---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/12/14: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:16 AM - Re: Re: europa dash panel (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 2. 01:37 AM - Re: Stick Grips NOW TRIM MOTOR AND RELAY DECK. (Gavin Lee) 3. 02:23 AM - multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! (Rowland Carson) 4. 02:45 AM - Re: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! (Sky Mail) 5. 03:22 AM - Re: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! (houlihan) 6. 03:56 AM - Re: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! (Sky Mail) 7. 03:44 PM - Re: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! (Tony Renshaw) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:32 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: europa dash panel I like his stick grips {{-)=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________ ________=0A From: Tony Renshaw =0ATo: europa-list @matronics.com; PETER MORGANS =0ASent: Thu rsday, 12 June 2014, 3:57=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: europa dash panel =0A =0A=0A=0Ahi Peter,=0ABefore you fully decide, have a look at this panel by Gerry Holland.=0AHope this helps rather than hinders. I think it is the best panel I have seen on a Europa.=0ARegards=0ATony Renshaw=0AI=99m going to stick with my smaller panel though, but I do love this.=C2-=0A =0AOn 12 Jun 2014, at 10:34 am, PETER MORGANS wrote:=0A=0AHi Rowland,=0A>It's probably me - I spoke with Andy a coupl e of weeks ago after reading your excellent article In the Europa Flyer; I' ve=C2-just spent so much time deciding which panel layout to use and what would fit I the space available. I think I'm there now, so will send off . dxf to Andy. Attached is pdf of my AutoCAD dwg.=0A>It was so nice to speak to someone with the 'can do' attitude.=0A>I mentioned your article and was going to send him a copy.=0A>=0A>=0A>Incidentally, I'm down in Milford Have n so there might be also someone else in Merthyr.=0A>Regards=0A>Peter Morga ns=0A>=0A>From: Rowland Carson =0A>To: Europa e-ma il list list =0A>Sent: Wednesday, 11 June 2014, 16:58=0A>Subject: Europa-List: Re: europa dash panel=0A> =0A>=0A>--> Europ a-List message posted by: Rowland Carson =0A>=0A>O n 11 Jun 2014, at 13:31, Andy Jones wrote:=0A>=0A>> Hello,=0A>> =0A>> A cou ple of weeks ago=0A I=C2- had a phone call regarding=C2- the cutting of another dash panel, can=99t remember the guys name, said he was down in Merthyr Tydfil..=0A>> =0A>> He was going to send a profile drawing, but as yet I have seen nothing,=C2- do you know who he was?=C2- He had see n your panel which I cut for you last year..=0A>> =0A>> Regards=0A>> =0A>> Andy=0A>=0A>Andy - I seem to recall a query on the Europa builders e-mail l ist a while back, but I can't locate it just now. I'm copying this reply to the Europa e-mail list in the hope that it will jog the appropriate person into getting in touch with you again.=0A>=0A>Is anyone on the Europa list in Merthyr Tydfil trying to get in touch with Andy at Herbert Phillips abou t water-jet cutting of an instrument panel?=0A>=0A>Incidentally, Andy, I mu st say how pleased I am with the results of your water-jet cutting. Here's a link to how the panel looks now that I have had it anodized black, the=0A labels laser-etched on it, and the instruments installed.=0A>=0A>http://ww w.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/radio_panel_populated.php=0A>=0A >in friendship=0A>=0A>Rowland=0A>=0A>| Rowland Carson=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...=0A>| =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- http://www.rowlandcarson.org.u k/=0A>| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson=C2- =C2- =C2- Facebook: Rowlan d Carson=0A>| pictures: httef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa- List" target="_blank">htt =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 - =C2- =C2- =C2- &nbs//www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_b lank">http://www.matronics.co=============== ====0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:37:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Stick Grips NOW TRIM MOTOR AND RELAY DECK. From: Gavin Lee Correct, if you do not use a relay deck you will need to use a separate swit ch to switch between which trim switch you want to operate the trim from Go to rayallencompany.com and they will have a wiring diagram for differen t combinations of switching. One of which will suit yours Regards Gavin Lee...... ZK-EPA > On 11/06/2014, at 10:48 pm, "Brian Davies" wrot e: > > Tony, > > You only need one if you are controlling trim from more than one source. e ..g. panel switch and stick grip switches or both stick grips. The standard E uropa configuration does not need a relay deck. > > Regards > > Brian > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Renshaw > Sent: 10 June 2014 23:50 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Stick Grips NOW TRIM MOTOR AND RELAY DECK. > > Hi Bob and William, > Here is the relay deck. Not sure why we need one, or if, as to my knowledg e I was never supplied one, nor have I checked the manual to see if it is in cluded in the wiring diagram. Pretty remiss of Europa if the servo actually n eeds one of these things, which is why I am wondering if it is a mod, Bob. I t says for every servo you need one of these relays. Does anyone know what t hey actually do, and why it states they are needed? I can run my servo direc tly from a 12 V power supply with no problem. > Regards > Tony Renshaw > > Sent from my iPad > > On 11 Jun 2014, at 1:51 am, "Bob Harrison" wrote: > > Hi! William. > The question initially has revolved around the length of the control stick and loads needed when out of maximum trim. > My issue was nothing to do with the trim motor, however in your position y ou should plan the securing of it so that you would be able to remove it in a n unlikely eventuality of failure because when the top is on it is a bastard to access. However recently there was much chat about the plastic clevis es needing 1/8=9D removed from their threaded ends before linking them with the brass threaded rod to facilitate more movement of the trim and sta bilators on final inspection.( Hopefully you picked up on that ?) > My trim reversal problem was not to do with the trim motor but the relay d eck it had an inherent fault which became masked once the motor had travelle d to full trim and I had numerous major debates with the Menzemer chaps alwa ys culminating in them alleging my wiring was at fault. Until one day I had y et another event and when I contacted them I discovered that they were now s upplying the MARK II relay deck which is faultless but of different shape al so making it an arse to shift things around on the back of the panel. > You need to shout out on the Europa Club pages as to how many others have h ad this problem and then probably =9Cbite the bullet=9D and get t he MARK II fitted and done with it. > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell > Sent: 10 June 2014 14:50 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Stick Grips > > Thanks...but you had a runaway trim? if is was a particular model I am wo ndering whether I shd change my trim motor (Mac) prior to putting the top on (I cant imgaine this is much fun with the top on!) > > William Daniell > LONGPORT > +57 310 295 0744 > > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Bob Harrison wrot e: > Hi! William > ................Just don=99t shorten the control stick ......use the bent one and fix it by rotating it to best position. > Regards > Bob Harrison. > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell > Sent: 10 June 2014 13:20 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Stick Grips > > whassat....Bob I dont remember that issue can you enlighten on the trim is sue please > Will > > William Daniell > LONGPORT > +57 310 295 0744 > > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:56 AM, Lance Sandford w rote: > > Bob > > Thanks Bob. That is about what I suspected. > > Regards > > Lance Sandford > > > On 10/06/14 18:09, Bob Harrison wrote: > > Answer:- NO SHORTER WHATEVER. TO LAND FULLY NOSE UP TRIM IT WOULD BE Extr emely difficult on your own ! but power assisted by the passenger probably ! But the extreme loads are a question over the mechanical strengths of the l inkages ! When I had to go to fully trimmed up to get the damn relay deck t o reverse it was easier to let it go fully nose up trim and pray the deck wo uld let itself reverse when it got to the end of travel. Been there done tha t when Menzimer was insisting my problem was wiring when in actual fact they eventually discovered that the end of the travel by the relay masked the ac tual problem in the relay . Since I fitted the MARK II relay deck never a pr oblem !!!!! > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lance Sandford > Sent: 10 June 2014 01:13 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Stick Grips > > --> > > Question for those who have test flown their Europa. > > How far can you shorten the control stick and still comfortably land the a ircraft with the stabilizer stuck at full travel in either direction , witho ut being Superman? > > Lance Sandford > > > > > > > ========== > st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > MS - > k">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > e - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > a-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > //forums.matronics.com > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4592 / 06/10/14 > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:59 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! Further to all the talk of relay decks, there is another way to allow more than 1 trim switch, available from the proprietor of this forum, Matt Dralle, in the form of The Governor - here's a link to it: http://www.matronics.com/governor/ Its primary function is to allow for the trim servo speed to be adjusted - I understand some folk have found the natural speed of the servo too high for their liking - but as bonus you can add as many extra trim switches as you want. (eg one on the panel and one on each stick-top.) I have fitted one to my trim circuit and in my tests so far (not yet flying) I find it is entirely satisfactory. In the picture of my panel (I posted a link to it yesterday) the small hole at bottom left adjacent to the trim switch is for screwdriver adjustment of the trim speed. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! From: Sky Mail Rowland I recently investigated using a Vertical Power system as the relay and speed controller for my elevator trim servo with stick top switches, with some advice from Tony Kay. In brief, Tony spoke to Andy Draper who confirmed that, due to the critical nature of the trim on an all-moving tailplane such as the Europa, the LAA wouldn't sanction any electronic controller/device in the trim circuit between the trim switch and the servo, in case of failure. I believe the RAC relay deck is ok because it switches the power but doesn't try to electronically control it. On that basis, would this unit be permitted - I'm not sure where it goes in the circuit? Richard CC > Its primary function is to allow for the trim servo speed to be adjusted - I understand some folk have found the natural speed of the servo too high for their liking - but as bonus you can add as many extra trim switches as you want. (eg one on the panel and one on each stick-top.) I have fitted one to my trim circuit and in my tests so far (not yet flying) I find it is entirely satisfactory. In the picture of my panel (I posted a link to it yesterday) the small hole at bottom left adjacent to the trim switch is for screwdriver adjustment of the trim speed. > > in friendship > > Rowland > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! From: houlihan Hi Richard. I have a Matronics governor fitted in my Europa , its been flying for 12 years now, The governor was fitted prior to first flight and I provided the documentation to the then PFA to support the fitting of this unit. Frances Donaldson then approved its fitting subject to a report from the pilot who carried out the test schedule stating that the position of the trim switch did not cause problems, I recall Frances asking why I wanted to fit this device and my answer that A, I wanted speed control and B, I wished to mount the second switch so that it was fore and aft so that pushing forward caused nose down etc , must have been acceptable and it was then formally permitted. I wonder what has changed in the meantime, though in general I agree that simple is usually best and if if something is not fitted it will not fail in the future so if you don't need it don't fit it and that is usually also the lighter option.. regards Tim G-BZTH On 12 June 2014 10:44, Sky Mail wrote: > richard.churchill-coleman@sky.com> > > Rowland > > I recently investigated using a Vertical Power system as the relay and > speed controller for my elevator trim servo with stick top switches, with > some advice from Tony Kay. In brief, Tony spoke to Andy Draper who > confirmed that, due to the critical nature of the trim on an all-moving > tailplane such as the Europa, the LAA wouldn't sanction any electronic > controller/device in the trim circuit between the trim switch and the > servo, in case of failure. I believe the RAC relay deck is ok because it > switches the power but doesn't try to electronically control it. > > On that basis, would this unit be permitted - I'm not sure where it goes > in the circuit? > > Richard CC > > > Its primary function is to allow for the trim servo speed to be adjusted > - I understand some folk have found the natural speed of the servo too high > for their liking - but as bonus you can add as many extra trim switches as > you want. (eg one on the panel and one on each stick-top.) I have fitted > one to my trim circuit and in my tests so far (not yet flying) I find it is > entirely satisfactory. In the picture of my panel (I posted a link to it > yesterday) the small hole at bottom left adjacent to the trim switch is for > screwdriver adjustment of the trim speed. > > > > in friendship > > > > Rowland > > > > | Rowland Carson > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! From: Sky Mail Tim Thanks for that info - it may of course be the case that LAA/PFA have a logi c for accepting the Matronics unit (grandfather rights or long fault free op erational history) or that it doesn't present the same risk as the VP unit f or technical reasons. I'd like to raise the query with Andy but I'm slightly concerned that instea d of getting approval for my VP unit, I get approval revoked for Matronics u nits? I'll talk to Tony Kay and ponder..... Richard Sent from my iPad > On 12 Jun 2014, at 11:22, houlihan wrote: > > Hi Richard. > > I have a Matronics governor fitted in my Europa , its been flying for 12 y ears now, The governor was fitted prior to first flight and I provided the d ocumentation to the then PFA to support the fitting of this unit. Frances Do naldson then approved its fitting subject to a report from the pilot who car ried out the test schedule stating that the position of the trim switch did n ot cause problems, I recall Frances asking why I wanted to fit this device a nd my answer that A, I wanted speed control and B, I wished to mount the se cond switch so that it was fore and aft so that pushing forward caused nose d own etc , must have been acceptable and it was then formally permitted. > > I wonder what has changed in the meantime, though in general I agree that s imple is usually best and if if something is not fitted it will not fail in t he future so if you don't need it don't fit it and that is usually also the l ighter option.. > > regards > > Tim > G-BZTH > > > >> On 12 June 2014 10:44, Sky Mail wrote : y.com> >> >> Rowland >> >> I recently investigated using a Vertical Power system as the relay and sp eed controller for my elevator trim servo with stick top switches, with some advice from Tony Kay. In brief, Tony spoke to Andy Draper who confirmed th at, due to the critical nature of the trim on an all-moving tailplane such a s the Europa, the LAA wouldn't sanction any electronic controller/device in t he trim circuit between the trim switch and the servo, in case of failure. I believe the RAC relay deck is ok because it switches the power but doesn't t ry to electronically control it. >> >> On that basis, would this unit be permitted - I'm not sure where it goes i n the circuit? >> >> Richard CC >> >> > Its primary function is to allow for the trim servo speed to be adjuste d - I understand some folk have found the natural speed of the servo too hig h for their liking - but as bonus you can add as many extra trim switches as you want. (eg one on the panel and one on each stick-top.) I have fitted on e to my trim circuit and in my tests so far (not yet flying) I find it is en tirely satisfactory. In the picture of my panel (I posted a link to it yeste rday) the small hole at bottom left adjacent to the trim switch is for screw driver adjustment of the trim speed. >> > >> > in friendship >> > >> > Rowland >> > >> > | Rowland Carson >> >> >> ========== >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ========== >> MS - >> k">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> e - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:28 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! Hi Tim. I too have a Matronics controller, and was thinking of having it in " fast" mode, with a conventional mode being bypassed with a switch. I've been told that you really want it a tad faster in the pattern, so this would req uire activating the controller on pattern entry with a default being if it f ailed, you would have the normal trim rate. Do you see a problem with this i dea as a flier? Regards Tony Renshaw Sent from my iPad > On 12 Jun 2014, at 7:22 pm, houlihan wrote: > > Hi Richard. > > I have a Matronics governor fitted in my Europa , its been flying for 12 y ears now, The governor was fitted prior to first flight and I provided the d ocumentation to the then PFA to support the fitting of this unit. Frances Do naldson then approved its fitting subject to a report from the pilot who car ried out the test schedule stating that the position of the trim switch did n ot cause problems, I recall Frances asking why I wanted to fit this device a nd my answer that A, I wanted speed control and B, I wished to mount the se cond switch so that it was fore and aft so that pushing forward caused nose d own etc , must have been acceptable and it was then formally permitted. > > I wonder what has changed in the meantime, though in general I agree that s imple is usually best and if if something is not fitted it will not fail in t he future so if you don't need it don't fit it and that is usually also the l ighter option.. > > regards > > Tim > G-BZTH > > > >> On 12 June 2014 10:44, Sky Mail wrote : y.com> >> >> Rowland >> >> I recently investigated using a Vertical Power system as the relay and sp eed controller for my elevator trim servo with stick top switches, with some advice from Tony Kay. In brief, Tony spoke to Andy Draper who confirmed th at, due to the critical nature of the trim on an all-moving tailplane such a s the Europa, the LAA wouldn't sanction any electronic controller/device in t he trim circuit between the trim switch and the servo, in case of failure. I believe the RAC relay deck is ok because it switches the power but doesn't t ry to electronically control it. >> >> On that basis, would this unit be permitted - I'm not sure where it goes i n the circuit? >> >> Richard CC >> >> > Its primary function is to allow for the trim servo speed to be adjuste d - I understand some folk have found the natural speed of the servo too hig h for their liking - but as bonus you can add as many extra trim switches as you want. (eg one on the panel and one on each stick-top.) I have fitted on e to my trim circuit and in my tests so far (not yet flying) I find it is en tirely satisfactory. In the picture of my panel (I posted a link to it yeste rday) the small hole at bottom left adjacent to the trim switch is for screw driver adjustment of the trim speed. >> > >> > in friendship >> > >> > Rowland >> > >> > | Rowland Carson >> >> >> ========== >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ========== >> MS - >> k">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> e - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.