---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/04/14: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:27 AM - Re: DOOR detached during flight (John Wighton) 2. 03:59 AM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Karl Heindl) 3. 04:34 AM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 4. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Bud Yerly) 5. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (Tony Renshaw) 6. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: DOOR detached during flight (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 7. 03:00 PM - Re: DOOR detached during flight (rparigoris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:18 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight From: "John Wighton" Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge did not break. The structure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear-out failure mode. The force generated by the door flying up means that almost any airworthy structure would have failed. There is nothing wrong with the hinge design or manufacture. Build to the spec and ensure the pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable. Any changes to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justified by a stress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK). Regards JW -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426058#426058 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:09 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight John=2C But is it not desirable that the hinges fail when the door opens in flight ? Rather than having the door flapping about and doing untold damage ?Karl > Subject: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight > From: john@wighton.net > Date: Fri=2C 4 Jul 2014 00:26:43 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge did not break. The struct ure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear-out failure mode. The for ce generated by the door flying up means that almost any airworthy structur e would have failed. > > There is nothing wrong with the hinge design or manufacture. Build to th e spec and ensure the pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable. > > Any changes to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justi fied by a stress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK). > > Regards > JW > > -------- > John Wighton > Europa XS trigear G-IPOD > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426058#426058 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:09 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight Karl=0Ait is desireable that the hinges let go, rather than tearing out hal f the side of the fuselage.=0AThe force on a door behaving like a wing is c onsiderable.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fro m: Karl Heindl =0ATo: "europa-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Friday, 4 July 2014, 11:58=0ASubject: RE: Euro pa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AJohn,=0A=0ABut is it not desirable that the hinges fail when the door opens in flight ? Rathe r than having the door flapping about and doing untold damage ?=0AKarl=0A =0A=0A=0A> Subject: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight=0A> From: john@wighton.net=0A> Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 00:26:43 -0700=0A> To: europa-li =0A> =0A> Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge did not break. The structure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear -out failure mode. The force generated by the door flying up means that al most any airworthy structure would have failed.=0A> =0A> There is nothing w rong with the hinge design or manufacture. Build to the spec and ensure th e pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable.=0A> =0A> Any changes to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justified by a stress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK).=0A> =0A> Regards=0A > JW=0A> =0A> --------=0A> John Wighton=0A> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Read this topic online here:=0A> =0A> http://forums.mat ronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426058#426058=0A> =0A> =0A==0A> =0A> =0A> =============== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:20 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight  Photo E-mail View slideshow | Download images Karl, and all. As Graham said, we do want the hinges to fail. The door tab may fail as well. You are right as usual Karl. Who cares about the door as long as it comes off and doesn't affect flight characteristics. Any damage to the top of the aircraft, in my experience, is caused by grinding, or crushing the glass with the hardware, in the installation of the hinges. This is where the glass can get compromised. Some damage will always occur during a door detachment. Although I have seen poor layups in this area where there was only gelcoat holding one corner of the rebate in the hinge top. A couple layers of glass and a bit of filler fixes that during the build. If built as per the manual with stronger hinges, you can count on a door that opens in flight, will really tear up the top attachment area. You'll be doing a much larger repair for sure. If many different knobs, straps, locks, hold down fixtures are attached to the door it will have more momentum and even more damage will occur. If one builds the hinges as described and puts the hardware and washers as depicted (bed them in flox if you must due to the curves and such) and there are no manufacturing flaws, the door departs with only minimal damage to the hinge attach points. Usually it is fixable in a few hours then fill sand prime and paint. The doors as designed will last many years without damage as proved on our oldest aircraft. If you damage your door while running up with the door open, it is your fault, not the doors. If you allow the door to flip open in gusty conditions, it is your fault. If you leave the door open on the ground because it is hot, and another plane blasts yours (like I did) it is your fault. If you have bad struts, replace them with new ones and do the mod 66 or alternate as on my website to save weight and eliminate the door lift problem. (I even contracted a US factory to build new struts exclusively for me and my clients. Metal fittings, fairly inexpensive, and I figure at five years just replace them with the hoses on the engine and fuel system. There are no 970-3s on the back of the fuselage door strut ball attachment so it will pull out with a smaller hole and less damage if the metal end doesn't release.) If the door doesn't fit, won't close, or latch without a hydraulic ram, fix it. If you want a plane to last forever, it won't, but say you did, it would weigh a ton more due to all the extra stuff you must add for bullet proof longevity. I grudgingly learned to do the maintenance and follow an IRAN (Inspect and Repair As Necessary) annual inspection discipline. I program replacement of components as part of a time change schedule. I list all my consumables on the computer and keep stock. Two good old rules: If you want to add something to the airplane, throw it up in the air and if it hits the ground with a THUNK, its too heavy to be installed. If you change one thing on a proven design, it affects 20 others. See Drawing Attached or below. I don't know which shows on matronics: Regards, Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: GRAHAM SINGLETON To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 04, 2014 7:03 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight Karl it is desirable that the hinges let go, rather than tearing out half the side of the fuselage. The force on a door behaving like a wing is considerable. Graham ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Karl Heindl > To: "europa-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Friday, 4 July 2014, 11:58 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight John, But is it not desirable that the hinges fail when the door opens in flight ? Rather than having the door flapping about and doing untold damage ? Karl > Subject: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight > From: john@wighton.net > Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 00:26:43 -0700 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge did not break. The structure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear-out failure mode. The force generated by the door flying up means that almost any airworthy structure would have failed. > > There is nothing wrong with the hinge design or manufacture. Build to the spec and ensure the pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable. > > Any changes to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justified by a stress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK). > > Regards > JW > > -------- > John Wighton > Europa XS trigear G-IPOD > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426058#426058 > > > > > ank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.mat"no follow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f========= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution These photos will be available on SkyDrive for 30 days. To learn more about SkyDrive, click here. To share high quality pictures with your friends and family using MSN Photo E-mail, join MSN. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:32 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight John and all, Mal Mc Lures "lock" design is a simple two engaging blocks such that the door is closed and the middle part of the door frame is pulled in, and over this step arrangement. They are no more than 20x20 x 6mm in size, with a single rivet holding them in place, and maybe some redux underneath, knowing how Mal built. So you close the door, pull in at the middle bottom until it clicks, and then actuate closed. If something so simple needs a mod, and how you would do any stress analysis, and of what, anything is a mute point. I would say it would be impossible and based on a raft of other suppositions. It's a simple addition, not a mod per se. TR Sent from my iPad > On 4 Jul 2014, at 2:26 am, "John Wighton" wrote: > > > Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge did not break. The structure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear-out failure mode. The force generated by the door flying up means that almost any airworthy structure would have failed. > > There is nothing wrong with the hinge design or manufacture. Build to the spec and ensure the pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable. > > Any changes to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justified by a stress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK). > > Regards > JW > > -------- > John Wighton > Europa XS trigear G-IPOD > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426058#426058 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:06 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight Tony=0Aexactly! Perfect description of what to me was obvious but my tongue isn't=0Afluent enough to describe it. Or maybe I haven't the patience top type it out! {{!:-0=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: Tony Renshaw =0ATo: "europa-list@matron ics.com" =0ASent: Friday, 4 July 2014, 21:43=0A Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight=0A =0A=0A--> Euro pa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw =0A=0AJoh n and all,=0AMal Mc Lures "lock" design is a simple two engaging blocks suc h that the door is closed and the middle part of the door frame is pulled i n, and over this step arrangement. They are no more than 20x20 x 6mm in siz e, with a single rivet holding them in place, and maybe some redux undernea th, knowing how Mal built. So you close the door, pull in at the middle bot tom until it clicks, and then actuate closed. If something so simple needs a mod, and how you would do any stress analysis, and of what, anything is a mute point. I would say it would be impossible and based on a raft of othe r suppositions. It's a simple addition, not a mod per se. =0ATR=0A=0A=0ASen t from my iPad=0A=0A> On 4 Jul 2014, at 2:26 am, "John Wighton" =0A> =0A> Can we just get one thing straight - the hinge d id not break.- The structure has torn away around the hinge due to a tear -out failure mode.- The force generated by the door flying up means that almost any airworthy structure would have failed.=0A> =0A> There is nothing wrong with the hinge design or manufacture.- Build to the spec and ensur e the pins are engaged and the system is 100% reliable.=0A> =0A> Any change s to this area is deemed to be a mod and would need to be justified by a st ress analysis and design submission to the LAA (in the UK).=0A> =0A> Regard s=0A> JW=0A> =0A> --------=0A> John Wighton=0A> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD=0A > =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Read this topic online here:=0A> =0A> http://forums.m atronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426058#426058=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> ======================== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:23 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: DOOR detached during flight From: "rparigoris" Hi Group FWIW I used a single passive pin and striker made out of Stainless for the center of the door. The door has a high enough factor of "wiggleation" to easily allow engagement when closing: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=29082&g2_page=3 (near top) If the rear shoot isn't engaged, my bet would be that the door is going to depart in flight even with the passive pin. BTW I used a modified McMaster suction cup (a little below middle of page 3 link) for a door pull handle. If an extension rope is needed it's EZ added. In addition to using checklist to check door before take off, I added McMaster switches to the rear shoot: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=29497 (near bottom) These are very nice water resistant high quality switches, the same I'm using on my outriggers and Beechcraft uses for their gear interlocks. My business is copiers. Over the years I have seen Osram and many other low time switches go flaky and not make all the time (minimal, moderate and near rated current draw). Thus far I never had a problem with the outrageous expensive McMaster switches I've used for applications I want tainted for best reliability. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426097#426097 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.