---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/12/14: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:32 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?opa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (Michael Orth) 2. 02:12 AM - Fuel pump replacement (UK) (Richard Iddon) 3. 02:31 AM - Re: Fuel pump replacement (UK) (Pete Lawless) 4. 03:32 AM - Re: Fuel pump replacement (UK) (Brian Davies) 5. 05:29 AM - Painted at last (alan.twigg775@gmail.com) 6. 06:44 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_RE=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 7. 07:00 AM - Zero lift () 8. 07:09 AM - =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJFOiBFdXJvcGEtTGlzdDogUg==?= =?UTF-8?B?ZTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiBFdXJvcGEgY3Jhc2ggaW4gTMODwrxiZWNrL0dlcm1hbnk=? (William Daniell) 9. 07:13 AM - Re: Zero lift (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 10. 12:51 PM - Airspeed static ports. (Tony Renshaw) 11. 01:35 PM - Re: Airspeed static ports. (Frans Veldman) 12. 03:10 PM - Re: Airspeed static ports. (Tony Renshaw) 13. 03:36 PM - Re: Airspeed static ports. (rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us) 14. 03:41 PM - Multiple instrument sensors degrading voltage and giving false readings (Tony Renshaw) 15. 11:48 PM - Re: Painted at last (spcialeffects) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:31 AM PST US From: "Michael Orth" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_RE:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eur?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?opa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? Good post. Thanks, Michael ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: Bud Yerly Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 9:28 PM Subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany Graham and others. Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil. On the accident comments: I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc. The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps. After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident. My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft. Off the top of my fuzzy balding head: On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning. Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control. Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed. Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed. To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing: A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on. I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident. My flight test comments are as follows: We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps. The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.) All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational. All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off). The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems. Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal. Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall. Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop. However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.) Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out. Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all. If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy. Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit. Regards to all, Bud ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany Graeme I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small, again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down stall. Graham ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: graeme bird Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point. Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188 p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" ====== target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:18 AM PST US From: Richard Iddon Subject: Europa-List: Fuel pump replacement (UK) I have just got a new mechanical fuel pump as a routine replacement. ( Although my Pierburg is still fine). Do I need an inspection after fitting and a sign off or can I just bung it on and go flying again? Richard Iddon. G-RIXS ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:41 AM PST US From: Pete Lawless Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel pump replacement (UK) Richard Don't know about the sign off but you should certainly re do the fuel flow checks. Pete On 12/05/14 10:11, Richard Iddon wrote: > > I have just got a new mechanical fuel pump as a routine replacement. ( Although my Pierburg is still fine). Do I need an inspection after fitting and a sign off or can I just bung it on and go flying again? > > Richard Iddon. > > G-RIXS > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:33 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel pump replacement (UK) A number of owners have experienced problems caused by high fuel pressure overcoming the carb float valves after fitting the new pump. I don't know if you have a fuel pressure gauge fitted but it would be worth checking that fuel pressure, as well as flow, were still within limits. It does require an inspector sign off. Regards Brian Davies -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon Sent: 12 May 2014 10:11 Subject: Europa-List: Fuel pump replacement (UK) I have just got a new mechanical fuel pump as a routine replacement. ( Although my Pierburg is still fine). Do I need an inspection after fitting and a sign off or can I just bung it on and go flying again? Richard Iddon. G-RIXS ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:16 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Painted at last From: alan.twigg775@gmail.com 12 years on and a big step in my Motorglider's progress, wings in paint prep aration. Sent from my iPhone
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:30 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Europa-List: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_RE=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa-Lis?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t=3A_Re=3A_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? Bud=0Aexcellent letter. I am most interested in your VG installation. Did y ou fit to botn wing and tail?=0AI fitted them to my Long EZ and was delight ed with the improvement in low speed handling.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____ ___________________________=0A From: Bud Yerly =0ATo: eur opa-list =0ASent: Monday, 12 May 2014, 5:28=0AS ubject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AGraham and others.=0A-=0AGood comment on the leading edge curve.- My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded a nd filled off by my painter.- It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.=0A-=0AOn the accident comments:=0AI hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expan ding time I have acquired, leads-me to use caution speculating at this ti me and to causes and early on assumptions on-should have had equipment, e tc.=0A-=0AThe initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft)-needs to make sure it is made in baby steps.=0AAfter building 18 aircraft 15 of w hich are Europas-(yes-I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and te st flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg s tall spin type accident.- =0A-=0AMy last call from a US accident inspec tor was a very long time ago.- Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg , attempted turn-back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experience d pilot and seasoned aircraft.=0A-=0AOff the top of my fuzzy balding head :=0AOn takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle.- In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck a ngle of 10 degrees (and-about a 12.5 degree-angle of attack) at 55 Knot s.- When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I foun d only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.=0A- =0ASince the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.=0A-=0ALesson for everybody: - Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.=0A-=0AClean, it wasn't much better, in fact w ith the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the resul ts were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below th e horizon- (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.=0A-=0A To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:=0AA new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA.- These systems require calibration and testing.- I doubt thes e folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. - Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on.=0A-=0AI have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will ge t much other than stall spin accident.=0A-=0AMy flight test comments are as follows:=0AWe know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/ tail plane angles and control throws-is not enough.- Retract-tests ar e essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger loc k-operates full proof. -The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up.- The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in-5 seconds or less. - Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flig ht loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form.- (I normally will fly w ith a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.)- The engine must run fla wlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes runni ng at summer time temps.=0A-=0AThe electrical system must be able to hand le the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the en gine must run with ignition only.- (914s don't forget the Aux pump operat ion.)=0A-=0AAll engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pito t and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitud e indications).- Trim must be checked and verified operational.=0A-=0AA ll aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a m ust, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopi lots off). =0A-=0AThe night before, I chair fly and prepare for the fligh t.- I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifi cs of complex electrical systems.=0A-=0AFlight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors.- (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 9 0.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only,-half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.)-Climb to 2500 feet or so and che ck the-trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots.--Return to the pattern,-8 0 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on fin al.- One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK.- Land and pull the c owl and inspect.-- Fix any and everything you found abnormal.=0A-=0AF light two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. - Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verificat ion, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability.- Typically our engines a re flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight.- If all goes well and we ha ve good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight.-- (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to s tall.=0A-=0AOnce I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my a ircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I p rebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.=0A-=0AHowever, I h ave been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. - Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this.- A th orough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. - The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save.- Two people fl ying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight.- ( M y rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there w as nothing that you could-have done to make the aircraft safer.)=0A-=0A Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, ad vance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized.- ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system ope ration and calibration while the client flies.)--This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc.-gets calibrated or rung out.- =0A-=0A=0AFrankly,-my opinion is that-an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of m oney for me and I prefer a-well-installed-stall strip (swept wing air craft are different).--That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F deg ree weather, sometimes it is nice to have-"Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention.- Fatigue and complacency do set in-to us al l.-=0A-=0AIf one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch y our speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed.- H ere is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator,-and proper stall strip can be handy.=0A-=0ARight now all I can do is pray fo r the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from prev ious-aircraft accidents and my own experiences.-- Then when appropria te, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit.=0A-=0ARega rds to all,=0ABud=0A-=0A-=0A--=0A--=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A=0A- =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0ADate: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 uropa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany=0ATo: europa-list@matro nics.com=0A=0A=0AGraeme=0AI was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The se ction has a slight bump just=0Aunder the LE which is very easily sanded off . The nose radius is also quite small,=0Aagain easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate =0Atemplates are essential an d the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle=0Acurves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down =0Astall.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: graeme bird =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: S unday, 11 May 2014, 18:57=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3 graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>=0A=0AInteresting to hear that you can fly with a flap d own; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were t o be a sudden roll at that point.=0A=0AYep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its send ing to=0A current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfec t amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explor ed during the test flights.=0A=0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY=0AMono Cla ssic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W=0ANewby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono =0Ag (at)gdbmk.co.uk=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://foru ms.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188=0Ap; - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, Libution"=0A========0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=========== target="_blank">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A============0Ahttp:// forums.matronics.com=0A============0A="_blank">http ============= ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:36 AM PST US From: Subject: Europa-List: Zero lift Cheers, I enjoy the discussion of stall and warning ( the two are quite different) but suggest a trip in Wikipedia to either stall warning, angle of attack OR zero lift. My device is relatively simple, measures the flow over the wing AT the wing, and calculates the angle above zero lift angle to determine the point at which a warning is due. It is imperfect unless the yaw is zero, and the gust factor is low, among several other things. Because it is based upon the naval flyer's use of AoA almost exclusively for carrier approaches, I believe it is worth investigating. The l1011's use of 'alpha' angle for approach made it an entirely different machine - in many ways. Ferg C-FFGG ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:30 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJFOiBFdXJvcGEtTGlzdDogUg==?= =?UTF-8?B?ZTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiBFdXJvcGEgY3Jhc2ggaW4gTMODwrxiZWNrL0dlcm1hbnk=? From: William Daniell =8Byes i picked up on that, and I definitely like to know more about VG. Will=8B William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 8:42 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON < grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> wrote: > Bud > excellent letter. I am most interested in your VG installation. Did you > fit to botn wing and tail? > I fitted them to my Long EZ and was delighted with the improvement in low > speed handling. > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Bud Yerly > *To:* europa-list > *Sent:* Monday, 12 May 2014, 5:28 > *Subject:* Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa > crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany > > Graham and others. > > Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight > cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall > like a normal series 6 airfoil. > > On the accident comments: > I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive > flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution > speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should > have had equipment, etc. > > The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure > it is made in baby steps. > After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our > 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many > things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident. > > My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here > is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle > impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft. > > Off the top of my fuzzy balding head: > On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In > testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck > angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots .. > When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found on ly > 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning. > > Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 > degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push > over to try to preserve airspeed and control. > > Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an > aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed. > > Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck > angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off > unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) > was necessary to preserve airspeed. > > To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing: > A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to > help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I > doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flig ht > test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit > distractions early on. > > I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other tha n > stall spin accident. > > My flight test comments are as follows: > We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane > angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to > verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates fu ll > proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max > angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully > primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side > holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. a nd > Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs > verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 > gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full > and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time > temps. > > The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a > cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition > only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.) > > All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static ) > must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no > red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude > indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational. > > All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a > must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and > Autopilots off). > > The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over > aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex > electrical systems. > > Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate > acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our plane s > hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 > feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 > Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the > turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a > mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything > you found abnormal. > > Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and > performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A /S > verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our > engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well > and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I > have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prio r > to stall. > > Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for > about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief wi th > him and hand him the keys for a test hop. > > However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight > phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do > this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeof f > is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two > people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes > weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you a re > prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead , > and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer .) > > Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, > advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is > comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am th e > technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet , > system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where > the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out. > > Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a > waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wi ng > aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F > degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me > that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us > all. > > If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as > the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling > with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where > an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall > strip can be handy. > > Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from > the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own > experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to > those who may benefit. > > Regards to all, > Bud > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100 > From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCb eck/Germany > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Graeme > I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump > just > under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also > quite small, > again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the > LE.Accurate > templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for > these subtle > curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing i n > a flaps down > stall. > Graham > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* graeme bird > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57 > *Subject:* Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany > > > Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot i s > going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, > changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver > with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its > first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden > roll at that point. > > Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of > the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact i s > hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristi cs > are one of the first things explored during the test flights. > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W > Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188 > p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" ====== > > > * > > ========== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > * > > *ank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ">http://www.mat "nofo llow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/ ">http://f ========= > > * > > > * > =========== tronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:22 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Zero lift Fergus=0Ayou flying yet? Don't leave it too late like I did!=0AGraham=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "f.kyle@sympatico.ca" =0ATo: '5EUROPALIST ' =0ASen t: Monday, 12 May 2014, 15:02=0ASubject: Europa-List: Zero lift=0A =0A=0A =0ACheers,=0AI enjoy the discussion of stall and warning ( the two are quit e different) but suggest a trip in Wikipedia to either stall warning, angle of attack OR zero lift.=0AMy device is relatively simple, measures the flo w over the wing AT the wing, and calculates the angle above zero lift angle to determine the point at which a warning is due. It is imperfect unless t he yaw is zero, and the gust factor is low, among several other things.=0AB ecause it is based upon the naval flyer=99s use of AoA almost exclusi vely for carrier approaches, I believe it is worth investigating. The l1011 =99s use of =98alpha=99 angle for approach made it an ent ======= ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:19 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Airspeed static ports. From: Tony Renshaw Gidday, I am considering how I will quick connect my pitot dynamic and static tubes f rom my wing root to the fuselage and am considering quick connects/disconnec ts. In the process of this investigation, I have wondered whether I could ta ke a rear fuselage "internal" static pressure as well as the pitot, in case h ypothetically it ever got blocked, but without any switching, just melding t he two. I would think the worst case would be where cabin static could creat e a false reading on a rapid climb out, where the static could lag due to a g reater pressure from an internal contribution, which would indicate you are f lying slower than you actually are, which is safe. Seems to me since most li ght a/c leak like sieves, and our rear fuselage more so because of flap driv e slots into wing root close out voids, that I could use this to my advantag e. Comments?? Regards Tony Renshaw P.S. I was inspired by these fittings: Sent from my iPad
________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:18 PM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airspeed static ports. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 05/12/2014 09:46 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > Gidday, I am considering how I will quick connect my pitot dynamic > and static tubes from my wing root to the fuselage and am > considering quick connects/disconnects. I use the ones in your picture, but not for quick disconnects. I think they are not really suitable for repeatable connections and they are sometimes difficult to let go. > In the process of this investigation, I have wondered whether I > could take a rear fuselage "internal" static pressure as well as > the pitot, I have a static tube connector in the instrument panel with a blocked piece of tubing in it. If I pull it out, I have static pressure from the cockpit (in parallel to the static port in the wing). This works very well. In fact, it works so well that I hardly see any difference if I take the blockage out. (And yes, my static port system is leak free). Unless I open one of the big vents in the door windows, then the static pressure goes way off. But of course cockpit pressure is very dependant on how tight your doors are, how much air leaks around the throttle, etc. In my case it just happens that the cockpit pressure is very neutral. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJTcS2NAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzV88MP/2ySp42eJpF1nAL8TfY0GP+f o60aY4cJX2uJP+V9AmX25+/BZg7m4vd9l4qzw+MGLyAQX9ib6y0GgUedBhsAVR/R IOC4QqeEzkhXP3HtNwX58itcLBfm6Lh2hFNTO3YWEupW/owKl6eYpHuC2Ahf+Vk5 Iq1IXMmTvHdz9uGARPgg67soG24VIysMqZSsacTJfNKXp9ftMVRI4rnCBaXlJ2TU 1IzlwQFMSZZTMqhxOHPJJbKXhV54relndjWx2bcX13gewqkfv749yHubFHlIuekf CsjEZ2HTsff3LMbjrBK1ZzIJRYREc9OWluqBgb7YYT+dogeVgU4Rf4pKZq5jMDK/ GehFH18OjTIYuh8cD5PHYlBzNcAFMz21ThQJ273XPZVyt2rJuy0Hd49g9G9rdomg /3yMrdzcdzg6ZCesDemyG30qNEwIwSFM6URxbq8//JIFlqADMyxkFWV6n8WeGkZ7 8jKeJNnZxEmN3vKn+d7un2Id3k/mamKgJEIJriJrF/yoPZF6XWnulFLfer1hDW4S NcWdI1Z80pfM4irhx8HLvSofzBqqwGGF+52rFwXPxBhbRizQqJPSUXnbzNdSL1mW epLx23XCxqdtlonoxtwI4FqnL3i/GU+v7APbTw3Gkz1lK55wbitQevaR+DvyCzq6 Hg041vB0pa5csSIVxwb8 =Y/0Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:52 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airspeed static ports. Hi Fran's, I expect the pressure in the aft fuselage might be more representative than cockpit pressure, which is why my plan was to pick it up back behind the baggage bay, near the flap cross tube. I have wondered about plumbing a standby pitot static to the cockpit, but have wondered if I can make it a split system static. We have a similar system with multiple statics for the one system on bigger aircraft, albeit they measure ambient, for obvious reasons. These fittings do work well though in my superficial testing, and leak of static from the fitting is a bit of an irrelevance, since we are talking about more a static equalization pressure tube more than anything. Believe it or not I have this Nylaflow? Tubing, the hard walled opaque stuff from ACS, and it makes an excellent push to fit. I am tempted to use the 3/8" OD inside a 3/8" ID joiner, and just push them together. Very un-aviation, but if you've ever done it, you'll appreciate how hard they are to pull apart, and no vibration is going to do it. Regards Tony Renshaw Sent from my iPad > On 12 May 2014, at 1:22 pm, Frans Veldman wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > >> On 05/12/2014 09:46 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote: >> Gidday, I am considering how I will quick connect my pitot dynamic >> and static tubes from my wing root to the fuselage and am >> considering quick connects/disconnects. > > I use the ones in your picture, but not for quick disconnects. I think > they are not really suitable for repeatable connections and they are > sometimes difficult to let go. > >> In the process of this investigation, I have wondered whether I >> could take a rear fuselage "internal" static pressure as well as >> the pitot, > > I have a static tube connector in the instrument panel with a blocked > piece of tubing in it. If I pull it out, I have static pressure from > the cockpit (in parallel to the static port in the wing). This works > very well. In fact, it works so well that I hardly see any difference > if I take the blockage out. (And yes, my static port system is leak > free). Unless I open one of the big vents in the door windows, then > the static pressure goes way off. But of course cockpit pressure is > very dependant on how tight your doors are, how much air leaks around > the throttle, etc. In my case it just happens that the cockpit > pressure is very neutral. > > Frans > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) > > iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJTcS2NAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzV88MP/2ySp42eJpF1nAL8TfY0GP+f > o60aY4cJX2uJP+V9AmX25+/BZg7m4vd9l4qzw+MGLyAQX9ib6y0GgUedBhsAVR/R > IOC4QqeEzkhXP3HtNwX58itcLBfm6Lh2hFNTO3YWEupW/owKl6eYpHuC2Ahf+Vk5 > Iq1IXMmTvHdz9uGARPgg67soG24VIysMqZSsacTJfNKXp9ftMVRI4rnCBaXlJ2TU > 1IzlwQFMSZZTMqhxOHPJJbKXhV54relndjWx2bcX13gewqkfv749yHubFHlIuekf > CsjEZ2HTsff3LMbjrBK1ZzIJRYREc9OWluqBgb7YYT+dogeVgU4Rf4pKZq5jMDK/ > GehFH18OjTIYuh8cD5PHYlBzNcAFMz21ThQJ273XPZVyt2rJuy0Hd49g9G9rdomg > /3yMrdzcdzg6ZCesDemyG30qNEwIwSFM6URxbq8//JIFlqADMyxkFWV6n8WeGkZ7 > 8jKeJNnZxEmN3vKn+d7un2Id3k/mamKgJEIJriJrF/yoPZF6XWnulFLfer1hDW4S > NcWdI1Z80pfM4irhx8HLvSofzBqqwGGF+52rFwXPxBhbRizQqJPSUXnbzNdSL1mW > epLx23XCxqdtlonoxtwI4FqnL3i/GU+v7APbTw3Gkz1lK55wbitQevaR+DvyCzq6 > Hg041vB0pa5csSIVxwb8 > =Y/0Z > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airspeed static ports. From: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Hi Tony Have a look at Winter connectors that I am using at instrument module, also see the pneumatic switches I am using for switch between static and cockpit and switch between static and TE for variometer: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=27305&g2_page=2 Also have a look at my mutilated Winter connector, Sermos (very close to Anderson power pole modular connectors) connector and plastic buckle that melded into a one connector solution for wing to fuse: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=86942 Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:32 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Multiple instrument sensors degrading voltage and giving false readings From: Tony Renshaw Gidday, I'm wondering if someone could explain how I can run a UMA RPM gauge, and have the same data sensed by an EIS, whether splitting the output will effect instrumentation, and how it is fixable? I have steam MP,RPM, and Air Box Pressure Gauges I want to have as redundant backup for the EIS, or possibly I might prefer reading them. They are quite cute, at 1 1/4", in a small stack or row. Regards Tony Renshaw Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:06 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Painted at last From: "spcialeffects" Beautiful Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423245#423245 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.