Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:23 AM - Le Touquet 24 May (David Joyce)
2. 03:02 AM - Re: Le Touquet 24 May (Kevin Kedward)
3. 05:58 AM - life insurance (g-fizy)
4. 06:21 AM - Re: life insurance (danny shepherd)
5. 06:29 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_RE=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?uropa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/G?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ermany? (Jeffrey Roberts)
6. 06:39 AM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List?= =?UTF-8?Q?:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-Li?= =?UTF-8?Q?st:_Re:_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/?= =?UTF-8?Q?Germany? (Max Cointe (Free))
7. 10:04 AM - =?utf-8?B?UmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJFOiBFdXJvcGEt?= =?utf-8?B?TGlzdDogUmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhIGNyYXNoIGluIEw=?= =?utf-8?B?w4PCvGJlY2svR2VybWFueQ==? (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
Message 1
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Subject: | Le Touquet 24 May |
This year's Europa Club Le Touquet trip is due for
Saturday next week. Weather willing always a most
enjoyable day, with a cracking lunch in the town's best
seafood restaurant. Full support for anyone new to cross
channel flying. If interested let me know and I will send
full briefing document. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Le Touquet 24 May |
Hi David,
Please e-mail details to me.
Regards
Kevin Kedward
Sent from my iPhone
> On 14 May 2014, at 10:22, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> This year's Europa Club Le Touquet trip is due for Saturday next week. Weather
willing always a most enjoyable day, with a cracking lunch in the town's best
seafood restaurant. Full support for anyone new to cross channel flying. If
interested let me know and I will send full briefing document. David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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I am having trouble with life insurance ,they dont like flying and dont under stand
aviation ,i have had silly questions like what cc is the aircraft your flying
they also dont like the fact i dont want to be tied into flying just my europa
i also fly pipers ,i am wondering if i should get a seprate flying insurance
,so does any one no a contact for flying life insurance ,,,and have you asked
your life insurance company if your covered ?
regards jim
--------
owner g-fizy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423275#423275
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: life insurance |
I'm with "Stein Financial" they specialise in cover for pilots.
www.flyingcover.co.uk.
Cheers Danny. G-ceri
On 14/05/2014 13:57, g-fizy wrote:
>
> I am having trouble with life insurance ,they dont like flying and dont under
stand aviation ,i have had silly questions like what cc is the aircraft your
flying they also dont like the fact i dont want to be tied into flying just my
europa i also fly pipers ,i am wondering if i should get a seprate flying insurance
,so does any one no a contact for flying life insurance ,,,and have you
asked your life insurance company if your covered ?
>
>
> regards jim
>
> --------
> owner g-fizy
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423275#423275
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_RE=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_E?= |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?uropa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/G?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?ermany?
I had the same problem years back with the regular setup. Tried
everything and nothing worked! Sealed the radiators you name it we did
it.. I finally cut that bottom seal away and dropped the radiators down
another 1.5 inches into the flow better. Never overheated again. Even in
the Florida heat on the hottest days.
Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush / FOR SALE with brand new engine as of last
year!
On May 13, 2014, at 10:49 PM, Bud Yerly wrote:
> Mac
> Send me photos.
> Radiator ducting
> Any firewall forward mods.
> Coolant type
> Engine type and prop.
> Firewall location
>
> We will put our heads together and solve it.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
>
>
> "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe@free.fr> wrote:
>
> Hi Bud,
>
> A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general
and building and flying Europa=92s in particular.
> The only point in your list which I can=92t execute belongs to temp in
summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as
soon as hot weather comes=85
>
> Max Cointe
> mcointe@free.fr
> F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
> Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
>
> F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S
> Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
>
> De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly
> Envoy=E9 : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29
> =C0 : europa-list
> Objet : Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa
crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
>
> Graham and others.
>
> Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that
slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp
stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.
>
> On the accident comments:
> I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and
extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to
use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on
assumptions on should have had equipment, etc.
>
> The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make
sure it is made in baby steps.
> After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting
our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft,
many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
>
> My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago.
Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high
angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
>
> Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
> On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle.
In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a
deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55
Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I
found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
>
> Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is
about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13
degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.
>
> Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires
an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
>
> Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the
deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid
bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about
5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.
>
> To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
> A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment
to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and
testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft
systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads
to more cockpit distractions early on.
>
> I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other
than stall spin accident.
>
> My flight test comments are as follows:
> We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail
plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are
essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger
lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet
proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to
go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total
(the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5
seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward,
aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I
normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The
engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground
for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps.
>
> The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is
a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with
ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
>
> All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and
static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight.
(Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and
altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational.
>
> All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio
is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA
and Autopilots off).
>
> The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over
aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex
electrical systems.
>
> Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors.
(Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one
of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip
above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from
70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than
75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low
approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect.
Fix any and everything you found abnormal.
>
> Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and
performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do
A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically
our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes
well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the
flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early
burble feel prior to stall.
>
> Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft
for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I
prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.
>
> However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the
flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high
to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on
takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to
save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and
sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight
unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her
husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make
the aircraft safer.)
>
> Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow
flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is
comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am
the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall
buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This
is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out.
>
> Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft
is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip
(swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile
leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty"
remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do
set in to us all.
>
> If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed
as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be
falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here
is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and
proper stall strip can be handy.
>
> Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn
from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my
own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned
lessons to those who may benefit.
>
> Regards to all,
> Bud
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100
> From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in
L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
> Graeme
> I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight
bump just
> under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also
quite small,
> again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the
LE.Accurate
> templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough
for these subtle
> curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L
wing in a flaps down
> stall.
> Graham
>
>
> From: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany
>
>
> Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a
lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the
VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the
leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off
if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be
a sudden roll at that point.
>
> Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking
of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The
fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall
characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test
flights.
>
> --------
> Graeme Bird
> G-UMPY
> Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
> Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188
> p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" ======
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
> - The Europa-List Email Forum -
> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> --> http://forums.matronics.com
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> Thank you for your generous support!
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> onics.com
> ww.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: F-8?Q?RE:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List?= =?UTF-8?Q?:_RE:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-Li?= |
=?UTF-8?Q?st:_Re:_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/?= =?UTF-8?Q?Germany?
Graham,
Thanks for the input. I=99m in touch with Bud and we will see what
could be done
Max Cointe
<mailto:mcointe@free.fr> mcointe@free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 13 mai 2014 22:28
=C3 : europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany
Max
is it feasible for you to enclose the exhaust pipe by adding a final
tunnel for cooling air exit? There
is a lot of energy in the exhaust and it will pull the cooling air
through on the ground. Works with Lycomings.
Graham
_____
From: Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr>
Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 18:58
Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa
crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany
Hi Bud,
A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and
building and flying Europa=99s in particular.
The only point in your list which I can=99t execute belongs to
temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be
cautious as soon as hot weather comes
Max Cointe
<mailto:mcointe@free.fr> mcointe@free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly
Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29
=C3 : europa-list
Objet : Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash
in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany
Graham and others.
Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight
cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall
like a normal series 6 airfoil.
On the accident comments:
I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and
extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to
use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on
assumptions on should have had equipment, etc.
The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make
sure it is made in baby steps.
After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting
our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft,
many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident.
My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago.
Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high
angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.
Off the top of my fuzzy balding head:
On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In
testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck
angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55
Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I
found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.
Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about
8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree
push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.
Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires
an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed.
Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck
angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off
unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees)
was necessary to preserve airspeed.
To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing:
A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to
help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing.
I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in
flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more
cockpit distractions early on.
I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other
than stall spin accident.
My flight test comments are as follows:
We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane
angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to
verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates
full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level
and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to
fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and
reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less.
Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test
flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will
fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must
run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25
minutes running at summer time temps.
The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a
cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition
only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.)
All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and
static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight.
(Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and
altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational.
All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is
a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and
Autopilots off).
The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over
aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex
electrical systems.
Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate
acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our
planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50
feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to
100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in
the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if
in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and
everything you found abnormal.
Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and
performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do
A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically
our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes
well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the
flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early
burble feel prior to stall.
Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for
about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief
with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.
However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the
flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high
to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on
takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to
save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and
sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight
unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her
husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make
the aircraft safer.)
Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight,
advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is
comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am
the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall
buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This
is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out.
Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is
a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept
wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in
90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind
me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to
us all.
If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed
as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be
falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here
is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and
proper stall strip can be handy.
Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn
from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my
own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned
lessons to those who may benefit.
Regards to all,
Bud
_____
From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in
L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany
Graeme
I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump
just
under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also
quite small,
again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the
LE.Accurate
templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for
these subtle
curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing
in a flaps down
stall.
Graham
_____
From: graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany
Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot
is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI,
changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the
leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off
if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be
a sudden roll at that point.
Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of
the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact
is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall
characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test
flights.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
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Subject: | =?utf-8?B?UmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJFOiBFdXJvcGEt?= |
=?utf-8?B?TGlzdDogUmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhIGNyYXNoIGluIEw=?=
=?utf-8?B?w4PCvGJlY2svR2VybWFueQ==?
I assumed you were talking about the MCR 4S!=0AGraham=C2-=C2-=C2- =0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Max Cointe (Free) <mc
ointe@free.fr>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, 14 May 2
014, 14:38=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re
: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A=0AGr
aham,=0A=C2-=0AThanks for the input. I=99m in touch with Bud and we
will see what could be done=0A=C2-=0AMax=C2- Cointe=0Amcointe
@free.fr=0AF-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear=0AKit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 4
90 hours=0A=C2-=0AF-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S =0AKit #27-2002 912
ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures=0A=C2-=0ADe=C2-:owner-europa-list-server
@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part d
e GRAHAM SINGLETON=0AEnvoy=C3=A9=C2-: mardi 13 mai 2014 22:28=0A=C3=C2
-: europa-list@matronics.com=0AObjet=C2-: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Ge
rmany=0A=C2-=0AMax=0Ais it feasible for you to enclose the exhaust pipe b
y adding a final tunnel for cooling air exit? There=0Ais a lot of energy in
the exhaust and it will pull the cooling air through on the ground. Works
with Lycomings.=0AGraham=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A___________________________
_____=0A=0AFrom:Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr>=0ATo: europa-list@matro
nics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 18:58=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: R
E: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germ
any=0A=C2-=0AHi Bud,=0A=C2-=0AA lot of respect for your knowledge about
flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa=99s in par
ticular.=0AThe only point in your list which I can=99t execute belong
s to temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cauti
ous as soon as hot weather comes=0A=C2-=0AMax=C2- Cointe=0Amco
inte@free.fr=0AF-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear=0AKit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP3
32 490 hours=0A=C2-=0AF-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S =0AKit #27-2002
912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures=0A=C2-=0ADe=C2-:owner-europa-list-se
rver@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la pa
rt de Bud Yerly=0AEnvoy=C3=A9=C2-: lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29=0A=C3=C2-
: europa-list=0AObjet=C2-: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List:
Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany=0A=C2-=0AGraham and others
.=0A=C2-=0AGood comment on the leading edge curve.=C2- My Classic wing
has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter.=C2- It has a bit
of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.=0A=C2-=0AOn the acciden
t comments:=0AI hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training a
nd extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads=C2-me
to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumpti
ons on=C2-should have had equipment, etc.=0A=C2-=0AThe initial test pha
se of the Europa (or any aircraft)=C2-needs to make sure it is made in ba
by steps.=0AAfter building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas=C2-(yes=C2
-I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other ow
ners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident
.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AMy last call from a US accident inspector was a very lo
ng time ago.=C2- Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted tu
rn=C2-back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and
seasoned aircraft.=0A=C2-=0AOff the top of my fuzzy balding head:=0AOn t
akeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle.=C2- In te
sting of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle
of 10 degrees (and=C2-about a 12.5 degree=C2-angle of attack) at 55 Kno
ts.=C2- When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I
found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.=0A
=C2-=0ASince the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is
about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree
push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.=0A=C2-=0ALesson for e
verybody:=C2- Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressi
ve nose down push to preserve airspeed.=0A=C2-=0AClean, it wasn't much be
tter, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degree
s and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose sl
ightly below the horizon=C2- (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve
airspeed.=0A=C2-=0ATo the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight te
sting:=0AA new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipm
ent to help determine his AOA.=C2- These systems require calibration and
testing.=C2- I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft
systems in flight test yet.=C2- Un-calibrated equipment often times leads
to more cockpit distractions early on.=0A=C2-=0AI have no data on this a
ccident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident.=0A
=C2-=0AMy flight test comments are as follows:=0AWe know that in the pref
light phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws
=C2-is not enough.=C2- Retract=C2-tests are essential to verify gear
lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock=C2-operates full proof.
=C2-The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max ang
le nose up.=C2- The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully pr
imed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side hold
ing 2.5 each across the saddle) in=C2-5 seconds or less.=C2- Complete W
t. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and C
Gs verified on the Wt and Bal form.=C2- (I normally will fly with a minim
um of 10 gallons US on test flights.)=C2- The engine must run flawlessly
idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at su
mmer time temps.=0A=C2-=0AThe electrical system must be able to handle th
e load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine
must run with ignition only.=C2- (914s don't forget the Aux pump operatio
n.)=0A=C2-=0AAll engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pit
ot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight.
(Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitu
de indications).=C2- Trim must be checked and verified operational.=0A=C2
-=0AAll aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio
is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and
Autopilots off). =0A=C2-=0AThe night before, I chair fly and prepare for
the flight.=C2- I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layou
t and specifics of complex electrical systems.=0A=C2-=0AFlight one is 15
minutes to check for runs drips and errors.=C2- (Immediate acceleration t
o 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, fee
t only,=C2-half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.)=C2-Climb t
o 2500 feet or so and check the=C2-trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots.=C2
-=C2-Return to the pattern,=C2-80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in t
he turns, and no slower than 70 on final.=C2- One of two low approaches i
f in a mono is OK.=C2- Land and pull the cowl and inspect.=C2-=C2- Fi
x any and everything you found abnormal.=0A=C2-=0AFlight two expands the
envelope to check engine climb temps and performance.=C2- Check CS prop o
peration, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls
and pitch and roll stability.=C2- Typically our engines are flawless so i
t is only a 45 minute flight.=C2- If all goes well and we have good stall
characteristics, go back and review the flight.=C2-=C2- (I have needed
stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall.
=0A=C2-=0AOnce I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my air
craft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I pre
brief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.=0A=C2-=0AHowever, I
have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual.
=C2- Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this.=C2
- A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is
a must.=C2- The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save.=C2-
Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes w
eight.=C2- ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you
are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is d
ead, and there was nothing that you could=C2-have done to make the aircra
ft safer.)=0A=C2-=0ATypically in the flight phase we go out dual and do s
talls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the
pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized.=C2
- ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles,
stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.)=C2
-=C2-This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc.=C2-gets calibrated or rung
out.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AFrankly,=C2-my opinion is that=C2-an AOA system
s in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a=C2-
well=C2-installed=C2-stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different).
=C2-=C2-That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, so
metimes it is nice to have=C2-"Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not pa
ying attention.=C2- Fatigue and complacency do set in=C2-to us all.=C2
-=0A=C2-=0AIf one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch
your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you coul
d be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed.=C2
- Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator,
=C2-and proper stall strip can be handy.=0A=C2-=0ARight now all I can d
o is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learn
ed from previous=C2-aircraft accidents and my own experiences.=C2-=C2
- Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who ma
y benefit.=0A=C2-=0ARegards to all,=0ABud=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A
=C2-=0A=C2-=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0A_________
_______________________=0A=0ADate: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100=0AFrom:
grahamsingleton@btinternet.com=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re:
Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com
=0AGraeme=0AI was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a sl
ight bump just=0Aunder the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose rad
ius is also quite small,=0Aagain easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine
abrasive round the LE.Accurate =0Atemplates are essential and the plans ve
rsion isn't accurate enough for these subtle=0Acurves. That's what was wron
g with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down=0Astall.=0AGrah
am=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:graeme
bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday,
11 May 2014, 18:57=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2
me@gdbmk.co.uk>=0A=0AInteresting to hear that you can fly with a flap down;
but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the
speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and push
ing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit
off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be
a sudden roll at that point.=0A=0AYep I also value Grahams wisdom and cont
ributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending
to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amate
urs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored duri
ng the test flights.=0A=0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY=0AMono Classic/XS
912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W=0ANewby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono =0Ag(at)gdb
mk.co.uk=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matr
onics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188=0Ap; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======
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