---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/14/14: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:23 AM - Le Touquet 24 May (David Joyce) 2. 03:02 AM - Re: Le Touquet 24 May (Kevin Kedward) 3. 05:58 AM - life insurance (g-fizy) 4. 06:21 AM - Re: life insurance (danny shepherd) 5. 06:29 AM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_RE=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?uropa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/G?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ermany? (Jeffrey Roberts) 6. 06:39 AM - =?UTF-8?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List?= =?UTF-8?Q?:_Re:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-Li?= =?UTF-8?Q?st:_Re:_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/?= =?UTF-8?Q?Germany? (Max Cointe (Free)) 7. 10:04 AM - =?utf-8?B?UmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJFOiBFdXJvcGEt?= =?utf-8?B?TGlzdDogUmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhIGNyYXNoIGluIEw=?= =?utf-8?B?w4PCvGJlY2svR2VybWFueQ==? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:38 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Europa-List: Le Touquet 24 May This year's Europa Club Le Touquet trip is due for Saturday next week. Weather willing always a most enjoyable day, with a cracking lunch in the town's best seafood restaurant. Full support for anyone new to cross channel flying. If interested let me know and I will send full briefing document. David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Le Touquet 24 May From: Kevin Kedward Hi David, Please e-mail details to me. Regards Kevin Kedward Sent from my iPhone > On 14 May 2014, at 10:22, "David Joyce" wrote: > > > > This year's Europa Club Le Touquet trip is due for Saturday next week. Weather willing always a most enjoyable day, with a cracking lunch in the town's best seafood restaurant. Full support for anyone new to cross channel flying. If interested let me know and I will send full briefing document. David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:25 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: life insurance From: "g-fizy" I am having trouble with life insurance ,they dont like flying and dont under stand aviation ,i have had silly questions like what cc is the aircraft your flying they also dont like the fact i dont want to be tied into flying just my europa i also fly pipers ,i am wondering if i should get a seprate flying insurance ,so does any one no a contact for flying life insurance ,,,and have you asked your life insurance company if your covered ? regards jim -------- owner g-fizy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423275#423275 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:49 AM PST US From: danny shepherd Subject: Re: Europa-List: life insurance I'm with "Stein Financial" they specialise in cover for pilots. www.flyingcover.co.uk. Cheers Danny. G-ceri On 14/05/2014 13:57, g-fizy wrote: > > I am having trouble with life insurance ,they dont like flying and dont under stand aviation ,i have had silly questions like what cc is the aircraft your flying they also dont like the fact i dont want to be tied into flying just my europa i also fly pipers ,i am wondering if i should get a seprate flying insurance ,so does any one no a contact for flying life insurance ,,,and have you asked your life insurance company if your covered ? > > > regards jim > > -------- > owner g-fizy > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423275#423275 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:57 AM PST US From: Jeffrey Roberts Subject: Europa-List: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_RE=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?uropa-List=3A_Re=3A_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=BCbeck/G?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ermany? I had the same problem years back with the regular setup. Tried everything and nothing worked! Sealed the radiators you name it we did it.. I finally cut that bottom seal away and dropped the radiators down another 1.5 inches into the flow better. Never overheated again. Even in the Florida heat on the hottest days. Jeff R. N128LJ Gold Rush / FOR SALE with brand new engine as of last year! On May 13, 2014, at 10:49 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > Mac > Send me photos. > Radiator ducting > Any firewall forward mods. > Coolant type > Engine type and prop. > Firewall location > > We will put our heads together and solve it. > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID > > > "Max Cointe (Free)" wrote: > > Hi Bud, > > A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa=92s in particular. > The only point in your list which I can=92t execute belongs to temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot weather comes=85 > > Max Cointe > mcointe@free.fr > F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear > Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours > > F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S > Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures > > De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly > Envoy=E9 : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29 > =C0 : europa-list > Objet : Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > > Graham and others. > > Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil. > > On the accident comments: > I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc. > > The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps. > After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident. > > My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft. > > Off the top of my fuzzy balding head: > On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning. > > Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control. > > Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed. > > Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed. > > To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing: > A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on. > > I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident. > > My flight test comments are as follows: > We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps. > > The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.) > > All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational. > > All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off). > > The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems. > > Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal. > > Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall. > > Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop. > > However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.) > > Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out. > > Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all. > > If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy. > > Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit. > > Regards to all, > Bud > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100 > From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Graeme > I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just > under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small, > again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate > templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle > curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down > stall. > Graham > > > From: graeme bird > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57 > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=BCbeck/Germany > > > Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point. > > Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights. > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY > Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W > Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188 > p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" ====== > > > > > > > > ========== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > - The Europa-List Email Forum - > --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > --> http://forums.matronics.com > - List Contribution Web Site - > Thank you for your generous support! > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > onics.com > ww.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:21 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe (Free)" Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?RE:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-List?= =?UTF-8?Q?:_RE:_Europa-List:_Re:_Europa-Li?= =?UTF-8?Q?st:_Re:_Europa_crash_in_L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/?= =?UTF-8?Q?Germany? Graham, Thanks for the input. I=99m in touch with Bud and we will see what could be done Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de GRAHAM SINGLETON Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 13 mai 2014 22:28 =C3 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany Max is it feasible for you to enclose the exhaust pipe by adding a final tunnel for cooling air exit? There is a lot of energy in the exhaust and it will pull the cooling air through on the ground. Works with Lycomings. Graham _____ From: Max Cointe (Free) Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 18:58 Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany Hi Bud, A lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa=99s in particular. The only point in your list which I can=99t execute belongs to temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cautious as soon as hot weather comes Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 490 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29 =C3 : europa-list Objet : Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany Graham and others. Good comment on the leading edge curve. My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter. It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil. On the accident comments: I hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training and extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumptions on should have had equipment, etc. The initial test phase of the Europa (or any aircraft) needs to make sure it is made in baby steps. After building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas (yes I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other owners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident. My last call from a US accident inspector was a very long time ago. Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted turn back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft. Off the top of my fuzzy balding head: On takeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle. In testing of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and about a 12.5 degree angle of attack) at 55 Knots. When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning. Since the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control. Lesson for everybody: Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressive nose down push to preserve airspeed. Clean, it wasn't much better, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degrees and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose slightly below the horizon (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed. To the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight testing: A new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipment to help determine his AOA. These systems require calibration and testing. I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet. Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on. I have no data on this accident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident. My flight test comments are as follows: We know that in the preflight phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws is not enough. Retract tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock operates full proof. The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max angle nose up. The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully primed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side holding 2.5 each across the saddle) in 5 seconds or less. Complete Wt. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and CGs verified on the Wt and Bal form. (I normally will fly with a minimum of 10 gallons US on test flights.) The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at summer time temps. The electrical system must be able to handle the load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only. (914s don't forget the Aux pump operation.) All engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pitot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitude indications). Trim must be checked and verified operational. All aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off). The night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight. I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layout and specifics of complex electrical systems. Flight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors. (Immediate acceleration to 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, feet only, half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.) Climb to 2500 feet or so and check the trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots. Return to the pattern, 80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in the turns, and no slower than 70 on final. One of two low approaches if in a mono is OK. Land and pull the cowl and inspect. Fix any and everything you found abnormal. Flight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance. Check CS prop operation, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability. Typically our engines are flawless so it is only a 45 minute flight. If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight. (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall. Once I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my aircraft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I prebrief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop. However, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this. A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must. The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save. Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes weight. ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is dead, and there was nothing that you could have done to make the aircraft safer.) Typically in the flight phase we go out dual and do stalls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized. ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.) This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc. gets calibrated or rung out. Frankly, my opinion is that an AOA systems in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a well installed stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, sometimes it is nice to have "Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not paying attention. Fatigue and complacency do set in to us all. If one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you could be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed. Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, and proper stall strip can be handy. Right now all I can do is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learned from previous aircraft accidents and my own experiences. Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who may benefit. Regards to all, Bud _____ From: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany Graeme I was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a slight bump just under the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose radius is also quite small, again easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate templates are essential and the plans version isn't accurate enough for these subtle curves. That's what was wrong with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down stall. Graham _____ From: graeme bird Sent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany Interesting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and pushing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point. Yep I also value Grahams wisdom and contributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amateurs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored during the test flights. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188 p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" ====== target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution - The Europa-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution http:/rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">ht=========== ============ ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:29 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Europa-List: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJFOiBFdXJvcGEt?= =?utf-8?B?TGlzdDogUmU6IEV1cm9wYS1MaXN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhIGNyYXNoIGluIEw=?= =?utf-8?B?w4PCvGJlY2svR2VybWFueQ==? I assumed you were talking about the MCR 4S!=0AGraham=C2-=C2-=C2- =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Max Cointe (Free) =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, 14 May 2 014, 14:38=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re : Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany=0A =0A=0A=0AGr aham,=0A=C2-=0AThanks for the input. I=99m in touch with Bud and we will see what could be done=0A=C2-=0AMax=C2- Cointe=0Amcointe @free.fr=0AF-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear=0AKit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 4 90 hours=0A=C2-=0AF-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S =0AKit #27-2002 912 ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures=0A=C2-=0ADe=C2-:owner-europa-list-server @matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part d e GRAHAM SINGLETON=0AEnvoy=C3=A9=C2-: mardi 13 mai 2014 22:28=0A=C3=C2 -: europa-list@matronics.com=0AObjet=C2-: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Ge rmany=0A=C2-=0AMax=0Ais it feasible for you to enclose the exhaust pipe b y adding a final tunnel for cooling air exit? There=0Ais a lot of energy in the exhaust and it will pull the cooling air through on the ground. Works with Lycomings.=0AGraham=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A___________________________ _____=0A=0AFrom:Max Cointe (Free) =0ATo: europa-list@matro nics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014, 18:58=0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: R E: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germ any=0A=C2-=0AHi Bud,=0A=C2-=0AA lot of respect for your knowledge about flying (safely) in general and building and flying Europa=99s in par ticular.=0AThe only point in your list which I can=99t execute belong s to temp in summer: always cooling problems on ground and have to be cauti ous as soon as hot weather comes=0A=C2-=0AMax=C2- Cointe=0Amco inte@free.fr=0AF-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear=0AKit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP3 32 490 hours=0A=C2-=0AF-PLDJ Dyn=99A=C3=A9ro MCR 4S =0AKit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1600 heures=0A=C2-=0ADe=C2-:owner-europa-list-se rver@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la pa rt de Bud Yerly=0AEnvoy=C3=A9=C2-: lundi 12 mai 2014 06:29=0A=C3=C2- : europa-list=0AObjet=C2-: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany=0A=C2-=0AGraham and others .=0A=C2-=0AGood comment on the leading edge curve.=C2- My Classic wing has that slight cup sanded and filled off by my painter.=C2- It has a bit of a sharp stall like a normal series 6 airfoil.=0A=C2-=0AOn the acciden t comments:=0AI hate to speculate, but the accident investigator training a nd extensive flight envelope expanding time I have acquired, leads=C2-me to use caution speculating at this time and to causes and early on assumpti ons on=C2-should have had equipment, etc.=0A=C2-=0AThe initial test pha se of the Europa (or any aircraft)=C2-needs to make sure it is made in ba by steps.=0AAfter building 18 aircraft 15 of which are Europas=C2-(yes=C2 -I am starting our 16th Europa in the shop) and test flying many other ow ners aircraft, many things can cause a takeoff leg stall spin type accident .=C2- =0A=C2-=0AMy last call from a US accident inspector was a very lo ng time ago.=C2- Here is what we discussed on a takeoff leg, attempted tu rn=C2-back and high angle impact deadly crash of an experienced pilot and seasoned aircraft.=0A=C2-=0AOff the top of my fuzzy balding head:=0AOn t akeoff the Europa has a very good rate of climb and deck angle.=C2- In te sting of 12AY (a Classic) with 914, the full flap takeoff has a deck angle of 10 degrees (and=C2-about a 12.5 degree=C2-angle of attack) at 55 Kno ts.=C2- When pulling the power back abruptly during test, at 55 knots, I found only 3 seconds with the nose up pushed me into the stall warning.=0A =C2-=0ASince the full flap approach angle power of the my old Classic is about 8 degrees glide slope or so, one can see that it requires a 13 degree push over to try to preserve airspeed and control.=0A=C2-=0ALesson for e verybody:=C2- Recovery from a takeoff engine failure requires an aggressi ve nose down push to preserve airspeed.=0A=C2-=0AClean, it wasn't much be tter, in fact with the 914 at 65 knots the deck angle is close to 15 degree s and the results were a very rapid bleed off unless a push over to nose sl ightly below the horizon=C2- (about 5 degrees) was necessary to preserve airspeed.=0A=C2-=0ATo the comments on the web regarding AOA and flight te sting:=0AA new pilot checking his aircraft out is not safe by adding equipm ent to help determine his AOA.=C2- These systems require calibration and testing.=C2- I doubt these folks had time to test and calibrate aircraft systems in flight test yet.=C2- Un-calibrated equipment often times leads to more cockpit distractions early on.=0A=C2-=0AI have no data on this a ccident and doubt I or we will get much other than stall spin accident.=0A =C2-=0AMy flight test comments are as follows:=0AWe know that in the pref light phase, Annex E for wing angles/tail plane angles and control throws =C2-is not enough.=C2- Retract=C2-tests are essential to verify gear lock, flap position/operation, and outrigger lock=C2-operates full proof. =C2-The engine and fuel system must be bullet proof at level and max ang le nose up.=C2- The fuel system must be able to go from empty to fully pr imed at max angle with only 5 gallons total (the main and reserve side hold ing 2.5 each across the saddle) in=C2-5 seconds or less.=C2- Complete W t. and Balance and a review of max forward, aft and test flight loads and C Gs verified on the Wt and Bal form.=C2- (I normally will fly with a minim um of 10 gallons US on test flights.)=C2- The engine must run flawlessly idle to full and not overheat on the ground for 20-25 minutes running at su mmer time temps.=0A=C2-=0AThe electrical system must be able to handle th e load, and if there is a cockpit smoke situation, battery off, the engine must run with ignition only.=C2- (914s don't forget the Aux pump operatio n.)=0A=C2-=0AAll engine instruments and flight instruments/equipment (pit ot and static) must be verified for accuracy and operation prior to flight. (Read as no red light distractions on takeoff or funky airspeed and altitu de indications).=C2- Trim must be checked and verified operational.=0A=C2 -=0AAll aux systems must be operational or placarded and left off. (Radio is a must, Transponder is often required, ELT operational, (I turn AOA and Autopilots off). =0A=C2-=0AThe night before, I chair fly and prepare for the flight.=C2- I go over aircraft systems, test parameters, panel layou t and specifics of complex electrical systems.=0A=C2-=0AFlight one is 15 minutes to check for runs drips and errors.=C2- (Immediate acceleration t o 75 and climb at 90.) (Normally I can fly one of our planes hands off, fee t only,=C2-half way down the 4000 foot strip above 50 feet.)=C2-Climb t o 2500 feet or so and check the=C2-trim and rig from 70 to 100 Knots.=C2 -=C2-Return to the pattern,=C2-80 on downwind, no slower than 75 in t he turns, and no slower than 70 on final.=C2- One of two low approaches i f in a mono is OK.=C2- Land and pull the cowl and inspect.=C2-=C2- Fi x any and everything you found abnormal.=0A=C2-=0AFlight two expands the envelope to check engine climb temps and performance.=C2- Check CS prop o peration, and climb 3 mistakes high and do A/S verification, stalls, falls and pitch and roll stability.=C2- Typically our engines are flawless so i t is only a 45 minute flight.=C2- If all goes well and we have good stall characteristics, go back and review the flight.=C2-=C2- (I have needed stall strips on the root to get a good early burble feel prior to stall. =0A=C2-=0AOnce I am convinced the pilot (who has normally flown in my air craft for about 5 hours and is very current in other types) is ready, I pre brief with him and hand him the keys for a test hop.=0A=C2-=0AHowever, I have been guilty of flying a test flight early into the flight phase dual. =C2- Confidence in the aircraft has to be extremely high to do this.=C2 - A thorough brief of what will happen if the engine quits on takeoff is a must.=C2- The aircraft is the last thing I will attempt to save.=C2- Two people flying an untested aircraft is too much exposure and sometimes w eight.=C2- ( My rule is the plane is not ready for test flight unless you are prepared to knock on the test pilots door and explain her husband is d ead, and there was nothing that you could=C2-have done to make the aircra ft safer.)=0A=C2-=0ATypically in the flight phase we go out dual and do s talls, slow flight, advance handling at minimum speeds and ascertain if the pilot is comfortable, the stalls are predictable and easily recognized.=C2 - ( I am the technical observer who is verifying airspeeds, pitch angles, stall buffet, system operation and calibration while the client flies.)=C2 -=C2-This is where the AOA, Autopilot etc.=C2-gets calibrated or rung out.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AFrankly,=C2-my opinion is that=C2-an AOA system s in straight wing aircraft is a waste of money for me and I prefer a=C2- well=C2-installed=C2-stall strip (swept wing aircraft are different). =C2-=C2-That said, after the 3rd 300 mile leg in 90F degree weather, so metimes it is nice to have=C2-"Bitching Betty" remind me that I am not pa ying attention.=C2- Fatigue and complacency do set in=C2-to us all.=C2 -=0A=C2-=0AIf one adds my vortex generators for STOL capability, watch your speed as the aircraft handles so well down to 50 Knots clean, you coul d be falling with style and not know it unless looking at the airspeed.=C2 - Here is where an AOA, Airspeed Warner like the Europa Stall indicator, =C2-and proper stall strip can be handy.=0A=C2-=0ARight now all I can d o is pray for the families heartbreak and learn from the lessons hard learn ed from previous=C2-aircraft accidents and my own experiences.=C2-=C2 - Then when appropriate, pass on the hard learned lessons to those who ma y benefit.=0A=C2-=0ARegards to all,=0ABud=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A =C2-=0A=C2-=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0A_________ _______________________=0A=0ADate: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:03:53 +0100=0AFrom: grahamsingleton@btinternet.com=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2=BCbeck/Germany=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0AGraeme=0AI was refering to the Classic Europa wing. The section has a sl ight bump just=0Aunder the LE which is very easily sanded off. The nose rad ius is also quite small,=0Aagain easy to sand off even with a sheet of fine abrasive round the LE.Accurate =0Atemplates are essential and the plans ve rsion isn't accurate enough for these subtle=0Acurves. That's what was wron g with G-KWIP's wing. Always dropped L wing in a flaps down=0Astall.=0AGrah am=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:graeme bird =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, 11 May 2014, 18:57=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Europa crash in L=C3=83=C2 me@gdbmk.co.uk>=0A=0AInteresting to hear that you can fly with a flap down; but for me a lot is going on just after take off, watching the gauges, the speed the VSI, changing prop pitch, unlocking to get the wheel up and push ing the leaver with the right hand etc - maybe the spring/tension is a bit off if its first flight, I am not sure how I would cope if there were to be a sudden roll at that point.=0A=0AYep I also value Grahams wisdom and cont ributions; I am just thinking of the message, unintentionally, its sending to current builders. The fact is hundreds have been made by imperfect amate urs and the stall characteristics are one of the first things explored duri ng the test flights.=0A=0A--------=0AGraeme Bird=0AG-UMPY=0AMono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W=0ANewby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono =0Ag(at)gdb mk.co.uk=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matr onics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423188#423188=0Ap; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, Libution" ======= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=========== =0Atarget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A= ===========0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0A==== ========0A="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A============0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - The Europa-List Email Forum -=0A--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - MAT RONICS WEB FORUMS -=0A--> http://forums.matronics.com=0A=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - List Contribution Web Site -=0AThank you for your generous=0Asupport!=0A=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.=0A--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=C2-=0Ahttp:/rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums. matronics.com/">ht=================== ======0A://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.c om/contribution=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - The Europa-List Email Forum Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse=0A--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator ?Europa-List=0A=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS Same great content also ava ilable via the Web Forums!=0A--> http://forums.matronics.com=0A =C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - List Cont ribution Web Site -=0AThank you for your generous support!=0A=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.=0A--> http://www.matronics.com/contr ================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.