Europa-List Digest Archive

Tue 05/13/14


Total Messages Posted: 6



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: facebook or twitter (Max Cointe (Free))
     2. 10:57 AM - Re: Airspeed static ports. (Frans Veldman)
     3. 10:59 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eur?= 	=?iso-8859-1?Q?opa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (Max Cointe (Free))
     4. 01:35 PM - =?utf-8?B?UmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSRTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiBFdXJvcGEt?= =?utf-8?B?TGlzdDogUmU6IEV1cm9wYSBjcmFzaCBpbiBMw4PCvGJlY2svR2VybWFueQ==? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
     5. 01:49 PM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eur?= 	=?iso-8859-1?Q?opa-List:_Re:_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (Bud Yerly)
     6. 07:51 PM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Euro?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?pa-List:_Re:_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? (Bud Yerly)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 10:27:54 AM PST US
    From: "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe@free.fr>
    Subject: Re: facebook or twitter
    + 1 Will NEVER have an account on both Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours F-PLDJ DynAro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Remi Guerner Envoy: vendredi 9 mai 2014 09:28 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet: Europa-List: Re: facebook or twitter --> <air.guerner@orange.fr> Add me to the list of those who will not use facebook or twitter Remi Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423042#423042


    Message 2


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    Time: 10:57:25 AM PST US
    From: Frans Veldman <frans@privatepilots.nl>
    Subject: Re: Airspeed static ports.
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 05/13/2014 12:07 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote: > <tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com> > > Hi Fran's, I expect the pressure in the aft fuselage might be more > representative than cockpit pressure, Not in my airplane. In my airplane the aft fuselage seems to be of higher pressure than the cockpit. I installed a vent in the D-panel with the intention to let the air out, but it is blowing into the cockpit instead! I have no idea where the air is leaving again as every opening in the cockpit seems to be blowing inward (and yes my doors are sealed with a center pin arrangement). Also I don't understand why the aft fuselage is pressurised. The main openings in the aft fuselage are the tailplane drive slots but it looks to me they are in a low pressure area. The slots for the flap drive are covered by the wing root fairings so they are normally sealed in flight. The only other openings are the small openings for the rudder cable and one small opening in the sternpost for the rudder drive rod. > Believe it or not I have this Nylaflow? Tubing, the hard walled > opaque stuff from ACS, and it makes an excellent push to fit. I am > tempted to use the 3/8" OD inside a 3/8" ID joiner, and just push > them together. Very un-aviation, but if you've ever done it, you'll > appreciate how hard they are to pull apart, and no vibration is > going to do it. I have used this equipment to plumb my entire pitot/static system. Only for the wing to fuselage connection I use the "official" quick (dis)connect fittings. I agree that it is great stuff. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJTclsVAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzV4QMQAM8lZZfm0CN/lTVxa88gMBJP 3xbNZBOlUmC+04u+Kl8C8c9UfqpAH17aCRsKRz4GK6wDdsbvwwjGJI9nHVkGx8Vm 9u9ZzA0MnK3V5Heuw+w361689m8k/Y8fZS/iDVFE9bWjDtFEzI8ME/YpYYaXgEiq G3C62gq1GOHFJAE1+gK1Gnjjus+6gqBShRomHqu+EgbysXsuOJ6r4NV5cu29fAbc 1g+WFNWkuh1Y/70d6X/qIepYecHzAWZNDK5KSlh58xXMote19pVlAHuvlmul+7PR qy/ilQqRyFbK98vQI0harYajRjFRd4MQu7EKYmYwaJgQFSkAvjMQpjPhJVagVokA 08g+kNuHnPaTZ7V+QF0KTH/v1BtSNKCdRSr2I+y4jbvk+zrLdIgs4E/8M7MVXL2p xu1jTbn3j+f5L0s/Th0oUbfcddEXy/aokFyJI8W2fVZiE8L1bdQlvO8CHjIFFkEs cnoYSyDrlQo4SiTyvbKYUM+qGWeOs4Ob0ELus9BnU5L71+Z7BX2wdqwiNCMjJLa8 QWqnnU3C1kNU/siIoMdCjzlN/f3O+JlWuJZR9/SXP9zQ/EADRPOjTJjfGMhNeQXG PPOJ8654zw/xx95KfAbjSu6bTOyl9GmI1DsNdV4Q9t5qyVdvdfRpUGPA7ekk7/8f ICHdYmmg2VudTdUacrM7 =LAm1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:59:43 AM PST US
    From: "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe@free.fr>
    Subject: Re: o-8859-1?Q?RE:_Europa-List:_RE:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eur?=
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?opa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? Hi Bud, A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa=92s in particular. The only point in your list which I can=92t execute belongs to temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot weather comes=85 Max Cointe <mailto:mcointe@free.fr> mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly Envoy=E9 : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29 =C0 : europa-list Objet : Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany Graham and others. Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil. On the accident comments: I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc. The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps. After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident. My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft. Off the top of my fuzzy balding head: On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning. Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control. Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed. Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed. To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing: A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on. I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident. My flight test comments are as follows: We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps. The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.) All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational. All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off). The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems. Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal. Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall. Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop. However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.) Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out. Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all. If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy. Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit. Regards to all, Bud _____ From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany Graeme I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small, again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down stall. Graham _____ From: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point. Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188 p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" ====== target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 4


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    Time: 01:35:48 PM PST US
    From: GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSRTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiBFdXJvcGEt?=
    =?utf-8?B?TGlzdDogUmU6IEV1cm9wYSBjcmFzaCBpbiBMw4PCvGJlY2svR2VybWFueQ==? Max=0Ais it feasible for you to enclose the exhaust pipe by adding a final tunnel for cooling air exit? There=0Ais a lot of energy in the exhaust and it will pull the cooling air through on the ground. Works with Lycomings. =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Max Coint e (Free) <mcointe@free.fr>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday , 13 May 2014, 18:58=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europ a-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A=0AHi Bud, =0A=C2-=0AA lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in ge neral and building and flying Europa=99s in particular.=0AThe only po int in your list which I can=99t execute belongs to temp in summer: a lways cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot wea ther comes=0A=C2-=0AMax=C2- Cointe=0Amcointe@free.fr=0AF-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear=0AKit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours=0A=C2- =0AF-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S =0AKit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7 A 1600 heures=0A=C2-=0ADe=C2-:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [m ailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly=0AEnv oy=C3=A9=C2-: lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29=0A=C3=C2-: europa-list=0AObjet =C2-: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany=0A=C2-=0AGraham and others.=0A=C2-=0AGood com ment on the leading edge curve.=C2- My Classic wing has that slight cup s anded and filled off by my painter.=C2- It has a bit of a sharp stall lik e a normal series 6 airfoil.=0A=C2-=0AOn the accident comments:=0AI hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight e nvelope expanding time I have acquired, leads=C2-me to use caution specul ating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on=C2-should ha ve had equipment, etc.=0A=C2-=0AThe initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft)=C2-needs to make sure it is made in baby steps.=0AAfter bui lding 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas=C2-(yes=C2-I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many t hings can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AM y last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago.=C2- He re is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn=C2-back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft. =0A=C2-=0AOff the top of my fuzzy balding head:=0AOn takeoff the Europa h as a very good rate of climb and deck angle.=C2- In testing of 12AY (a Cl assic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and =C2-about a 12.5 degree=C2-angle of attack) at 55 Knots.=C2- When pul ling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 secon ds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.=0A=C2-=0ASince the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees gli de slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try t o preserve airspeed and control.=0A=C2-=0ALesson for everybody:=C2- Rec overy from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push t o preserve airspeed.=0A=C2-=0AClean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results w ere a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the ho rizon=C2- (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.=0A=C2- =0ATo the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:=0AA new pil ot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determ ine his AOA.=C2- These systems require calibration and testing.=C2- I d oubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet.=C2- Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit d istractions early on.=0A=C2-=0AI have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident.=0A=C2-=0AMy flight test comments are as follows:=0AWe know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws=C2-is not enough. =C2- Retract=C2-tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/ operation, and outrigger lock=C2-operates full proof. =C2-The engine an d fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up.=C2- Th e fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle wi th only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in=C2-5 seconds or less.=C2- Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the W t and Bal form.=C2- (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.)=C2- The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps.=0A =C2-=0AThe electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if ther e is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignit ion only.=C2- (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)=0A=C2-=0AAll engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red li ght distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications).=C2 - Trim must be checked and verified operational.=0A=C2-=0AAll aux syste ms must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transpo nder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off). =0A=C2-=0AThe night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight.=C2- I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems.=0A=C2-=0AFlight one is 15 minutes to check f or runs drips and errors.=C2- (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only,=C2-half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.)=C2-Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the=C2-trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots.=C2-=C2-Return to the pattern,=C2-80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no sl ower than 70 on final.=C2- One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. =C2- Land and pull the cowl and inspect.=C2-=C2- Fix any and everythi ng you found abnormal.=0A=C2-=0AFlight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance.=C2- Check CS prop operation, and clim b 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability.=C2- Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 min ute flight.=C2- If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight.=C2-=C2- (I have needed stall strips on t he root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall.=0A=C2-=0AOnce I a m convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 ho urs and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and h and him the keys for a test hop.=0A=C2-=0AHowever, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual.=C2- Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this.=C2- A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must.=C2- The aircr aft is the last thing I will attempt to save.=C2- Two people flying an un tested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight.=C2- ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was noth ing that you could=C2-have done to make the aircraft safer.)=0A=C2-=0AT ypically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, adv ance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized.=C2- ( I am the technica l observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system o peration and calibration while the client flies.)=C2-=C2-This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc.=C2-gets calibrated or rung out.=C2- =0A=C2- =0AFrankly,=C2-my opinion is that=C2-an AOA systems in straight wing ai rcraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a=C2-well=C2-installed =C2-stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different).=C2-=C2-That said , after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have=C2-"Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention.=C2- Fatigue and complacency do set in=C2-to us all.=C2-=0A=C2-=0AIf one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the airc raft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with styl e and not know it unless looking at the airspeed.=C2- Here is where an AO A, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator,=C2-and proper stall s trip can be handy.=0A=C2-=0ARight now all I can do is pray for the famili es heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous=C2-ai rcraft accidents and my own experiences.=C2-=C2- Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit.=0A=C2-=0ARega rds to all,=0ABud=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=C2-=0A=C2 -=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0ADate: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100=0AFrom: grahamsingleton@btinternet .com=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83 =C2=BCbeck/Germany=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0AGraeme=0AI was referin g to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just=0Aunder th e LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small, =0Aagain easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.A ccurate =0Atemplates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate eno ugh for these subtle=0Acurves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Al ways dropped L wing in a flaps down=0Astall.=0AGraham=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A =0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co. uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57=0AS ubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany=0A=0A--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>=0A=0AInt eresting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is goi ng on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that p oint.=0A=0AYep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thi nking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall charac teristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights.=0A =0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY=0AMono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W =0ANewby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono =0Ag(at)gdbmk.co.uk=0A=0A=0A=0A =0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic. php?p=423188#423188=0Ap; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, Libution" ========0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=C2 -=0A=C2-=0A============0Atarget="_blank">http:/ /www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A========== ==0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0A============0A= "_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A======== ====0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2- - The Europa-List Email Forum -=0A--> http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -=0A-- > http://forums.matronics.com=0A =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - List Contribution Web Site -=0AThank you f or your generous support!=0A=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- -Matt Dralle, List A =======


    Message 5


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    Time: 01:49:10 PM PST US
    From: "Bud Yerly" <budyerly@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: o-8859-1?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List:_RE:_Europa-List:_Re:_Eur?=
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?opa-List:_Re:_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany? Graham, I have the VG test flight and a proposed install manual that went nowhere at Europa on my website today. (www.customflightcreations.com<http://www.customflightcreations.com/> click on techniques articles.) I had a manufacturer make the VGs with a curve on the bottom to fit the wing. I also use a 3M glue that doesn't make a mess and you can reposition them or if you don't like them, pull them off with no paint damage. Right now I am finishing Cooling 102 for the Jabiru installers and trying to finish a really screwed up airplane. I hate redo's. Enough complaining. On to VGs. On your canards, I believe the VGs are a must for better pitch control and on swept wings keep the ailerons corraled. On the Europa, VGs do slow you down about 10 knots but since I don't run around at max continuous doing 146 Knots and burning tons of gas, that doesn't bother me that much. I have had the VGs off for the last two years while I redo some propeller testing for Airmaster and frankly my wheel pants are too low for rough grass so I've stopped STOL / LSA testing. The trigear really doesn't like bumpy rough grass strips so I need to get back to testing on grass so I can get a feel for if I need larger tires. I only put the VGs on the upper surface of the wing. I must admit that I thought about changing the stop imits of my stab and putting the VGs on it as well, but right now with the VGs on the wing only, my poor old classic has scrape marks on the rudder and spats from the asphalt and I still have stick left at 40 KIAS (CG at 60, +13 up -5 down on stab.) What it does, is allow me to give someone with an unfinished kit the ability to lower his clean stall to 45KIAS, and with a 912ULS or Jabiru fitted with a fixed pitch prop set at a bit of a mid range, to meet the LSA stall and max continuous power cruise requirement of 120 (well maybe a knot or two more depending on pitch). For those whose short or rough field woes give them worries, the VGs allow better low speed control, and a lower approach and touchdown speed. The lower touchdown speed and keeping the nose wheel off the turf is critical and without VGs on the stab I can keep the nose up on 12AY but on some really forward CG aircraft, VGs on the stab and a bit of up stab tuning may be necessary. As tested, the aircraft is quite comfortable slow flighting very close to the stall with supurb aileron and pitch control, but the deck angle is a bit high on a dragged in approach. With VGs I can fly a normal 3 degree flight path or steeper at 55 or so and see my touchdown point and cross the threshold at 45-50 and have enough power and control to flare out to a 40 knot touchdown. Alas, the mono's deck angle is so low that you can't land as slow as a trigear, but it sure makes getting the tail wheel down first easier with better roll control should things go a bit askew. Read over my two attachments on the techniques articles on my site. At $130 plus shipping it's a cheap experiment (with lots of extra VGs should you want more to put on the stab) and a lot cheaper than adding wing area or trying to build a new classic wing to get the weight down or change the camber for STOL performance. Regards, Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: GRAHAM SINGLETON<mailto:grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 9:42 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany Bud excellent letter. I am most interested in your VG installation. Did you fit to botn wing and tail? I fitted them to my Long EZ and was delighted with the improvement in low speed handling. Graham ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com<mailto:budyerly@msn.com>> To: europa-list <europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>> Sent: Monday, 12 May 2014, 5:28 Subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany Graham and others. Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil. On the accident comments: I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc. The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps. After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident. My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft. Off the top of my fuzzy balding head: On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning. Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control. Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed. Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed. To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing: A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on. I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident. My flight test comments are as follows: We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps. The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.) All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational. All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off). The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems. Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal. Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall. Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop. However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.) Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out. Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all. If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy. Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit. Regards to all, Bud ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100 From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany To: europa-list@matronics.com Graeme I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small, again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down stall. Graham ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk> To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk<mailto:graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>> Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point. Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188<http://forums .matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188> p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" ====== target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.mat"no follow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f========= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?Europa-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi on>


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:51:08 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: O-8859-1?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_RE:_Europa-List:_Re:_Euro?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?pa-List:_Re:_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/Germany?
    From: Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com>
    Mac Send me photos. Radiator ducting Any firewall forward mods. Coolant type Engine type and prop. Firewall location We will put our heads together and solve it. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe@free.fr> wrote: Hi Bud=2C A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa=99s in particular. The only point in your list which I can=99t execute belongs to temp i n summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot weather comes Max Cointe <mailto:mcointe@free.fr> mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29 =C3 : europa-list Objet : Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany Graham and others. Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cu p sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil. On the accident comments: I hate to speculate=2C but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired=2C leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment=2C etc. The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure i t is made in baby steps. After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft=2C many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident. My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here i s what we discussed on a takeoff leg=2C attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft. Off the top of my fuzzy balding head: On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914=2C the full flap takeoff has a deck an gle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test=2C at 55 knots=2C I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning. Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so=2C one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control. Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed. Clean=2C it wasn't much better=2C in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) wa s necessary to preserve airspeed. To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing: A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on. I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident. My flight test comments are as follows: We know that in the preflight phase=2C Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock=2C flap position/operation=2C and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward=2C aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps. The electrical system must be able to handle the load=2C and if there is a cockpit smoke situation=2C battery off=2C the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.) All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no re d light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational. All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must=2C Transponder is often required=2C ELT operational=2C (I turn AOA and Autopilots off). The night before=2C I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems=2C test parameters=2C panel layout and specifics of comple x electrical systems. Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off=2C feet only=2C half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern=2C 80 on downwind=2C no slower than 75 in the turns =2C and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal. Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance . Check CS prop operation=2C and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verificatio n=2C stalls=2C falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics=2C go back and review the flight. (I have need ed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall. Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready=2C I prebrief wi th him and hand him the keys for a test hop. However=2C I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this . A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( M y rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead=2C and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.) Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls=2C slow flight =2C advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable=2C the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am th e technical observer who is verifying airspeeds=2C pitch angles=2C stall buff et=2C system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where th e AOA=2C Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out. Frankly=2C my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said=2C after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather=2C sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me t hat I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all. If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability=2C watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean=2C you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where a n AOA=2C Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator=2C and proper stall strip can be handy. Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate=2C pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit. Regards to all=2C Bud _____ From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbec k/Germany Graeme I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small=2C again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down stall. Graham _____ From: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk> Sent: Sunday=2C 11 May 2014=2C 18:57 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down=3B but for me a lot i s going on just after take off=2C watching the gauges=2C the speed the VSI=2C changing prop pitch=2C unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its firs t flight=2C I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point. Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions=3B I am just thinking of the message=2C unintentionally=2C its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188 p=3B -Matt Dralle=2C Libution" ====== target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution




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