---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/01/14: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:07 AM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Max Cointe (Free)) 2. 02:01 AM - Re: DOOR detached during flight (John Wighton) 3. 04:04 AM - Re: DOOR detached during flight (Kevin Klinefelter) 4. 05:55 AM - Re: DOOR detached during flight (John Wighton) 5. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Robert Borger) 6. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Fred Klein) 7. 09:09 AM - Re: DOOR detached during flight (AirEupora) 8. 09:34 AM - Re: DOOR detached during flight (JonSmith) 9. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (William McClellan) 10. 10:36 AM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Jerry Rehn) 11. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 12. 03:03 PM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Kevin Klinefelter) 13. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Kevin Challis) 14. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Timward) 15. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Bud Yerly) 16. 07:34 PM - Re: My ailerons wont go down (William Daniell) 17. 09:41 PM - France Holidaying Suggestions (Tony Renshaw) 18. 11:01 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 19. 11:07 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:07 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe (Free)" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight We've been there too. Totally agree with Jon, it's mandatory to verify that the rear pin is really engaged. I push on front and rear side of both windows as last line of my pre take off check list. BTW this point has been addressed on this forum quite a bit ago and some builders have added detection switches linked to leds on their panel, a bit too much for me. Hope your window is manufactured in the UK (grey color) as our came from USA (dark color) and it was more expensive for travel than the price of the window itself and it took 6 weeks to get it... Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 520 hours F-PLDJ DynAro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1650 heures -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de JonSmith Envoy: lundi 30 juin 2014 22:47 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight --> Unfortunately this has happened a fair few times, indeed to a mate of mine just last year. What happens is that the (rear mounted) gas strut twists the door frame a little when it is open. Thus when the door is lowered to close it, it naturally wants to take up a position where the bottom edge of the door is slightly too far aft. This causes the rear edge of the door to remain outside of the door frame. Positioned thus, when you lock the door the front shoot bolt locates normally but the rear one locates itself OUTSIDE of the door frame. From inside the front of the door looks normal and the lock handle looks and feels normal too. Only by looking round behind you will you see that the rear edge of the door is out of position. Of course air pressure on the door in flight will then flex it slightly further rearwards and then it's game over (for the door). I find when I close the door from the inside, when it's fully lowered I apply a slight pressure forwards with a finger on the inside of the front edge of the door and that moves the bottom of the door frame forward slightly and you can literally hear and feel it pop into it's correct and fully fitted position. This has really become an instinctive movement for me. I also look at both ends of the door from the inside to ensure they are fully snug in position. After locking it I press outwards on both front and back of each door as a final check to ensure each end of the door is fully secure. Whilst you will never know for sure, my uneducated opinion is that there is very little load on a correctly closed door in flight and if both shoot bolts are correctly engaged the door cannot possible come open by accident. Good luck and best wishes for a speedy repair. -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425788#425788 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:01:24 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight From: "John Wighton" Sorry to hear about the door detachment. Steve Vestuti, builder of #573 (now G-IPOD) wisely added double DOORS check in the 'start up' and 'ready for departure' checklists. I follow this and double brief PAX about checking the doors before pulling the harness tight. I found that the doors warp when left open in hot weather, this can result in the aft pins needing some shuffling - as per Jon Smith's narrative. I re-stressed the hinges and pins having done some CFD work on the Europa, the pressure differential across this part of the fuselage is quite low but the doors are large, so the resulting suction is enough (obviously) to warp the door sufficient to disengage the remaining (fwd) pin. The RF (reserve factor) of the aft pins, when properly engaged is very high >>2. Conclusion is that the door design is sound, operators need a robust checklist regime including a thorough PAX brief. Regards JW -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425822#425822 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:00 AM PST US From: Kevin Klinefelter Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOOR detached during flight I used stainless steel hinges for the doors, as some other builders recommended. I suppose SS can take a bit more of the abuse we give them on the ground. But one has to wonder if that rear shoot bolt was really engaged. I wonder if this is the first instance of the door hitting the tail? Kevin > On Jun 30, 2014, at 12:07 PM, "g-fizy" wrote: > > > Sadly during the permit renewal test flight ,The P1 Door detached,Luckily no one was hert and G-fizy was landed safely . > It Was flown be the engineer and text pilot they had not started testing the aircraft ,and was in level flight when the door went as it did it impacted the elevator and to a large chunk out. > They say The doors Were both Closed correctly so we are not sure if the hinge at the front failed causing the door to detach ,they don't look very strong. > Has This Happened Before ? > > thats my flying done for a while :( :( :( > > -------- > owner g-fizy > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425780#425780 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171415_120.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171459_125.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171401_136.jpg > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:42 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight From: "John Wighton" The doors will fail irrespective of hinge material as the fasteners will pull through, shear or tear out. I have not been able to access the photos int he original post - anybody else have trouble? getting 404 errors. http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171415_120.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171459_125.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171401_136.jpg Regards John -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425827#425827 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight From: Robert Borger John, Agreed. You could use cast iron hinges and theyd just tear up the fiberglass when the door departed. One must absolutely, positively, make sure both bolt shoots are in place. I have a strap attached to the inside lower rear corner of my doors that allows me to pull that corner in when I latch the door. I had microswitches for a while but they tended to get out of adjustment and wear causing false warnings. The strap is much better at confirming the rear shoots are in place and the door properly latched. Same 404 error when I try to access the photos. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jul 1, 2014, at 7:54 AM, John Wighton wrote: The doors will fail irrespective of hinge material as the fasteners will pull through, shear or tear out. I have not been able to access the photos int he original post - anybody else have trouble? getting 404 errors. http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171415_120.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171459_125.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171401_136.jpg Regards John -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:27 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight Robert Borger wrote: > Agreed. You could use cast iron hinges and they=92d just tear up the fiberglass when the door departed. One must absolutely, positively, make sure both bolt shoots are in place. I have a strap attached to the inside lower rear corner of my doors that allows me to pull that corner in when I latch the door. I had microswitches for a while but they tended to get out of adjustment and wear causing false warnings. The strap is much better at confirming the rear shoots are in place and the door properly latched. That sounds like a good idea Bob=85 In my case, I added a tab of 1/8=94 Lastafoam w/ 2 layers BID, located per attached photo, on both doors. On the passenger side, I can reach the tab w/ my right arm extended behind the passenger=92s head; I did not want to rely upon my passenger to ensure that the rear shoot bolt was engaged. On the pilot=92s side, I cross my right arm over my chest to reach the tab. In both instances, I can both push out and pull inward, while engaging the latch as well as during final check list. I was particularly concerned before installation of the door glazing because the lower rear corner of the door remained a tad proud prior to engaging the shoot bolts; I was a bit relieved when that disappeared after the weight of the glazing was added to the door. Nonetheless, I=92m installing microswitches for the rear bolts and will look for two green LEDs on the panel before TO=85it=92s a simple enough installation, thanks to Raimo Toivio, and I have no reason to doubt that it will be trouble-free=85time will tell. Regarding the hinges, I believe they were intentionally designed as the weak link in order to prevent damage to the FG of the airframe in the event of loss of door. Fred ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:38 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight From: "AirEupora" I too had the door depart on my first flight in N141EW as an instructor. It took six months to get the parts from England.. The installation and painting took another month. I felt bad about my door coming off during flight. Took a helicopter up and looked around for the door, but never found it. No damage to the airframe. It is interesting that Dr. Johnson's doors are super easy to open and close, but my doors are hard. I took Bob's ideal and use a cord from the pilot's door to the PAX's door and pull on the cord before take off. I generally am able to see day light out the back if the door is not close. If I don't keep the doors close when not flying then I have trouble closing them before takeoff. I couple of times I've had to shut down the engine. get out and close the pilot's door from the outside. Then walk around and get in from the PAX's door. As big as I am that is a sight. Losing a door in flight makes a believer out of you. Double check the doors! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425849#425849 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:32 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight From: "JonSmith" Hi, just to clarify and expand on my previous comments and noting the very valid comments by John Wighton and others, the doors, even when closed can be semi permanently deformed by the continuous action of the gas strut (mine certainly has). This is generally limited to the flattish flange of the inboard rear top corner of the door which over time becomes curled up a little causing rather an unsightly gap at that corner. This deformation can be "reset" given time with ingenious use of weights/ straps/ pressure etc plus careful warming of the corner. (The gas strut repositioning mod addresses this problem and helps prevent it happening though I've not fitted it to mine). I don't think this is the cause of people failing to lock the door correctly though. The "twisting" I referred to is simply caused by the (quite flexible) door being twisted when it is open by the fact that it only has one gas strut fitted to one edge of the door. If it had two gas struts, one at the front and one at the rear it wouldn't twist - but think of the extra weight....! On mine, if I disconnect the gas strut the door lowers down completely straight and fits perfectly into the frame with no extra fiddling required. When I reconnect the gas strut then due to the induced twist, after I have lowered it I need to give the bottom of the door my previously mentioned gentle nudge forward to pop it fully into position (ie. to allow the rear edge of the door to move fully inwards and fully home). It's a bit like on my old estate car - one of the gas struts failed on the boot (trunk!) lid and the boot was a pig to shut because the one remaining (strong) gas strut twisted the thin boot lid so much it needed a huge sideways force to make it fit! Like John, I am completely convinced that the door design is very good and completely sound but that this is just one of those things that we all "need to know" and that we all religiously check that the front and especially the (harder to see!) rear of the door is correctly shut and in the correct position with the shoot bolts engaged. Someone mentioned about warning devices - it's a very personal thing but I prefer not to rely on bells and whistles which might let me down one day but rely on myself to visually check each time. I just pray that I don't let myself down one day! I guess an issue is, and this will always be a risk, where someone less familiar with the day to day operating of the plane flies it - classic example being the engineer as the original poster mentioned. As owners I suppose this will need to be one of many briefing points covered. -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425855#425855 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:03 AM PST US From: William McClellan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight Ted Gladstone developed a door strut mod that works very well. See picture. Kingsley Hurst modified it and did a write up on the mod. I modified it further and installed it on my plane and it works very well. It takes virtually all stress off the door corner. Further info is on forum some time back. I have Kingsley's write up but he probably still has the info. Obviously the bottom line solution, as has been stated, always check for complete door closure before flight. Bill McClellan -----Original Message----- >From: JonSmith >Sent: Jul 1, 2014 9:33 AM >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight > > >Hi, just to clarify and expand on my previous comments and noting the very valid comments by John Wighton and others, the doors, even when closed can be semi permanently deformed by the continuous action of the gas strut (mine certainly has). This is generally limited to the flattish flange of the inboard rear top corner of the door which over time becomes curled up a little causing rather an unsightly gap at that corner. This deformation can be "reset" given time with ingenious use of weights/ straps/ pressure etc plus careful warming of the corner. (The gas strut repositioning mod addresses this problem and helps prevent it happening though I've not fitted it to mine). > >I don't think this is the cause of people failing to lock the door correctly though. The "twisting" I referred to is simply caused by the (quite flexible) door being twisted when it is open by the fact that it only has one gas strut fitted to one edge of the door. If it had two gas struts, one at the front and one at the rear it wouldn't twist - but think of the extra weight....! On mine, if I disconnect the gas strut the door lowers down completely straight and fits perfectly into the frame with no extra fiddling required. When I reconnect the gas strut then due to the induced twist, after I have lowered it I need to give the bottom of the door my previously mentioned gentle nudge forward to pop it fully into position (ie. to allow the rear edge of the door to move fully inwards and fully home). It's a bit like on my old estate car - one of the gas struts failed on the boot (trunk!) lid and the boot was a pig to shut because the one remaining (strong) gas strut twisted ! > the thin boot lid so much it needed a huge sideways force to make it fit! >Like John, I am completely convinced that the door design is very good and completely sound but that this is just one of those things that we all "need to know" and that we all religiously check that the front and especially the (harder to see!) rear of the door is correctly shut and in the correct position with the shoot bolts engaged. Someone mentioned about warning devices - it's a very personal thing but I prefer not to rely on bells and whistles which might let me down one day but rely on myself to visually check each time. I just pray that I don't let myself down one day! >I guess an issue is, and this will always be a risk, where someone less familiar with the day to day operating of the plane flies it - classic example being the engineer as the original poster mentioned. As owners I suppose this will need to be one of many briefing points covered. > >-------- >G-TERN >Classic Mono > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425855#425855 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:58 AM PST US From: Jerry Rehn Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight It comes down to us and our check list. A couple of days ago my wife and I taxied out in warm weather, she opened her door to cool off and closed it before take off, I always check them at least 3 times, so I reached back and gave her door a push, whoops,it was not latched in back, a good reminder for us and why we check it. Pretty sure she will also be double checking now! Have check lists and use them. Regards Jerry Mono 914 Sent from my iPad > On Jul 1, 2014, at 9:33 AM, "JonSmith" wrote: > > > Hi, just to clarify and expand on my previous comments and noting the very valid comments by John Wighton and others, the doors, even when closed can be semi permanently deformed by the continuous action of the gas strut (mine certainly has). This is generally limited to the flattish flange of the inboard rear top corner of the door which over time becomes curled up a little causing rather an unsightly gap at that corner. This deformation can be "reset" given time with ingenious use of weights/ straps/ pressure etc plus careful warming of the corner. (The gas strut repositioning mod addresses this problem and helps prevent it happening though I've not fitted it to mine). > > I don't think this is the cause of people failing to lock the door correctly though. The "twisting" I referred to is simply caused by the (quite flexible) door being twisted when it is open by the fact that it only has one gas strut fitted to one edge of the door. If it had two gas struts, one at the front and one at the rear it wouldn't twist - but think of the extra weight....! On mine, if I disconnect the gas strut the door lowers down completely straight and fits perfectly into the frame with no extra fiddling required. When I reconnect the gas strut then due to the induced twist, after I have lowered it I need to give the bottom of the door my previously mentioned gentle nudge forward to pop it fully into position (ie. to allow the rear edge of the door to move fully inwards and fully home). It's a bit like on my old estate car - one of the gas struts failed on the boot (trunk!) lid and the boot was a pig to shut because the one remaining (strong) gas strut twisted ! > the thin boot lid so much it needed a huge sideways force to make it fit! > Like John, I am completely convinced that the door design is very good and completely sound but that this is just one of those things that we all "need to know" and that we all religiously check that the front and especially the (harder to see!) rear of the door is correctly shut and in the correct position with the shoot bolts engaged. Someone mentioned about warning devices - it's a very personal thing but I prefer not to rely on bells and whistles which might let me down one day but rely on myself to visually check each time. I just pray that I don't let myself down one day! > I guess an issue is, and this will always be a risk, where someone less familiar with the day to day operating of the plane flies it - classic example being the engineer as the original poster mentioned. As owners I suppose this will need to be one of many briefing points covered. > > -------- > G-TERN > Classic Mono > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425855#425855 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:42 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight This is the best answer, also fit Mal McLure's center latch which stops the bolts engaging unless=0Athe door is fully closed. It stops the door bowing out along the bottom rail in flight with the =0Aventilators fully open. It 's very neat and very simple.=0ABest to persuade Kingsley to describe it. H e has the original installed.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________ __________=0A From: William McClellan =0ATo: europa- list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 1 July 2014, 18:20=0ASubject: Re: Euro pa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight=0A =0A=0ATed Gladstone developed a door strut mod that works very well.- See picture.- Kingsley Hurst mod ified it and did a write up on the mod.- I modified it further and instal led it on my plane and it works very well.- It takes virtually all stress off the door corner.- Further info is on forum some time back.- I have Kingsley's write up but he probably still has the info.- Obviously the b ottom line solution, as has been stated, always check for complete door clo sure before flight.=0ABill McClellan=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0A>Fro m: JonSmith =0A>Sent: Jul 1, 2014 9:33 AM=0A> uropa@tiscali.co.uk>=0A>=0A>Hi, just to clarify and expand on my previous c omments and noting the very valid comments by John Wighton and others, the doors, even when closed can be semi permanently deformed by the continuous action of the gas strut (mine certainly has). This is generally limited to the flattish flange of the inboard rear top corner of the door which over t ime becomes curled up a little causing rather an unsightly gap at that corn er.- This deformation can be "reset" given time with ingenious use of wei ghts/ straps/ pressure etc plus careful warming of the corner.- (The gas strut repositioning mod addresses this problem and helps prevent it happeni ng though I've not fitted it to mine). =0A>=0A>I don't think this is the ca use of people failing to lock the door correctly though.- The "twisting" I referred to is simply caused by the (quite flexible) door being twisted w hen it is open by the fact that it only has one gas strut fitted to one edg e of the door.- If it had two gas struts, one at the front and one at the rear it wouldn't twist - but think of the extra weight....!- On mine, if I disconnect the gas strut the door lowers down completely straight and fi ts perfectly into the frame with no extra fiddling required. When I reconne ct the gas strut then due to the induced twist, after I have lowered it I n eed to give the bottom of the door my previously mentioned gentle nudge for ward to pop it fully into position (ie. to allow the rear edge of the door to move fully inwards and fully home).- It's a bit like on my old estate car - one of the gas struts failed on the boot (trunk!) lid and the boot wa s a pig to shut because the one remaining (strong) gas strut twisted =0A!=0A> the thin boot lid so much it needed a huge sideways force to make it fit!=0A>Like John, I am completely convinced that the door design is very good and completely sound but that this is ju st one of those things that we all "need to know" and that we all religious ly check that the front and especially the (harder to see!) rear of the doo r is correctly shut and in the correct position with the shoot bolts engage d.- Someone mentioned about warning devices - it's a very personal thing but I prefer not to rely on bells and whistles which might let me down one day but rely on myself to visually check each time. I just pray that I don' t let myself down one day!=0A>I guess an issue is, and this will always be a risk, where someone less familiar with the day to day operating of the pl ane flies it - classic example being the engineer as the original poster me ntioned.- As owners I suppose this will need to be one of many briefing p oints covered.=0A>=0A>--------=0A>G-TERN=0A>Classic Mono=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A >Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic. php?p=425855#425855=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:36 PM PST US From: Kevin Klinefelter Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight Absolutely. The original post regarding loss of door during flight asserted that the test pilot said the shoot bolts were engaged normally and it must have been the forward hinge that failed. I am assuming it was an aluminum hinge. I am not suggesting that SS hinges would keep your door on the airplane if the door ain't closed properly! Kevin > On Jul 1, 2014, at 7:54 AM, "John Wighton" wrote: > > > The doors will fail irrespective of hinge material as the fasteners will pull through, shear or tear out. > > I have not been able to access the photos int he original post - anybody else have trouble? > > getting 404 errors. > > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171415_120.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171459_125.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171401_136.jpg > > > Regards > John > > -------- > John Wighton > Europa XS trigear G-IPOD > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425827#425827 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight From: Kevin Challis The test pilot isn't going to say he didn't check the bolts were engaged he is going to say it was a failure else where. I don't have any micro switches etc I just lean back and give both doors a good push at the rear and then the front. If the bolts aren't engaged you can tell straight away. When converting to the Europa it was drummed into me how important this is. It's on my check list. Kevin > On 1 Jul 2014, at 23:02, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: > > > Absolutely. The original post regarding loss of door during flight asserted that the test pilot said the shoot bolts were engaged normally and it must have been the forward hinge that failed. I am assuming it was an aluminum hinge. > I am not suggesting that SS hinges would keep your door on the airplane if the door ain't closed properly! > > Kevin > > >> On Jul 1, 2014, at 7:54 AM, "John Wighton" wrote: >> >> >> The doors will fail irrespective of hinge material as the fasteners will pull through, shear or tear out. >> >> I have not been able to access the photos int he original post - anybody else have trouble? >> >> getting 404 errors. >> >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171415_120.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171459_125.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171401_136.jpg >> >> >> Regards >> John >> >> -------- >> John Wighton >> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425827#425827 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:38 PM PST US From: Timward Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight Doing my DOOR check before Take off I have a viewable red marker line on the back of each door that should be flush with the upholstery when closed. If not then reopen and push down on the back of the door to make sure the back bolt is secure. Never had a problem with the original strut although they are getting weaker. Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton, Christchurch, 8052 New Zealand. ward.t@xtra.co.nz Ph 64 3 3515166 Mob 0210640221 > On 2/07/2014, at 10:25 am, Kevin Challis wrote: > > > The test pilot isn't going to say he didn't check the bolts were engaged he is going to say it was a failure else where. > > I don't have any micro switches etc I just lean back and give both doors a good push at the rear and then the front. If the bolts aren't engaged you can tell straight away. When converting to the Europa it was drummed into me how important this is. > > It's on my check list. > > Kevin > > >> On 1 Jul 2014, at 23:02, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: >> >> >> Absolutely. The original post regarding loss of door during flight asserted that the test pilot said the shoot bolts were engaged normally and it must have been the forward hinge that failed. I am assuming it was an aluminum hinge. >> I am not suggesting that SS hinges would keep your door on the airplane if the door ain't closed properly! >> >> Kevin >> >> >>> On Jul 1, 2014, at 7:54 AM, "John Wighton" wrote: >>> >>> >>> The doors will fail irrespective of hinge material as the fasteners will pull through, shear or tear out. >>> >>> I have not been able to access the photos int he original post - anybody else have trouble? >>> >>> getting 404 errors. >>> >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171415_120.jpg >>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171459_125.jpg >>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171401_136.jpg >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> John >>> >>> -------- >>> John Wighton >>> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425827#425827 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight From: Bud Yerly As in previous posts=2C my doors close easily and are stock. I trust my doors=2C not myself or my pax or if flying with anyone else or h aving someone help me by latching the pax door for me. Reach over and push the door firmly while looking at it. When you close it and before takeoff. CHECKLIST CHECKLIST The only door my clients or I have lost was posted in this string to a new second hand owner. I spend time teaching clients=2C prospects and passenge rs how to close the door and how to jettison it in an emergency and ground egress. It's a review for me as my discipline goes to pot when I get lazy on a nice sunny day. Of course I took off with the prop in cruise. ( It's in my checklist. ) Discipline may not be. The mind is a terrible thing. LOOK WHILE YOU PUSH ON THE DOOR! Regards Bud Yerly. PS. Europa's molds and plug for the starboard door was trashed so a new m old had to be made. Takes a while. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Timward wrote: Doing my DOOR check before Take off I have a viewable red marker line on th e back of each door that should be flush with the upholstery when closed. I f not then reopen and push down on the back of the door to make sure the ba ck bolt is secure. Never had a problem with the original strut although they are getting weake r. Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton=2C Christchurch=2C 8052 New Zealand. ward.t@xtra.co.nz Ph 64 3 3515166 Mob 0210640221 > On 2/07/2014=2C at 10:25 am=2C Kevin Challis wrote: > > > The test pilot isn't going to say he didn't check the bolts were engaged he is going to say it was a failure else where. > > I don't have any micro switches etc I just lean back and give both doors a good push at the rear and then the front. If the bolts aren't engaged you can tell straight away. When converting to the Europa it was drummed into me how important this is. > > It's on my check list. > > Kevin > > >> On 1 Jul 2014=2C at 23:02=2C Kevin Klinefelter wrote: >> gmail.com> >> >> Absolutely. The original post regarding loss of door during flight asser ted that the test pilot said the shoot bolts were engaged normally and it m ust have been the forward hinge that failed. I am assuming it was an alumin um hinge. >> I am not suggesting that SS hinges would keep your door on the airplane if the door ain't closed properly! >> >> Kevin >> >> >>> On Jul 1=2C 2014=2C at 7:54 AM=2C "John Wighton" wro te: >>> >>> >>> The doors will fail irrespective of hinge material as the fasteners wil l pull through=2C shear or tear out. >>> >>> I have not been able to access the photos int he original post - anybod y else have trouble? >>> >>> getting 404 errors. >>> >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171415_120.jpg >>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171459_125.jpg >>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2014_06_30_171401_136.jpg >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> John >>> >>> -------- >>> John Wighton >>> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425827#425827 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: My ailerons wont go down From: William Daniell 1. Firstly thanks to Howard Brooks who gave me the idea of downloading a clinometer from google play to my phone. I built a sort of stand so that the phone can stand on its edge out of a piece of hardware aluminium angle. Thus I could clip the phone to the trailing edge of the aileron. I checked the download against my smart tool - it turned out to be as good as my smart tool. 2. Next I fitted the flaps and ailerons lined them up and and marked the neutral position on the wing tip to avoid having to take the wings on and off with the flaps on. - incidentally using my newly acquired clinometer I found that my left flap as lower by 1 deg than the right flap. So i used Buds flap trimming advice and epoxied 4 plies of lay up on the top of the flap drive hole. Now the flaps are identical. 3. Next I took everything apart checked the aileron throw with my new phone clinometer. The left aileron was close to ok but i reset that to 22.5 up and set the wing QD to 90 deg to the bushes. 4. The right wing was waaay out. I sounded like the front edge of the aileron was contacting the channel in which it sits not allowing it to go full up. I checked this out by using a pencil scribble in the channel and masking tape on the LE of the aileron. It was contacting the channel right at the tip. At the same time the lower surface of the aileron was about 1/8 below the lower surface of the wing. So i taped a 3/16 washer as a spacer between the hinge and the wing. The lower surface was level with the wing and i got 24 deg up. I put 5 lay ups (over and above the reinforcement plies as a spacer on the hinge contact point. I set the left aileron to 22.5 up and made the QD 90deg to spar pins 5. I next went after the fuselage end. I had some aileron control tube left over which I cut in half and inserted into the control columns to check that the sticks are parallel - I used a couple of lazer levels but as bud says the eye was just as accurate. I then centered the sticks by using a spirit level on the top of the aluminium stick socket - I figured if the top of the socket was level then the stick would be vertical. Using a long 1/4 bolt I marked the center point on the seat front - drilled a 1/4 in hole and now i have the sticks centered and held. 6. Next I turned my attention the fuze QD. Using a cut down spirit level which I had previously checked for accuracy i checked that the QDs were vertical with the sticks vertical. ( I had previously leveled the fuze both ways). they were. 7. I put is all together and hey presto very close to perfect. 8. Ive still got some fiddling around to do but buds instructions were spot on. the take aways from this are: - measuring tools are not tools they are "instruments" and require checking. - Only some of the levels i had were accurate - I had previously used a old style clinometer - like a protractor with a dial- it simply wasn't accurate enough - check all your instruments coincide before you start - the free download clinometer is the absolute business as accurate as the smart level and a lot cheaper - You get better at this as you go along. I was pretty much sure I had done the process right the first time a couple of years back. - There was a wrinkle which as the right wing aileron movement which I would have picked up if I had had the right kit. thanks for all help and suggestions I hope this is the last bleat (on this subject) yours Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:35 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: France Holidaying Suggestions Gidday, We are coming across to France in late August early September for 2-3 weeks and would like some suggestions in particular of places out of the way, and maybe some hiking day trips as well. Well do the normal stuff, but I was wondering about trying to get out of the car and take in a bit whilst hiking. Id like to have a closer look at the Pyrenees and at this time of the year it should be the right time to get about. We might head down as far as Barcelona or simply tick the French box, including the Med. Any suggestions gratefully accepted, as I know a lot of our UK brothers spend time in France. Regards Tony Renshaw ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:58 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Europa-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Europa-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Europa-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Europa-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Europa-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: europa-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "europa-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Europa-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Europa-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/europa-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Europa-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Europa-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Europa-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Europa-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Europa-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Europa-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Europa-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Europa-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Europa-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Europa ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Europa-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Europa-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:34 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Europa-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Europa-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.