---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/04/14: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:15 AM - Re: coolant thermostat uk (Nigel Graham) 2. 01:03 AM - Re: coolant thermostat uk (Richard Wheelwright) 3. 02:07 AM - Re: coolant thermostat uk (Kevin Challis) 4. 03:25 AM - Re: coolant thermostat uk (GTH) 5. 04:24 AM - Re: coolant thermostat uk (Frans Veldman) 6. 04:34 AM - Re: SkyYiew antenna (Bud Yerly) 7. 04:51 AM - Re: coolant thermostat uk (Ian Cook) 8. 05:38 AM - Re: coolant thermostat uk (Nigel Graham) 9. 10:40 AM - Plastic Micro Balloons (rparigoris) 10. 02:47 PM - Re: coolant thermostat uk (GTH) 11. 02:49 PM - Re: coolant thermostat uk (GTH) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:43 AM PST US From: Nigel Graham Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk I would be very interested to hear how successful this is once fitted and tested (either on or off list). With regards to oil over-temp should the water coolant be lost, I think you might be surprised how resilient a modern full-synthetic oil is (which can be used in a 9 series engine as long as you don't run 100LL). On a reduced power decent I think you would get away with it. Nigel On 04/06/2014 07:13, Christoph Both wrote: > Just bought one of these on my trip to Germany and look forward to > installing the oil/cooling water exchange unit. My issue is a used oil > rad for the 80hp engine but I have a 100hp. Runs fine in cruise but > climb is limited to 5 min at full throttle going over 130 degrees > celsius oil temps. I decided to stay away from removing the old > radiator, though, as Silent Hektik recommends as in case of cooling > fluid loss my engine will be toast in seconds compared with keeping > the old rad and flying home in limp mode. > Just my thoughts, > Christoph Both > #223 > Wolfville, Canada > > From: Nigel Graham > > " > > Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 at 2:55 AM > To: "europa-list@matronics.com " > > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk > > > Keith, Karl, I have been looking at this range of oil and water > thermostats from the German company Silent Hektic: > > http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_912_Thermo.htm > > Their products look well made (though I haven't bought anything yet). > Attached is a translation fyi. > > Nigel > > (I have no commercial connection with this organisation) > > On 04/06/2014 00:30, Keith Hickling wrote: >> Karl, >> I have been planning to install a coolant thermostat too. Could you >> please post the details of the manufacturer or supplier, model no etc >> so I can try to source one if Conair no longer supply it? >> Many thanks, >> Keith Hickling. >> >> *From:* Karl Heindl >> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 04, 2014 6:41 AM >> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com >> *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk >> >> Hi William, >> >> I have the coolant thermostat kit from Conair, but decided not to >> install it. I can sell it to you at the original price plus postage. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Karl >> >> >> > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:01 AM PST US From: Richard Wheelwright Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk Nigel,=0A- - I find with the water Coolant stat, that the engine temp w ill climb to 100 degrees on a warm day on clime out. once cruse is establis hed, temperatures settle down to 80 degrees. There is no coverings on the r adiators and allows full cooling. Everything as it should be, I'm very happ y with the stat.=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 8:03, Nigel Graham < nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0AI would be very interested to hear how successful this is once fitted and tested (either on or off lis t).=0AWith regards to oil over-temp should the water coolant be lost, I=0A think you might be surprised how resilient a modern full-synthetic=0A oil is (which can be used in a 9 series engine as long as you don't=0A run 100LL). On a reduced power decent I think you would get away=0A with it. =0A=0ANigel=0A=0A=0AOn 04/06/2014 07:13, Christoph Both wrote:=0A=0AJu st bought one of these on my trip to Germany and look forward to installing the oil/cooling water exchange unit. My issue is a used oil rad for the 80 hp engine but I have a 100hp. Runs fine in cruise but climb is limited to 5 min at full throttle going over 130 degrees celsius oil temps. I decided t o stay away from removing the old radiator, though, as Silent Hektik recomm ends as in case of cooling fluid loss my engine will be toast in seconds co mpared with keeping the old rad and flying home in limp mode.=0AJust my tho ughts,=0AChristoph Both=0A#223=0AWolfville, Canada=0A=0AFrom: Nigel Graham pa-list@matronics.com>=0ADate: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 at 2:55 AM=0ATo: "eu ropa-list@matronics.com" =0ASubject: Re: Europa- List: coolant thermostat uk=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AKeith, Karl, I have been looking at this range of oil and=0A water thermostats from the German co mpany Silent Hektic:=0A=0Ahttp://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_912_Thermo.htm=0A =0ATheir products look well made (though I haven't bought=0A any thing yet). Attached is a translation fyi.=0A=0ANigel=0A=0A(I have no comme rcial connection with this organisation)=0A=0A=0AOn 04/06/2014 00:30, Keith Hickling wrote:=0A =0AKarl,=0AI have been planning to install a coolant th ermostat too. Could you please post the details of the manufacturer or supp lier, model no etc so I can try to source one if Conair no longer supply it ? =0A-=0AMany thanks,=0AKeith Hickling.=0A-=0A=0A=0AFrom: Karl Heindl =0ASent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 6:41 AM=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASubject: RE: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk=0A=0AHi William, =0A=0AI have the coolant thermostat kit from Conair, but decided not to install it . I can sell it to you at the original price plus postage.=0A=0ACheers,=0A =========================0A ======================= ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk From: Kevin Challis Unfortunately my 912S Europa suffered coolant loss on climb out last autumn s o low uk outside temperature and still even though the pilot throttled strai ght back and landed straight away the damage to the engine was all heads scr ap and 1 barrel scrap. Kevin Challis G ODJG > On 4 Jun 2014, at 09:03, Nigel Graham wrote: > > I would be very interested to hear how successful this is once fitted and t ested (either on or off list). > With regards to oil over-temp should the water coolant be lost, I think yo u might be surprised how resilient a modern full-synthetic oil is (which can be used in a 9 series engine as long as you don't run 100LL). On a reduced p ower decent I think you would get away with it. > > Nigel > >> On 04/06/2014 07:13, Christoph Both wrote: >> Just bought one of these on my trip to Germany and look forward to instal ling the oil/cooling water exchange unit. My issue is a used oil rad for the 80hp engine but I have a 100hp. Runs fine in cruise but climb is limited to 5 min at full throttle going over 130 degrees celsius oil temps. I decided t o stay away from removing the old radiator, though, as Silent Hektik recomme nds as in case of cooling fluid loss my engine will be toast in seconds comp ared with keeping the old rad and flying home in limp mode. >> Just my thoughts, >> Christoph Both >> #223 >> Wolfville, Canada >> >> From: Nigel Graham >> Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 at 2:55 AM >> To: "europa-list@matronics.com" >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk >> >> >> >> Keith, Karl, I have been looking at this range of oil and water thermosta ts from the German company Silent Hektic: >> >> http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_912_Thermo.htm >> >> Their products look well made (though I haven't bought anything yet). Att ached is a translation fyi. >> >> Nigel >> >> (I have no commercial connection with this organisation) >> >>> On 04/06/2014 00:30, Keith Hickling wrote: >>> Karl, >>> I have been planning to install a coolant thermostat too. Could you plea se post the details of the manufacturer or supplier, model n o etc so I can try to source one if Conair no longer supply it? >>> >>> Many thanks, >>> Keith Hickling. >>> >>> >>> From: Karl Heindl >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 6:41 AM >>> To: europa-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk >>> >>> Hi William, >>> >>> I have the coolant thermostat kit from Conair, but decided not to instal l it. I can sell it to you at the original price plus post age. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Karl > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:26 AM PST US From: GTH Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk Nigel Graham a crit : > I would be very interested to hear how successful this is once fitted > and tested (either on or off list). > With regards to oil over-temp should the water coolant be lost, I > think you might be surprised how resilient a modern full-synthetic oil > is (which can be used in a 9 series engine as long as you don't run > 100LL). On a reduced power decent I think you would get away with it. Nigel and all, I respectfully beg to differ with the above statement. As some listers here may know I've been conducting extensive oil and water cooling tests on a 914. Whereas in-flight heat rejection through oil and water actual numbers are not totally in agreement with the Rotax ground bench numbers, the coolant plays a key role, and total loss of coolant is definitely a major issue. I seriously question the chances of engine in-flight survival for more than a very short time at idle. If you happen to have solid data on experiments on Rotax engines with partial or total loss of coolant I would be much interested and willing to publish them on Contrails ! Concerning the coolant thermostat option, the question is, do you value lightness, simplicity and low drag or not ? And above all, do you have ample cooling, since the idea is to always provide excess cooling and just throttle the oil flow to help oil warming up. A thermostat helps oil *warming*, not cooling, at the price of additionnal weight and constant cooling drag penalty. As I understand that some Europa builders experience marginal cooling, they may wish to first fix the cooling airflow issue. FWIW, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:10 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/04/2014 12:24 PM, GTH wrote: > Concerning the coolant thermostat option, the question is, do you > value lightness, simplicity and low drag or not ? A thermostat > helps oil *warming*, not cooling, at the price of additionnal > weight and constant cooling drag penalty. I was waiting for someone to bring this up. ;-) It is *much* better to create a cowl flap at the air exit to regulate the amount of cooling air through the system. 1) It lowers drag, and thus gives you either less fuel consumption, extended range, or higher speed. 2) It is easier and safer. With the well known trim servo it is easy to set up a flap in the air exit that can be retracted against the air flow. If it breaks, the air flow will push the flap open. Cooling thermostats come with extra hose connections, and are not without issues themselves. I have such a system and it works perfect. With a trim alike button I can modulate the cowl flap and see an almost immediate response on the water temp gauge. I can do something that a coolant thermostat not can do: anticipate. Before commencing a long descents (or before starting to climb) I can adjust the cowl flap. Give some extra cooling before starting a prolonged climb, or let the engine heat up a bit more before pulling the power for a long descent. Frans -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJTjw1aAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVwcAQAMbwSS5DDRHOFp5qrh/SJHxr 3WNA0ezhJgDoyJUQHZg86hIaE+gj/kq+squqILGdMVeUCP0MHBwJTIYiXbE/t4nO sLZguzBqKWSv6MG+A/L+daArgHBthyfZntGM4ds7kelMJLyISzFaAc0rfqGHrhYA yME/JtS5t7Cq+VDd6H+qePiFK6V5syDbU4g3aFBq8Eo+a7bNVp31ix8b9pZscKWW QUXjX48NU8BQTQj/WY3q0xzc6TkcllLNM2cy5r4hLiOA9d3eVYDuFuGC0j+cUhje Dg52xI34YWr+6hr4O5/JBUwlC5s4MW13Z9H7bNuY6jRDMhJ4k9nhjayK5YljyAh/ oF2baSBV6GX8lccCk/SWKOaorClNt+TCWm0EQkbqyOv5L9UyZTnTcV72W7rwnZDH CafNC1eYdcrtLlD6j1nR+R4SprlgVOBe2p2DnpEuyoHJRoyYbsvX+9Dxe128eecc 0vQQwpLOnOsK46OpesFLtT+oD3NEbk3v5h1MsqL+8VNaDqhynwoh0G3IxEfOGXcw qk7wz2Cgty6asS1YiYk+KvL6tKzhpGpHXoLWl8tthSwZxfCAehOtLpFMXfMyHHsN ugLYEfuKei1s0+5nv6VziWVjrMYWz/UwB5kKPjAklK1LIxFsCOyesOACYdgYEEfQ YoHiiJjld1DWJWzVbpae =LGHQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: SkyYiew antenna From: Bud Yerly Excellent place. Just more wire. I put as much as possible in the panel so as to be able to test the entire panel=2C less autopilot servos=2C on the bench. Just add power and my com dongle=2C and play with it. IFR instrument certs are a snap normally=2C h owever=2C I am amazed how resistant com shops are to doing a panel removal =2C and bench work. Local avionics guys love my panels=2C others are conf used. Drawback is the panel has 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag. Bit tight on an IFR panel. Bud Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Fred Klein wrote: Budbecause of concerns for available space within the instrument m odule=2C I=99ve opted to locate my SV-250-GPS puck in my overhead con sole=2C midway (in two axes) between the door hinges=2C hopefully avoiding any potential RF interference problems. I appreciate being alerted to both the RF issue as well as the visual refle ction issue had I just plunked the puck down on the top surface of the modu le (which I was about to do) before receiving various listers=99 comm ents and recommendations. F. On Jun 3=2C 2014=2C at 5:19 AM=2C Bud Yerly wrote: > One of the reasons for using a metal inverted hat is to limit direct RF f rom the radio stack. Orient it laterally. Its worked so far. > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:48 AM PST US From: Ian Cook Subject: RE: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk Frans=2C I would be most interested in a few more details as my Motor Glider is just going through the certification process for the LAA in the UK=2C and this would be a very useful modification to include. Regards Ian cook > Date: Wed=2C 4 Jun 2014 14:13:14 +0200 > From: frans@privatepilots.nl > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 06/04/2014 12:24 PM=2C GTH wrote: > > > Concerning the coolant thermostat option=2C the question is=2C do you > > value lightness=2C simplicity and low drag or not ? A thermostat > > helps oil *warming*=2C not cooling=2C at the price of additionnal > > weight and constant cooling drag penalty. > > I was waiting for someone to bring this up. =3B-) > It is *much* better to create a cowl flap at the air exit to regulate > the amount of cooling air through the system. > 1) It lowers drag=2C and thus gives you either less fuel consumption=2C > extended range=2C or higher speed. > 2) It is easier and safer. With the well known trim servo it is easy > to set up a flap in the air exit that can be retracted against the air > flow. If it breaks=2C the air flow will push the flap open. > Cooling thermostats come with extra hose connections=2C and are not > without issues themselves. > > I have such a system and it works perfect. With a trim alike button I > can modulate the cowl flap and see an almost immediate response on the > water temp gauge. > I can do something that a coolant thermostat not can do: anticipate. > Before commencing a long descents (or before starting to climb) I can > adjust the cowl flap. Give some extra cooling before starting a > prolonged climb=2C or let the engine heat up a bit more before pulling > the power for a long descent. > > Frans > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) > > iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJTjw1aAAoJEC+zXxqs0ZzVwcAQAMbwSS5DDRHOFp5qrh/SJHxr > 3WNA0ezhJgDoyJUQHZg86hIaE+gj/kq+squqILGdMVeUCP0MHBwJTIYiXbE/t4nO > sLZguzBqKWSv6MG+A/L+daArgHBthyfZntGM4ds7kelMJLyISzFaAc0rfqGHrhYA > yME/JtS5t7Cq+VDd6H+qePiFK6V5syDbU4g3aFBq8Eo+a7bNVp31ix8b9pZscKWW > QUXjX48NU8BQTQj/WY3q0xzc6TkcllLNM2cy5r4hLiOA9d3eVYDuFuGC0j+cUhje > Dg52xI34YWr+6hr4O5/JBUwlC5s4MW13Z9H7bNuY6jRDMhJ4k9nhjayK5YljyAh/ > oF2baSBV6GX8lccCk/SWKOaorClNt+TCWm0EQkbqyOv5L9UyZTnTcV72W7rwnZDH > CafNC1eYdcrtLlD6j1nR+R4SprlgVOBe2p2DnpEuyoHJRoyYbsvX+9Dxe128eecc > 0vQQwpLOnOsK46OpesFLtT+oD3NEbk3v5h1MsqL+8VNaDqhynwoh0G3IxEfOGXcw > qk7wz2Cgty6asS1YiYk+KvL6tKzhpGpHXoLWl8tthSwZxfCAehOtLpFMXfMyHHsN > ugLYEfuKei1s0+5nv6VziWVjrMYWz/UwB5kKPjAklK1LIxFsCOyesOACYdgYEEfQ > YoHiiJjld1DWJWzVbpae > =LGHQ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:42 AM PST US From: Nigel Graham Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk Gilles et al, ..... and I respectfully bow to your testing and experience. The importance of the coolant system is certainly not lost on me. While you are probably not aware of it, I have done a lot of work to develop a fully ducted water/oil radiator with full diffuser, nozzle and cowl flap in an effort to reduce cooling drag and improve cooling efficiency. If the Rotax published literature is to be believed, the 9 series engines should be able to run for up to fifteen minutes on a reduced power setting in the event of a coolant loss, to enable the hapless pilot to reach the ground safely. Indeed they justify the unusual configuration that combines the complexity of water cooled cylinder heads with inefficiency of air cooled cylinder barrels for that reason. Your experimentation and the experience of coolant failure of others begs an interesting question, if the Rotax air cooled barrels do not offer any increased endurance in the event of coolant loss - why use air-cooled barrels? Water cooled barrels would offer far better heat distribution and thus less localised distortion and allow tighter tolerance pistons that in turn would develop greater power with less noise. With regards to thermostats, your comment were perhaps intended for the original poster. I was referring to the scenario from a previous poster, where the coolant has been lost and the engine is still running. Under these conditions you can reasonably expect the oil temperature to rise (to possibly critical levels) and I was trying to indicate that a synthetic oil could possibly withstand these extreme conditions. Nigel On 04/06/2014 11:24, GTH wrote: > > Nigel Graham a crit : >> I would be very interested to hear how successful this is once fitted >> and tested (either on or off list). >> With regards to oil over-temp should the water coolant be lost, I >> think you might be surprised how resilient a modern full-synthetic >> oil is (which can be used in a 9 series engine as long as you don't >> run 100LL). On a reduced power decent I think you would get away with >> it. > > Nigel and all, > > I respectfully beg to differ with the above statement. > As some listers here may know I've been conducting extensive oil and > water cooling tests on a 914. > Whereas in-flight heat rejection through oil and water actual numbers > are not totally in agreement with the Rotax ground bench numbers, the > coolant plays a key role, and total loss of coolant is definitely a > major issue. I seriously question the chances of engine in-flight > survival for more than a very short time at idle. > If you happen to have solid data on experiments on Rotax engines with > partial or total loss of coolant I would be much interested and > willing to publish them on Contrails ! > > Concerning the coolant thermostat option, the question is, do you > value lightness, simplicity and low drag or not ? > And above all, do you have ample cooling, since the idea is to always > provide excess cooling and just throttle the oil flow to help oil > warming up. > A thermostat helps oil *warming*, not cooling, at the price of > additionnal weight and constant cooling drag penalty. > As I understand that some Europa builders experience marginal cooling, > they may wish to first fix the cooling airflow issue. > > FWIW, > Best regards, ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:40 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Plastic Micro Balloons From: "rparigoris" Hi Group I was speaking with someone that mentioned that a Company near my office on Long Island New York sells Plastic Micro Balloons: http://www.reinforcedplasticslab.net/ Just figured I would mention. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424356#424356 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:18 PM PST US From: GTH Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk Nigel Graham a crit : > > > The importance of the coolant system is certainly not lost on me. > While you are probably not aware of it, I have done a lot of work to > develop a fully ducted water/oil radiator with full diffuser, nozzle > and cowl flap in an effort to reduce cooling drag and improve cooling > efficiency. Nigel, Thank you for your message and your indications, and please pardon me for the confusion about the original posters. Congratulations on your cooling developments, in my opinion it is really worth the effort. With our engine installation, we are able to choose any running temp within the green arc in climb, cruise, descent. > Your experimentation and the experience of coolant failure of others > begs an interesting question, if the Rotax air cooled barrels do not > offer any increased endurance in the event of coolant loss - why use > air-cooled barrels? > Water cooled barrels would offer far better heat distribution and thus > less localised distortion and allow tighter tolerance pistons that in > turn would develop greater power with less noise. Here are some musings on the subject : - Concerning the barrel temperatures, we must consider that the cooling needs of the barrels are an order of magnitude less than those of the heads, so liquid cooling is probably not worth the hassles. - With separate cylinders and air-cooled barrels, there is no risk of mixing oil and coolant in the event of a blown gasket like it sometimes happens in automobiles. - Also I noticed that the Rotax heads behave like "temperature wells" that directly drive the barrel temperatures, so barrel cooling is definitely not an issue as long as the heads are correctly cooled. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:43 PM PST US From: GTH Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant thermostat uk GTH a crit : > that the Rotax heads behave like "temperature wells" that directly > drive the barrel temperatures, Or maybe "heat sinks" ? Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.