information as an AOA device >(and at a fraction of the price). It might appear that I >am pushing this as if I had some commercial tie up, which >is not the case. I am evangelical about it because we have >now had (subject to confirmation in this latest case) 6 >Europas lost to stall/spin accidents, an appalling >statistic for a plane that flies so beautifully and is >slippery enough not to lose speed rapidly. There have of >course been countless crashes of other types also, but in >our relatively small and tight knit Europa community it is >truly sobering and we should all be asking ourselves are >we confident of not becoming number 7. > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > On Sun, 11 May 2014 11:22:00 +0100 (BST) > GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote: >> Tim >> maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure >>instantly changes in airspeed. When AoA changes aircraft >>speed will not change instantly but will take several >>seconds. >> The force causing change of airspeed is increase or >>decrease in drag, usually quite a small force. >> During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust >>and ASI will record speed of course, as soon as the >>aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best >>climb. >> Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total >>weight is. (I'm thinking aloud here) >> In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at >>fixed AoAs. They are not at fixed airspeeds but >> change as all up weight changes. >> AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. >>That's why fast jets use it. >> A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are! >> best regards >> Graham >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: houlihan >> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, >>8:34 >> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: >>Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in >>Lbeck/Germany >> >> >> >> Hi Graham. >> >> We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what >>you say is true then on takeoff I would be at 100' >>thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI >>has moved from zero. >> >> I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg >>mass but the pressure measurement showing movement >>relative to the local air mass will be indicated within a >>small fraction of a second even using our normal >>mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and >>could be even quicker using electronic pressure sensors >>close to the pitot head. >> >> True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just >>want to be warned if through lack of attention or being >>distracted I allow my speed to decay , these lack of >>attention or distraction events usually build up slowly >>without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens >>over one or two seconds. >> >> best regards >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON >> wrote: >> >> Tim >>> don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until >>>the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and >>>that takes many seconds. >>> When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a >>>lot of use. >>> Graham >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: houlihan >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May >>>2014, 14:31 >>> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: >>>Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Graham. >>> >>> >>> I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong >>>place. I appreciate what you are suggesting but 20 seconds >>>? >>> I bet the real figure is much less than a second. >>> Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to >>>move at the speed of light at times. >>> >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON >>> wrote: >>> >>> Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The >>>ASI is always 20 seconds too late. >>>> Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very >>>>nice man and a nice Europa. >>>> Graham >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: David Joyce >>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 10 May >>>>2014, 12:36 >>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in Lbeck/Germany >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I strongly suspect that this another case where a >>>>SmartASS or the equivalent might have saved them both. >>>>David Joyce, G-XSDJ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>>>tp://forums.matronics.com >>>>_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/con================ >>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.======================= >> ====================================== ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:47 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smart Ass On May 11, 2014, at 8:00 AM, Ivor Phillips wrote: > Without doubt it a highly recommended bit of kit for very little money When attempting to go to =93www.smartavionics.com=94, I get an =93Untrusted Connection=94 prompt indicating that "If you usually connect to this site without problems, this error could mean that someone is trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn't continue.=94 Has anyone else encountered this situation? Fred ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:02 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCbeck?=/Germany From: "graeme bird" Is it a stall? my first thought was i would probably be putting the wheel away to get some climb about there; what if a flap pin was a bit short or the flap one side moved out board and only one was brought up? Certainly those first few flights are risky even with the best inspections. As for saying one wrong sweep when sanding the leading edge will radically affect the stall characteristics, is that true or help our cause? Perhaps a little alarmist - no sane builder is going to put a flat on it. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423177#423177 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:02 AM PST US From: Jerry Rehn Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smart Ass Fred Site worked for me. Got a response from Mark this morning indicating that th e device is currently in flight test and will be available in one or two mon ths. Jerry Sent from my iPad > On May 11, 2014, at 8:25 AM, Fred Klein wrote: > > >> On May 11, 2014, at 8:00 AM, Ivor Phillips w rote: >> >> Without doubt it a highly recommended bit of kit for very little money > > When attempting to go to =9Cwww.smartavionics.com=9D, I get an =9CUntrusted Connection=9D prompt indicating that > > "If you usually connect to this site without problems, this error could me an that someone is trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn't continu e.=9D > > Has anyone else encountered this situation? > > Fred > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:00 AM PST US Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eu?= =?utf-8?Q?ropa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? From: Alex Kaarsberg Tim et al, Reflecting on your message, you may agree with me on a few points. Pitch angle refers to the angle between the a/c longitudinal axis and level. Angle of incidence, if not mistaken, to longitudinal axis and MAC(?) The vanes in front of the Jaguar, I believe would measure AOA, which is rela tive airflow to long. axis. I do agree that measured AOA could be affected by proximity to the wing, but isn't that the reason it is placed there, in order to read actual AOA on th e wing and not theoretical? Brgds and queuing up for correction :-) Alex Kaarsberg Em 11/05/2014, =C3-s 13:09, houlihan escreveu: > Hi Graham. > > I agree with your comments about the availability of AOA indications, I ha ve not looked in depth at this but my understanding is the systems available are both very expensive and difficult to install. > During development of the Jaguar aircraft the test aircraft had vane senso rs mounted well forward on the pitot boom these measured pitch and yaw and v alidated the fuselage mounted incidence gauge. This was a fairly standard de vice that had a tube with a pair of slots that rotates to equal the pressure and aligns with the airflow > On a single engined piston plane anything mounted on the fuselage will be a ffected by propwash and other factors, if it is mounted on the wing then the results will be affected by the wing itself and vortcies and flow breakdown probably at critical phases of flight. how would you check if the installat ion is sound and reports correctly without having carried out elaborate flig ht testing first. > I guess and its only a guess is that the pitot based versions are likely t o have the same limitations as standard pitots with things like position err or and other effects I expect these things are all able to be corrected out o ne way or another with clever computation. Why is nothing simple ? > > I stand by to be corrected > > regards > > Tim > > > On 11 May 2014 11:22, GRAHAM SINGLETON wr ote: > Tim > maybe we are mixing things a bit. ASI will measure instantly changes in ai rspeed. > When AoA changes aircraft speed will not change instantly but will take se veral seconds. > The force causing change of airspeed is increase or decrease in drag, usua lly quite a small force. > During take off acceleration is caused by engine thrust and ASI will recor d speed of course, as soon > as the aircraft is flying AoA should quickly settle at best climb. > Stall occurs at the same AoA whatever airspeed or total weight is. (I'm th inking aloud here) > In fact best climb, cruise or glide speeds are also at fixed AoAs. They ar e not at fixed airspeeds but > change as all up weight changes. > AoA is much the best primary flight control instrument. That's why fast je ts use it. > A pity AoA meters aren't mass produced like ASIs are! > best regards > Graham > > > From: houlihan > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 8:34 > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: R e: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > > Hi Graham. > > We may be talking apples against pears here BUT if what you say is true th en on takeoff I would be at 100' thinking about retracting the undercarriage before the ASI has moved from zero. > > I agree it takes time to accelerate or decelerate a 600kg mass but the pre ssure measurement showing movement relative to the local air mass will be in dicated within a small fraction of a second even using our normal mechanical manometers that are calibrated in airspeed and could be even quicker using e lectronic pressure sensors close to the pitot head. > > True an AOA or alpha system would be helpful but I just want to be warned i f through lack of attention or being distracted I allow my speed to decay , t hese lack of attention or distraction events usually build up slowly without it being noticed and I would guess rarely happens over one or two seconds. > > best regards > > Tim > > > On 10 May 2014 22:28, GRAHAM SINGLETON wr ote: > Tim > don't think so , the ASI won't move (or shouldn't!) until the aircraft has accelerated, or worse slowed down and that takes many seconds. > When it says "stall speed!" you.ve already stalled. Not a lot of use. > Graham > > > From: houlihan > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 14:31 > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3 =BCbeck/Germany > > Hi Graham. > > I think you may have put the decimal point in the wrong place. I appreciat e what you are suggesting but 20 seconds ? > I bet the real figure is much less than a second. > Mind you how would you measure the lag , my ASI seems to move at the speed of light at times. > > Tim > > > > On 10 May 2014 13:19, GRAHAM SINGLETON wr ote: > Or an AoA meter as primary attitude/speed instrument. The ASI is always 20 seconds too late. > Very sad, I met Manfred while he was building. A very nice man and a nice E uropa. > Graham > > > From: David Joyce > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2014, 12:36 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > k> > > > I strongly suspect that this another case where a SmartASS or the equivale nt might have saved them both. David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > > > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > http://www.matronics.com/con================ > > > > > > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > <="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics. co======================= > " target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.ma t --> > > t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:47 AM PST US Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:?= =?utf-8?Q?_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eu?= =?utf-8?Q?ropa-List:_Europa_Crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? From: Alex Kaarsberg And for something a little more authoritative than what I can extract from m y moldy brain, here is a link to Wikipedia for better clarification: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack Alex Kaarsberg Em 11/05/2014, =C3-s 18:33, Alex Kaarsberg escrev eu: > Tim et al, > > Reflecting on your message, you may agree with me on a few points. > Pitch angle refers to the angle between the a/c longitudinal axis and leve l. > Angle of incidence, if not mistaken, to longitudinal axis and MAC(?) > The vanes in front of the Jaguar, I believe would measure AOA, which is re lative airflow to long. axis. > I do agree that measured AOA could be affected by proximity to the wing, b ut isn't that the reason it is placed there, in order to read actual AOA on t he wing and not theoretical? > > Brgds and queuing up for correction :-) > > Alex Kaarsberg > > Em 11/05/2014, =C3-s 13:09, houlihan ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:35 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa Crash in =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? Graeme, I can tell you that you can fly with one flap up & one down! I am ashamed to say (but too old to be too ashamed - having seen that pretty much everyone makes some sort of cock up if they carry on flying long enough!), that I managed to rig my mono with the flap pin on one side in front of the flap socket. It looked normal on walk around, but proved very entertaining when I put gear up and only one flap came up, the other staying half down. It wasn't too much of a problem although certainly would have been had I been doing say 40kts. And just to say that your near name sake who started this thread is a very sane and very experienced builder responsible for numerous Europa mods, who has enormous experience of the development of the Europa. His remarks are worth taking seriously Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Sun, 11 May 2014 08:48:11 -0700 "graeme bird" wrote: > > > Is it a stall? my first thought was i would probably be >putting the wheel away to get some climb about there; >what if a flap pin was a bit short or the flap one side >moved out board and only one was brought up? > Certainly those first few flights are risky even with >the best inspections. > > As for saying one wrong sweep when sanding the leading >edge will radically affect the stall characteristics, is >that true or help our cause? Perhaps a little alarmist - >no sane builder is going to put a flat on it. > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W > Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423177#423177 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:35 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=C3=BCbeck?=/Germany From: "graeme bird" Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point. Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:59 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Europa-List: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Ger?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?many? Graeme=0AI was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a sligh t bump just=0Aunder the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small,=0Aagain easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine ab rasive round the LE.Accurate =0Atemplates are essential and the plans versi on isn't accurate enough for these subtle=0Acurves. That's what was wrong w ith G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down=0Astall.=0AGraham =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: graeme bird =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014 , 18:57=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0AInteresting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a l ot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its firs t flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point.=0A=0AYep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current buil ders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the sta ll characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test fli ghts.=0A=0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY=0AMono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W=0ANewby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono =0Ag(at)gdbmk.co.uk=0A=0A =0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/view -======================== - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List ====== ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:40 PM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: Europa-List: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Europa?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?-List:_Re:?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Europa-Li?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?st:_Re:_Eu?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ropa_crash?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_in_L=C3=BCbec?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?k/Germany? Graham and others. Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cu p sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil. On the accident comments: I hate to speculate=2C but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired=2C leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should h ave had equipment=2C etc. The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure i t is made in baby steps. After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 1 6th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft=2C many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident. My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here i s what we discussed on a takeoff leg=2C attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft. Off the top of my fuzzy balding head: On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In tes ting of 12AY (a Classic) with 914=2C the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test=2C at 55 knots=2C I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning. Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 d egrees glide slope or so=2C one can see that it requires a 13 degree push o ver to try to preserve airspeed and control. Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an a ggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed. Clean=2C it wasn't much better=2C in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off u nless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed. To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing: A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to he lp determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I do ubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight t est yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distrac tions early on. I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident. My flight test comments are as follows: We know that in the preflight phase=2C Annex E for wing angles/tail plane a ngles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to ver ify gear lock=2C flap position/operation=2C and outrigger lock operates ful l proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully prim ed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holdin g 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balan ce and a review of max forward=2C aft and test flight loads and CGs verifie d on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallon s US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps. The electrical system must be able to handle the load=2C and if there is a cockpit smoke situation=2C battery off=2C the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.) All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no re d light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications) . Trim must be checked and verified operational. All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must=2C Transponder is often required=2C ELT operational=2C (I turn AOA and Autopilots off). The night before=2C I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over airc raft systems=2C test parameters=2C panel layout and specifics of complex el ectrical systems. Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate ac celeration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes ha nds off=2C feet only=2C half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) C limb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. R eturn to the pattern=2C 80 on downwind=2C no slower than 75 in the turns=2C and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you foun d abnormal. Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance . Check CS prop operation=2C and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verifica tion=2C stalls=2C falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engine s are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we h ave good stall characteristics=2C go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to st all. Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for ab out 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready=2C I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop. However=2C I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do thi s. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared t o knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead=2C and ther e was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.) Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls=2C slow flight =2C advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfor table=2C the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the tech nical observer who is verifying airspeeds=2C pitch angles=2C stall buffet =2C system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is wher e the AOA=2C Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out. Frankly=2C my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept win g aircraft are different). That said=2C after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather=2C sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me t hat I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all . If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability=2C watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean=2C you could be fal ling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is wh ere an AOA=2C Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator=2C and proper stall strip can be handy. Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft a ccidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate=2C pass on the har d learned lessons to those who may benefit. Regards to all=2CBud From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germ any Graeme I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump ju st under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small=2C again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accu rate templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for the se subtle curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down stall. Graham From: graeme bird To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday=2C 11 May 2014=2C 18:57 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down=3B but for me a lot i s going on just after take off=2C watching the gauges=2C the speed the VSI =2C changing prop pitch=2C unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the le aver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight=2C I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudde n roll at that point. Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions=3B I am just thinking of the message=2C unintentionally=2C its sending to=0A current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateur s and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188 p=3B -Matt Dralle=2C Libution"=0A ====== =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:11 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Europa-List: Re: Eu ropa crash in =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=C3=BCbec? From: "JonSmith" Hey Bud, great posting - one of your best (and they're all good!) Especially the bit about "aggressive nose down push required to preserve airspeed". I feel many pilots just DO NOT REALISE THIS!! The subject has been continually covered since god and man first invented aeroplanes but over 100 years later the same mistakes get made. Some pilots seem to labour under the misapprehension that "a 180 degree turn back can be made following an engine out at (say) 500 feet". Following an engine failure at this sort of height, by the time the pilot has recognised and responded, the speed will have washed off further. With the nose now (hopefully) well down speed must be regained to a safe manoeuvring speed. By this time the plane will just about be at ground level again. The amount and rate of nose down pitch change and the deck attitude that will be required to attain and maintain MUST NOT BE UNDERESTIMATED. Sure it can be demonstrated that FROM AN ALREADY ESTABLISHED AND STABILISED GLIDE a 180 deg turn can be made with a very small height loss. Some instructors may demonstrate this but I feel this is a very highly dangerous demonstration for a student's future if it is in any way linked to engine failure after take off scenarios. My comments above relate to ANY aircraft of course and not just the Europa. Nor in any way am I speculating that my above scenario of attempted turn back is connected to the very sad German crash. -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423204#423204 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.