---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/13/14: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:05 AM - Re: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! (Tony Renshaw) 2. 03:59 AM - Re: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! (Ivor Phillips) 3. 04:43 PM - Flap Actuator Load Calcs.....how do I do it?? (Tony Renshaw) 4. 10:25 PM - LAA Night / IFR Trials (Sky Mail) 5. 11:09 PM - Re: Re: Clevice \Forks debacle......... (Tony Renshaw) 6. 11:30 PM - Re: LAA Night / IFR Trials (spcialeffects) 7. 11:50 PM - Araldit 420 (Redux) (Klaus Dietrich) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! From: Tony Renshaw Hi Rowland, Is what I understand that with the Matronics, you can use the original switch, plus stick trims? I think to be able to vary it inflight, or to have a cruise trim and a circuit trim would be nice. One way would be to use the controller, or bypass it, but if you bypassed it, you would need the relay again? I need to check if there is only one suitable relay. Seems to me I will need a relay if I want to persist with a two speed trim setup. I need more input from current flyers please. Anyone? Regards Tony Renshaw Sent from my iPad > On 12 Jun 2014, at 6:23 pm, Rowland Carson wrote: > > > Further to all the talk of relay decks, there is another way to allow more than 1 trim switch, available from the proprietor of this forum, Matt Dralle, in the form of The Governor - here's a link to it: > > http://www.matronics.com/governor/ > > Its primary function is to allow for the trim servo speed to be adjusted - I understand some folk have found the natural speed of the servo too high for their liking - but as bonus you can add as many extra trim switches as you want. (eg one on the panel and one on each stick-top.) I have fitted one to my trim circuit and in my tests so far (not yet flying) I find it is entirely satisfactory. In the picture of my panel (I posted a link to it yesterday) the small hole at bottom left adjacent to the trim switch is for screwdriver adjustment of the trim speed. > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:25 AM PST US From: Ivor Phillips Subject: Re: Europa-List: multiple trim switches solution is not always a relay deck! I have the the matronics governor and personally I found it too quick in flight, it was easy to overshoot then undershoot, so I turned down the governor a notch or two and found it works well, in the circuit isn't a problem with the Ray Allen stick grips as you are trimming away as you are doing other important tasks at the same time, and who said men couldn't multi task :-) Sent from my iPad > On 13 Jun 2014, at 08:07, Tony Renshaw wrote: > > > Hi Rowland, > Is what I understand that with the Matronics, you can use the original switch, plus stick trims? I think to be able to vary it inflight, or to have a cruise trim and a circuit trim would be nice. One way would be to use the controller, or bypass it, but if you bypassed it, you would need the relay again? I need to check if there is only one suitable relay. Seems to me I will need a relay if I want to persist with a two speed trim setup. I need more input from current flyers please. Anyone? > Regards Tony Renshaw > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 12 Jun 2014, at 6:23 pm, Rowland Carson wrote: >> >> >> Further to all the talk of relay decks, there is another way to allow more than 1 trim switch, available from the proprietor of this forum, Matt Dralle, in the form of The Governor - here's a link to it: >> >> http://www.matronics.com/governor/ >> >> Its primary function is to allow for the trim servo speed to be adjusted - I understand some folk have found the natural speed of the servo too high for their liking - but as bonus you can add as many extra trim switches as you want. (eg one on the panel and one on each stick-top.) I have fitted one to my trim circuit and in my tests so far (not yet flying) I find it is entirely satisfactory. In the picture of my panel (I posted a link to it yesterday) the small hole at bottom left adjacent to the trim switch is for screwdriver adjustment of the trim speed. >> >> in friendship >> >> Rowland >> >> | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... >> | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk >> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson >> | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:04 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Flap Actuator Load Calcs.....how do I do it?? From: Tony Renshaw Gidday My electric flap actuator can take a 110 lb dynamic load, and a 500 lb static load. I want to know how to work out the dynamic load on the flap at max flap limit speed. If I can work out the area of my flaps, and know the full flap deflection angle, and limit speed, does anyone know how to calculate the force to drive the flaps to their extended position? Thanks Tony Renshaw Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:26 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: LAA Night / IFR Trials From: Sky Mail Hi UK Forumites I see that the LAA have just announced the start of night and IFR trials for PtoF aircraft and included the Europa in the list of trial aircraft. I assume the factory will be as absent as ever from Europa developments so does anyone know whose aircraft will be involved and what form these trials will take? Richard CC Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:52 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Clevice \Forks debacle......... Hi Bud, Reviewing my emails I noticed your thorough input below to my trim question. I posted recently, some time later, my conclusions, which aerodynamically I will vouch for, but, it is contrary to what you recommended. The manual omi ts to tell you the orientation of the rivet pattern, which has been the root of my dilemma. My components conflict because of the rivet head, which is a real irritation. I often build too fine tolerances, which is probably a com mon perfectionist trait, but it commonly creates problems, like this one. I am chasing around trying to get all the pitch circuit sorted, with the top o n and off trying to get the counterweight throw sorted too, so that the tail plane hits the bump stops before physical stops. As I did it years ago, I am relearning everything including soldering and fine wire connections for the RC Allen servo and position gauge. I would like to know what form of connec tor you recommend on the fine wires of the poaition indicator? I could solde r on a D-Sub fitting but would prefer a Fast-On crimp but they dont seem to s uit below a #22 AWG wire. I also have to get the indicator's connector throu gh the panel hole, because as i recall it is slid into the hole and rests in place with a surrounding flange. I am in Tokyo, so cant check at the moment , but the implication is that my connector needs to go through the hole, and the wires are not that long out if the position indicator to not get it rig ht the first, or at a pinch, the second time. Seems my cranked control sticks with my Tosten grips are going to give me gr ief too, as they sit ontop if the stick, through a 1" insert, so the sticks h ave been cut down as much as possible but still conflict with my panel. I mi ght have to cut and weld in an insert in the middle portion of the stick. It currently doesnt seem to come back far enough at full aft stick, as its onl y mid thigh. I reckon it should come back till my left elbow is against the s eat back would be a good geometry test, so I need to get it back more. I hav e a fence arrangement around the bottom of my sticks, to attach a leather bo ot, and stop FOD jamming the controls, but it now makes iy very awkward for m e to get in there to try and lengthen the link rod, to crank back the entire range. So, still a work in progress, but I was told to work from the back f orward, which is why I'm messing around with trim units. So Bud, if you've g ot any tips about small wire connectors, i'll soak it up with thanks. Regards Tony Renshaw > On 24 May 2014, at 12:03, Bud Yerly wrote: > > Tony, > In Annex E it says: > Check that trim bellcrank does not contact TS05 push-rod when fully aft (t ab full up) and tailplane is > > trailing edge up. > > This should be in Chapter 19 also but is not as it is assumed when checkin g clearances. > > If I read you correctly, I am just repeating what others have said I am af raid. With the stab full up and trim rod full down, the TS05, T shaped trim push rod, should not contact the TS 03 bell crank long arm side where the t rim clevises attach at full up stab (I use 13 degrees full up). The clevis f rom the motor to the clevis on the TS03 butt against one another on the #8 r od attaching them. If you look with the stabs all done, trim tabs on, and f ully extended trim motor, look hard at the TS05 trim rod and it normally jus t contacts the clevis. Simply take it apart,(it is an airplane so if you ha ven't taken it apart and put it together 5 times, you are doing it wrong.) c ut 1/16 inch from each clevis and reassemble and test. 1/8 inch off each is the most I have done. At this time check the TS05 trim push rod does not r ub against the slot in the bulkhead it passes through. This is very hard to do with the top on. > > Nice to catch it now with the top off rather than go in and try to do it a fter the top is on, especially with the inspection hole size recommended by t he manual. > > Now something not in the manual and is very embarrassing: > I found one of my aircraft with the nyloc nut which holds the TS03 to the T S04 (spring and washer thingy) and its check nut were loose. As the damper u nit moves, it vibrated a bit and to my distress, the TS04 was a bit floppy. This has never happened to me. Easy fix, a drop of Loctite and tighten up w as all it took. I use torque seal paint on all my bolts but never put it on my nylock / check nut on the drag / dampener bolt as I never thought this p art would cause trouble... So a word to the wise, make this part of your fi nal assembly check, and put a bit of torque seal paint on your nuts on this p art also. > > As far as mounting the trim servo, we do add an aluminum plate of .016 inc hes with 4 nut plates riveted on to it and the plate Reduxed and riveted to t he back side of the bulkhead. We use nut plates everywhere where we can't g et to a nut easily. (Yes, it takes longer but we have not had good luck wit h gluing a nut on over time.) We also use a #6 Allen head screw to hold the t rim motor on since it is easier to put an Allen screw driver ball head on it than a wrench should the trim motor need to be changed some time in the way distant future. (I've never had a Mac Servo fail, but I have a D sub on i t anyway, just in case.) > > Enjoy Building > Bud > > > > > > > From: tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Clevice \Forks debacle......... > Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 08:02:24 +1000 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Hi Bud, > Could you please elaborate where the fouling is more specifically? I appre ciate knowing this, so I am thankful Bob brought it up. I have the top still off so its ideal I overcome these issues now. > Regards > Tony Renshaw > > > > On 23 May 2014, at 7:40, "Bud Yerly" wrote: > > Bob, > You are right on the money. Every aircraft I have built needed about 1/8 o ff each clevis on the pitch mechanism to allow the trim bar to clear at full elevator and trim travel. As for interpreting the English Language.... No c omment. > Regards, > Bud Yerly > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Klein > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:30 AM > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Clevice \Forks debacle......... > > Bobthank you for your attention to my build photo and for alertin g me to this issue, however vexing you may find it. > > I am simply baffled to learn that you find =9Cthere is already enoug h shit flying about on the issue=9D and that it=99s an exampl e showing that =9Cpeople just can=99t read and interpret the Eng lish language=9Dplease do not attempt to elaborateI c an do without further discussion which you find unsuitable for posting on Ma tronics. > > Fred > > > On May 22, 2014, at 2:19 AM, Bob Harrison wrote: > > Hi! Tony /Fred. > To try to help you over this vexed issue concerning the clevis forks I jus t spoke to a local friend on the issue ....his immediate response was that h e had removed =C2=BC=9D but when I questioned him further he started t o apply some engineering reason to the issue and suggested that we probably b oth removed 1/8=9D from each clevice to ensure there was adequate thre ad purchase left on both clevices. Which is the principle I would apply , th e only thing better is to remove it from one and check the operational clear ance as to whether it is necessary to do the other too. > I=99m not publishing this on the Matronics site since there is alrea dy enough shit flying about on the issue , people just can=99t read an d interpret the English language ! > Regards > Bob H > > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > a-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > //forums.matronics.com > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > ========== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:30 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: LAA Night / IFR Trials From: "spcialeffects" I second that, who's the lucky guinea pig? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424817#424817 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:01 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Araldit 420 (Redux) From: Klaus Dietrich I need to re-fix my tail wheel spring and would need some Redux 420. Does anybody know where I can buy it, for fast delivery to Austria? Thanks, Klaus (OE-CKD, Mono-wheel, Classic 912) Klaus A. 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