---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/23/14: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:35 AM - Re: Noncontact fuel level indicator (Robert Borger) 2. 06:37 AM - Re: Noncontact fuel level indicator (Andrew Sarangan) 3. 06:53 AM - Re: Noncontact fuel level indicator (Peter Zutrauen) 4. 09:52 AM - Re: Noncontact fuel level indicator (Tony Renshaw) 5. 10:17 AM - Re: G-PUPY takes to the sky (graeme bird) 6. 10:18 AM - Re: Noncontact fuel level indicator (Richard Wheelwright) 7. 11:00 AM - Re: G-PUPY takes to the sky (fraser221) 8. 11:08 AM - Re: Re: G-PUPY takes to the sky (Donald Cameron) 9. 11:21 AM - Re: Icom, pilot intercom & Smartass (roddyeuropa@aol.com) 10. 06:17 PM - Re: Noncontact fuel level indicator (Andrew Sarangan) 11. 11:16 PM - Re: G-PUPY takes to the sky (goff) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator From: Robert Borger Andrew, It is one fantastic idea! Question: Since you are looking at diffused/scattered light not transmitted light, does it require 2 boards or could the whole thing be done with a single board? LEDs down the left side & detectors down the right. Perhaps a light barrier between the emitters & detectors. Less wiring complication that way? Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jun 22, 2014, at 9:12 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: Regarding the fuel indicator, I made a brief video to show how it works. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zagLfErDOQI On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > > Andrew, since you are writing code you might like to incorporate compensation tables for the shape of the tank so you get a linear scale. > > The system I have is a variant of Tony K's that weights the fuel with a 0 ~ 1" pressure transducer. The fuel sloshing and tank shape compensation is done with a PIC Micro. It has worked flawlessly for 10 years. > > Cheers, Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 9:03 AM > To: Europa List > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator > > I will take some photos and write up some details in a few days. > > The idea was based on what I accidentally observed one day when holding a flash light to the fuel tank. When the flash light is held below the fuel level, the entire fluid lights up. When the flash light is above the level, the tank lights up. The contrast across the fluid level is about 10x. This is due to light being trapped above or below the level. See attached pictures. > > So, I made a board with four LEDs in a column, and another board with > 10 photodetectors in a column. Using a microcontroller, I am flashing each LED in sequence, and then computing the liquid level based on the measured contrast. The output is displayed on a 10-bar display. The LED board will attach to the aft of the baggage bay bulkhead, with four holes to allow the light to get through. The detector board has to attach somewhere on the front side of the tank. This might be the tricky part because I need to make sure it is secure, but also removable and does not interfere with the controls. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:12 AM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator Bob That is a good suggestion. I considered that option as well but didn't pursue it. I could not figure out a way to cleanly separate the reflected scatter off the tank faces from overwhelming the detectors. Perhaps a strip of foam barrier might work. On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 7:34 AM, Robert Borger wrote: > > Andrew, > > It is one fantastic idea! > > Question: Since you are looking at diffused/scattered light not transmitted light, does it require 2 boards or could the whole thing be done with a single board? LEDs down the left side & detectors down the right. Perhaps a light barrier between the emitters & detectors. Less wiring complication that way? > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs). > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger@mac.com > > > On Jun 22, 2014, at 9:12 PM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > > Regarding the fuel indicator, I made a brief video to show how it > works. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zagLfErDOQI > > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Paul McAllister > wrote: >> >> Andrew, since you are writing code you might like to incorporate compensation tables for the shape of the tank so you get a linear scale. >> >> The system I have is a variant of Tony K's that weights the fuel with a 0 ~ 1" pressure transducer. The fuel sloshing and tank shape compensation is done with a PIC Micro. It has worked flawlessly for 10 years. >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan >> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 9:03 AM >> To: Europa List >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator >> >> I will take some photos and write up some details in a few days. >> >> The idea was based on what I accidentally observed one day when holding a flash light to the fuel tank. When the flash light is held below the fuel level, the entire fluid lights up. When the flash light is above the level, the tank lights up. The contrast across the fluid level is about 10x. This is due to light being trapped above or below the level. See attached pictures. >> >> So, I made a board with four LEDs in a column, and another board with >> 10 photodetectors in a column. Using a microcontroller, I am flashing each LED in sequence, and then computing the liquid level based on the measured contrast. The output is displayed on a 10-bar display. The LED board will attach to the aft of the baggage bay bulkhead, with four holes to allow the light to get through. The detector board has to attach somewhere on the front side of the tank. This might be the tricky part because I need to make sure it is secure, but also removable and does not interfere with the controls. > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:54 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator I would assume that you would lose some of the contrast performance due to light being "conducted" through the tank material itself, regardless of barrier? Cheers, Pete On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > Bob > > That is a good suggestion. I considered that option as well but didn't > pursue it. I could not figure out a way to cleanly separate the > reflected scatter off the tank faces from overwhelming the detectors. > Perhaps a strip of foam barrier might work. > > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 7:34 AM, Robert Borger wrote: > > > > Andrew, > > > > It is one fantastic idea! > > > > Question: Since you are looking at diffused/scattered light not > transmitted light, does it require 2 boards or could the whole thing be > done with a single board? LED=99s down the left side & detectors d own the > right. Perhaps a light barrier between the emitters & detectors. Less > wiring complication that way? > > > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > > Bob Borger > > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs). > > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > > Cel: 817-992-1117 > > rlborger@mac.com > > > > > > On Jun 22, 2014, at 9:12 PM, Andrew Sarangan > wrote: > > > > > > > Regarding the fuel indicator, I made a brief video to show how it > > works. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zagLfErDOQI > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Paul McAllister > > wrote: > paul.the.aviator@gmail.com> > >> > >> Andrew, since you are writing code you might like to incorporate > compensation tables for the shape of the tank so you get a linear scale. > >> > >> The system I have is a variant of Tony K's that weights the fuel with a > 0 ~ 1" pressure transducer. The fuel sloshing and tank shape compensation > is done with a PIC Micro. It has worked flawlessly for 10 years. > >> > >> Cheers, Paul > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 9:03 AM > >> To: Europa List > >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator > >> > >> I will take some photos and write up some details in a few days. > >> > >> The idea was based on what I accidentally observed one day when holdin g > a flash light to the fuel tank. When the flash light is held below the fu el > level, the entire fluid lights up. When the flash light is above the leve l, > the tank lights up. The contrast across the fluid level is about 10x. Thi s > is due to light being trapped above or below the level. See attached > pictures. > >> > >> So, I made a board with four LEDs in a column, and another board with > >> 10 photodetectors in a column. Using a microcontroller, I am flashing > each LED in sequence, and then computing the liquid level based on the > measured contrast. The output is displayed on a 10-bar display. The LED > board will attach to the aft of the baggage bay bulkhead, with four holes > to allow the light to get through. The detector board has to attach > somewhere on the front side of the tank. This might be the tricky part > because I need to make sure it is secure, but also removable and does not > interfere with the controls. > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator From: Tony Renshaw Hi Andrew, Thanks for the YouTube video. Youve got what appears to be a solid prototype. Im just wondering how easily the strip of LEDs can be installed if the tank has already been put in, if in fact it can? Regards Tony Renshaw On 22 Jun 2014, at 7:12 pm, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > Regarding the fuel indicator, I made a brief video to show how it > works. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zagLfErDOQI > > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Paul McAllister > wrote: >> >> Andrew, since you are writing code you might like to incorporate compensation tables for the shape of the tank so you get a linear scale. >> >> The system I have is a variant of Tony K's that weights the fuel with a 0 ~ 1" pressure transducer. The fuel sloshing and tank shape compensation is done with a PIC Micro. It has worked flawlessly for 10 years. >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan >> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 9:03 AM >> To: Europa List >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator >> >> I will take some photos and write up some details in a few days. >> >> The idea was based on what I accidentally observed one day when holding a flash light to the fuel tank. When the flash light is held below the fuel level, the entire fluid lights up. When the flash light is above the level, the tank lights up. The contrast across the fluid level is about 10x. This is due to light being trapped above or below the level. See attached pictures. >> >> So, I made a board with four LEDs in a column, and another board with >> 10 photodetectors in a column. Using a microcontroller, I am flashing each LED in sequence, and then computing the liquid level based on the measured contrast. The output is displayed on a 10-bar display. The LED board will attach to the aft of the baggage bay bulkhead, with four holes to allow the light to get through. The detector board has to attach somewhere on the front side of the tank. This might be the tricky part because I need to make sure it is secure, but also removable and does not interfere with the controls. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:31 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: G-PUPY takes to the sky From: "graeme bird" Well done. A great feeling and what a great place to fly from. Enjoy. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 105 hours 26 months on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425331#425331 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator From: Richard Wheelwright Just a couple of things to consider ?? The tank will yellow with age will this effect the light? The tank will also change shape (bulge) the surface you are fitting the circuit boards too will mole her be flat. Will this also cause a problem? Just thinking out loud!!! Regards Richard > On 23 Jun 2014, at 17:52, Tony Renshaw wrote: > > > Hi Andrew, > Thanks for the YouTube video. Youve got what appears to be a solid prototype. Im just wondering how easily the strip of LEDs can be installed if the tank has already been put in, if in fact it can? > Regards > Tony Renshaw > >> On 22 Jun 2014, at 7:12 pm, Andrew Sarangan wrote: >> >> >> Regarding the fuel indicator, I made a brief video to show how it >> works. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zagLfErDOQI >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Paul McAllister >> wrote: >>> >>> Andrew, since you are writing code you might like to incorporate compensation tables for the shape of the tank so you get a linear scale. >>> >>> The system I have is a variant of Tony K's that weights the fuel with a 0 ~ 1" pressure transducer. The fuel sloshing and tank shape compensation is done with a PIC Micro. It has worked flawlessly for 10 years. >>> >>> Cheers, Paul >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 9:03 AM >>> To: Europa List >>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator >>> >>> I will take some photos and write up some details in a few days. >>> >>> The idea was based on what I accidentally observed one day when holding a flash light to the fuel tank. When the flash light is held below the fuel level, the entire fluid lights up. When the flash light is above the level, the tank lights up. The contrast across the fluid level is about 10x. This is due to light being trapped above or below the level. See attached pictures. >>> >>> So, I made a board with four LEDs in a column, and another board with >>> 10 photodetectors in a column. Using a microcontroller, I am flashing each LED in sequence, and then computing the liquid level based on the measured contrast. The output is displayed on a 10-bar display. The LED board will attach to the aft of the baggage bay bulkhead, with four holes to allow the light to get through. The detector board has to attach somewhere on the front side of the tank. This might be the tricky part because I need to make sure it is secure, but also removable and does not interfere with the controls. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:46 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: G-PUPY takes to the sky From: "fraser221" Well done Donald, very impressive progress with G-PUPY. Hope to see the finished article one day. best regards Vic Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425334#425334 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: G-PUPY takes to the sky From: Donald Cameron Hi Vic Thanks for that, its come a long way since I bought the kit from yourself. I will hopefully get a flight up to visit you soon and show you the completed aircraft. All the required test flying has been finished today so paperwork hopefully be back in the post to the LAA tomorrow. Hopefully they wont have any issues with the test results and my permit will get issued very soon. Kind regards Donald Sent from my iPhone On 23 Jun 2014, at 18:59, "fraser221" wrote: > > Well done Donald, > very impressive progress with G-PUPY. > Hope to see the finished article one day. > > best regards > > Vic > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425334#425334 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Icom, pilot intercom & Smartass From: roddyeuropa@aol.com I have recently fitted a small audio mixer which takes up to six inputs and then feeds them into the intercom. The one I used is: http://www.fdatasystems.com/ap-60-audio-mixer Seems to work fine - I'm it using to mix radio and autopilot audio warning inputs, and plan to add a smartass when it comes available. Roddy Kesterton G-IKRK -----Original Message----- From: David Joyce Sent: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 19:40 Subject: Europa-List: Icom, pilot intercom & Smartass > Please forgive this off Europa request, but with another hat on I have been deeply involved with the UK schools build a plane project, in which 6 schools are at different stages of building a Rans Coyote. No radio or intercom were provided but a solution of an Icom A22 plus a Pilot PA200 IK intercom was settled on. Following 3 recent Coyote fatal stall spin accidents the powers that be have decided that a SmartASS would be a good addition. The problem is that the Pilot intercom has no auxilliary audio input feature to link the Smartass to. Has anyone by any chance come across this problem and devised a solution? Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:07 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator Good questions. Yellowing of the tank might affect the performance, but as long as it is still transparent I believe it should work. The yellow might also mean that it is more optically transparent in the infrared. Bulging tank will be a problem. I can't think of a solution for that. A flexible circuit board might be an option. Regarding installation after the tank has been put in, I don't see why not. One board can be mounted on the baggage bay bulkhead with a few drilled holes to allow the light through, and the other board would need access to the front of the tank, which should be accessible through the bottom access panel. I plan on attaching the board to the fuel tank with a few fiberglass brackets glued to the tank. On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Richard Wheelwright wrote: > > Just a couple of things to consider ?? > The tank will yellow with age will this effect the light? > The tank will also change shape (bulge) the surface you are fitting the circuit boards too will mole her be flat. Will this also cause a problem? > > Just thinking out loud!!! > > Regards > > Richard > >> On 23 Jun 2014, at 17:52, Tony Renshaw wrote: >> >> >> Hi Andrew, >> Thanks for the YouTube video. Youve got what appears to be a solid prototype. Im just wondering how easily the strip of LEDs can be installed if the tank has already been put in, if in fact it can? >> Regards >> Tony Renshaw >> >>> On 22 Jun 2014, at 7:12 pm, Andrew Sarangan wrote: >>> >>> >>> Regarding the fuel indicator, I made a brief video to show how it >>> works. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zagLfErDOQI >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Paul McAllister >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Andrew, since you are writing code you might like to incorporate compensation tables for the shape of the tank so you get a linear scale. >>>> >>>> The system I have is a variant of Tony K's that weights the fuel with a 0 ~ 1" pressure transducer. The fuel sloshing and tank shape compensation is done with a PIC Micro. It has worked flawlessly for 10 years. >>>> >>>> Cheers, Paul >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sarangan >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 9:03 AM >>>> To: Europa List >>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Noncontact fuel level indicator >>>> >>>> I will take some photos and write up some details in a few days. >>>> >>>> The idea was based on what I accidentally observed one day when holding a flash light to the fuel tank. When the flash light is held below the fuel level, the entire fluid lights up. When the flash light is above the level, the tank lights up. The contrast across the fluid level is about 10x. This is due to light being trapped above or below the level. See attached pictures. >>>> >>>> So, I made a board with four LEDs in a column, and another board with >>>> 10 photodetectors in a column. Using a microcontroller, I am flashing each LED in sequence, and then computing the liquid level based on the measured contrast. The output is displayed on a 10-bar display. The LED board will attach to the aft of the baggage bay bulkhead, with four holes to allow the light to get through. The detector board has to attach somewhere on the front side of the tank. This might be the tricky part because I need to make sure it is secure, but also removable and does not interfere with the controls. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:11 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: G-PUPY takes to the sky From: "goff" Well done Donald. And Oban looks it's usual stunning self. Good to meet you in April. 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