Europa-List Digest Archive

Mon 09/15/14


Total Messages Posted: 10



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:41 AM - Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess (jonathanmilbank)
     2. 05:24 AM - Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess (tonyvaccarella)
     3. 06:59 AM - Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess (tonyvaccarella)
     4. 08:07 AM - Re: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess (Rowland Carson)
     5. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess (Nigel Graham)
     6. 08:27 AM - Re: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess (David Joyce)
     7. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess (Pete Lawless)
     8. 09:13 AM - Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess (jonathanmilbank)
     9. 11:37 AM - C of G ()
    10. 02:24 PM - Re: C of G (David Joyce)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:41:24 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess
    From: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>
    Tony, I can't add much to the advice of others and my wings are the Classic early foam-cored type, so what I'm about to say may be irrelevant for XS wings. It is important to keep constantly in mind when creating the recesses that when the ailerons eventually get attached, their trailing edge downward deflection is limited by the mass balance weights touching the underside of the wing top surface. You need enough deflection for rigging adjustments. In the Classic the tolerance for downward aileron deflection is very tight and so it was imperative not to add too much thickness under the wing upper surface by adding unnecessary extra layers of anything. After attaching the aileron hinges to the wings, I was careful with temporarily attaching the mass balance foam arms and lead weights using 5 minute epoxy to ensure that the arms weren't angled too much upwards from the leading edges of the ailerons. Also allow a millimetre or so for the thickness of the "uni" glass straps which eventually get wrapped around the mass balance arms and their weights. What the others have already advised you all seems like good stuff to me. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430556#430556


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:24:13 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess
    From: "tonyvaccarella" <tony@weimagine.com.au>
    Thank you to all the people who have posted a reply to my post. I will be making a close inspection of the aircraft with my technical adviser tomorrow and hopefully some information will come from that meeting. Thank you all once again. Tony -------- Tony Vaccarella Mascot NSW 2020 Sydney Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430557#430557


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:59:49 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess
    From: "tonyvaccarella" <tony@weimagine.com.au>
    Hello again, Well I think I have finally worked out what's happened. I only took possession of this aircraft 2 weeks ago and been busy reviewing what I have and what is missing. The aircraft was sold to me as an XS and came from the USA s/n A011 but on closer inspection of the wings seemed to show that they are foam core. So I think I was sold a Europa Classic. It is for this reason that the mass-balance reassesses are missing at that they are not cut out. In reviewing the Builders Manual for the Classic Wing, the mass balance boxes are not provided and need to be build. Also the reassess is constructed AFTER the wing is closed. I feel releaved in one way but annoyed in another that I was sold a Classic when I was assured it was an XS. Has anyone heard of this happening before - should I be concerned with the Classic as compared to the XS? Thanks once again.. Tony -------- Tony Vaccarella Mascot NSW 2020 Sydney Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430565#430565


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:07:57 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess
    From: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson@gmail.com>
    On 15 Sep 2014, at 14:59, tonyvaccarella <tony@weimagine.com.au> wrote: > The aircraft was sold to me as an XS and came from the USA s/n A011 but on closer inspection of the wings seemed to show that they are foam core. So I think I was sold a Europa Classic. It is for this reason that the mass-balance reassesses are missing at that they are not cut out. In reviewing the Builders Manual for the Classic Wing, the mass balance boxes are not provided and need to be build. Also the reassess is constructed AFTER the wing is closed. > > I feel releaved in one way but annoyed in another that I was sold a Classic when I was assured it was an XS. > > Has anyone heard of this happening before - should I be concerned with the Classic as compared to the XS? Tony - it appears that kit A011 was sold by the factory in 1995 so its pretty certain to be a Classic, as the XS didnt come along until about 2000. No doubt opinions will vary, but I wouldnt worry too much about the difference between the XS and Classic wings. There are also differences in the fuselage (eg XS has larger baggage bay) but having flown in both models, I dont feel the differences are enough to get hot under the collar about. There are examples of combinations of XS and Classic parts - I think some Classic wings are flying on an XS fuselage, and some Classic fuselages have XS firewall-forward stuff. Did you get the build manuals as issued by the factory with that kit? Did you get any construction and/or inspection documentation from the original builder(s)? in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:17:39 AM PST US
    From: Nigel Graham <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess
    Tony, The original "classic" kits were sold in three phases, Kit one was tail planes with rudder, fin, flaps and ailerons. Kit two was the blue foam wings and kit three was the fuselage. There are many Europas out there that started life with "Classic" blue foam wings, but by the time their builders were ready for the fuselage kit, the "New" XS was available, so many of them ended up as hybrids. The good thing is that there is absolutely nothing "second rate" about the earlier wings. They are slightly shorter than the XS and have shorter but deeper ailerons and are reputed to weigh less (I haven't weighed mine to check), but fly just as well. The XS fuselage had a 2" deeper left hand footwell to address complaints from early flyers that the legroom was a bit lacking (why Europa didn't extend both footwells I have no idea), so a quick check to see it you have an XS fuselage is to see if these are the same depth or not. Other XS differences include an integrated fin (no longer a need to make the blue foam fin and stick it on), pre-moulded fuel drain cut-outs under the fuel tank and slightly different foam reinforcement around the rear of the cockpit module by the rear "D" bulkhead. If you do have this combination of foam wings with XS fus, you can feel happy that it is XS'ish. If however, the fus is the earlier "Classic" then you may be justified contacting the seller for a "robust" discussion. Either way, you have it now and I doubt you are going to ship it back to the States. Just get to grips with the build and have some fun, you'll end up with a fantastic little plane. I have copies of all of the original Blue Foam build manuals in pdf format. If you would like a copy, email me off list and I'll send them on. Nigel On 15/09/2014 14:59, tonyvaccarella wrote: > > Hello again, > > Well I think I have finally worked out what's happened. I only took possession of this aircraft 2 weeks ago and been busy reviewing what I have and what is missing. > > The aircraft was sold to me as an XS and came from the USA s/n A011 but on closer inspection of the wings seemed to show that they are foam core. So I think I was sold a Europa Classic. It is for this reason that the mass-balance reassesses are missing at that they are not cut out. In reviewing the Builders Manual for the Classic Wing, the mass balance boxes are not provided and need to be build. Also the reassess is constructed AFTER the wing is closed. > > I feel releaved in one way but annoyed in another that I was sold a Classic when I was assured it was an XS. > > Has anyone heard of this happening before - should I be concerned with the Classic as compared to the XS? > > Thanks once again.. > > Tony > > -------- > Tony Vaccarella > Mascot NSW 2020 > Sydney Australia > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430565#430565 > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:27:30 AM PST US
    From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
    Subject: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess
    Tony, The XS is a superior plane but not by a lot and the Classic still outperforms most other small aircraft. There are a number of modifications that are applicable to the Classic which give it most of the advantages of the XS. Principle amongst these are a strengthening bar between the rear lift pins to allow the Max All Up Wt to be increased to that of the XS (ie from memory to 1370lbs), A new design of baggage bay to give much more room for luggage and moving the rear wheel back from its original Classic position under the rear fuselage to sit on a tail spring extension a foot or so behind the back of the fus, with this significantly improving ground handling. If all these are incorporated then one could say more or le3ss honestly that it had been uprated to XS spec. If not already incorporated then it is a smart move to plan to do so. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 06:59:11 -0700 "tonyvaccarella" <tony@weimagine.com.au> wrote: ><tony@weimagine.com.au> > > Hello again, > > Well I think I have finally worked out what's happened. >I only took possession of this aircraft 2 weeks ago and >been busy reviewing what I have and what is missing. > > The aircraft was sold to me as an XS and came from the >USA s/n A011 but on closer inspection of the wings seemed >to show that they are foam core. So I think I was sold a >Europa Classic. It is for this reason that the >mass-balance reassesses are missing at that they are not >cut out. In reviewing the Builders Manual for the Classic >Wing, the mass balance boxes are not provided and need to >be build. Also the reassess is constructed AFTER the >wing is closed. > > I feel releaved in one way but annoyed in another that I >was sold a Classic when I was assured it was an XS. > > Has anyone heard of this happening before - should I be >concerned with the Classic as compared to the XS? > > Thanks once again.. > > Tony > > -------- > Tony Vaccarella > Mascot NSW 2020 > Sydney Australia > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430565#430565 > > > > > > > >Un/Subscription, >Forums! >Admin. > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:40:56 AM PST US
    From: Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info>
    Subject: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess
    Hi Tony Have a look in the wing root where the aileron push rod goes in. You will be able to see the blue foam in there. Just need to be careful of the stall characteristics if the wing is foam, as the original leading edge profile can get screwed up by the filling and sanding. Can all be sorted out easily by fitting short stall strips to the root end of the leading edge. Regards Pete PS Kit one was fin, rudder, stabiliser. Flaps and ailerons came with the wings. G-RMAC #109 very definitely not XS with foam wing! On 15/09/14 16:17, Nigel Graham wrote: > <nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk> > > Tony, > > The original "classic" kits were sold in three phases, Kit one was > tail planes with rudder, fin, flaps and ailerons. Kit two was the blue > foam wings and kit three was the fuselage. > > There are many Europas out there that started life with "Classic" blue > foam wings, but by the time their builders were ready for the fuselage > kit, the "New" XS was available, so many of them ended up as hybrids. > The good thing is that there is absolutely nothing "second rate" about > the earlier wings. They are slightly shorter than the XS and have > shorter but deeper ailerons and are reputed to weigh less (I haven't > weighed mine to check), but fly just as well. > The XS fuselage had a 2" deeper left hand footwell to address > complaints from early flyers that the legroom was a bit lacking (why > Europa didn't extend both footwells I have no idea), so a quick check > to see it you have an XS fuselage is to see if these are the same > depth or not. > Other XS differences include an integrated fin (no longer a need to > make the blue foam fin and stick it on), pre-moulded fuel drain > cut-outs under the fuel tank and slightly different foam reinforcement > around the rear of the cockpit module by the rear "D" bulkhead. > > If you do have this combination of foam wings with XS fus, you can > feel happy that it is XS'ish. If however, the fus is the earlier > "Classic" then you may be justified contacting the seller for a > "robust" discussion. > > Either way, you have it now and I doubt you are going to ship it back > to the States. Just get to grips with the build and have some fun, > you'll end up with a fantastic little plane. > I have copies of all of the original Blue Foam build manuals in pdf > format. If you would like a copy, email me off list and I'll send them > on. > > Nigel > > > On 15/09/2014 14:59, tonyvaccarella wrote: >> <tony@weimagine.com.au> >> >> Hello again, >> >> Well I think I have finally worked out what's happened. I only took >> possession of this aircraft 2 weeks ago and been busy reviewing what >> I have and what is missing. >> >> The aircraft was sold to me as an XS and came from the USA s/n A011 >> but on closer inspection of the wings seemed to show that they are >> foam core. So I think I was sold a Europa Classic. It is for this >> reason that the mass-balance reassesses are missing at that they are >> not cut out. In reviewing the Builders Manual for the Classic Wing, >> the mass balance boxes are not provided and need to be build. Also >> the reassess is constructed AFTER the wing is closed. >> >> I feel releaved in one way but annoyed in another that I was sold a >> Classic when I was assured it was an XS. >> >> Has anyone heard of this happening before - should I be concerned >> with the Classic as compared to the XS? >> >> Thanks once again.. >> >> Tony >> >> -------- >> Tony Vaccarella >> Mascot NSW 2020 >> Sydney Australia >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430565#430565 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:13:24 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wing missing mass balance reassess
    From: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>
    The foam filled Classic wings are definitely lighter by something like 10 lbs each. As regards the extended spring-arm tail wheel, I'll go to my grave insisting that the original tail wheel (direct cable linkage and no springs) is better with far less propensity to ground looping. I have about 700 hours in my own original tail wheeled aircraft and did the test flying of my friends aircraft with extended tail wheel for the initial permit issue. No, it isn't that I'm more accustomed to my own aircraft which causes me difficulty in keeping straight after landing in his machine. I have no doubt after several hours in his and I'm certain that the springs built into the linkage cause a lag in response whenever anyone applies pedal either way. These springs are a feature of both the factory extended tail wheel modification and the more tidy-looking extended tail wheel design by Graham Singleton. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has experience with both the factory- and the Singleton tail wheel designs. I understand why the factory saw fit to redesign the tail wheel arrangement and I accept that it probably helps during take off in a crosswind, but I believe that it makes matters worse for landing in a crosswind. I look forward to a reply from Graham perhaps to offer any suggestion as to what, if anything, might be done to improve tail responsiveness particularly after landing. Perhaps tighten the springs? In the meantime, I strongly recommend that Tony should fit a tricycle undercarriage, as I have recently done and enjoy stress-free landings. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430575#430575


    Message 9


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    Time: 11:37:20 AM PST US
    From: <f.kyle@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: C of G
    Good day I'm having catnips about the Above topic. The thing is, the C of G is too far back. Because I opted for the 914 and a heavier prop (many Canadian strips are in the woods), I attempted to counter this extra forward moment by early digital dials and accepting extra weights aft - at the expense of some performance in cruise. I did not add much to the aft weights mainly because of the large arm but was stunned to find it tail heavy. For this reason I appeal to early 914 mono drivers who have extended the tail wheel per the mod. The extended arm prompted me to apply to the master who painted her to see if perhaps there were fifty coats on her back. To that end, I have detached and weighed each stab: port = 12.0 lb, starboard = 11.8. If you have the above configuration Europa, and can handily measure the stabs, (or have such figures on record) I would appreciate the details. It might hint at a possible cause. Funny thing is, if I applied the 63lb tail weight to the arm which applies to the original tailwheel site under the stabs, the C ofG is happy....


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:24:31 PM PST US
    From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
    Subject: Re: C of G
    Ferg, can't give you an immediate answer to that but will in a day or two if nobody comes up with an answer sooner. Is your battery in the back? If not that would be a solution. Mine is in the front + 914 + wobbly prop + digital instruments and I needed 3lb of lead bolted to the fin bulkhead (accessed through the Trim slots) to give me what I consider to be the ideal APS C of G position of 58.5". You incidentally save quite a bit of weight in heavy duty cable and battery box since you can simply strap it on the bulkhead above pax feet with a 1" fence around its bottom. Regards, David On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 14:38:43 -0400 <f.kyle@sympatico.ca> wrote: > Good day > > I'm having catnips about the Above topic. The thing is, >the C of G is too > far back. Because I opted for the 914 and a heavier prop >(many Canadian > strips are in the woods), I attempted to counter this >extra forward moment > by early digital dials and accepting extra weights aft - >at the expense of > some performance in cruise. > > I did not add much to the aft weights mainly because >of the large arm > but was stunned to find it tail heavy. For this reason I >appeal to early 914 > mono drivers who have extended the tail wheel per the >mod. > > The extended arm prompted me to apply to the master >who painted her to > see if perhaps there were fifty coats on her back. To >that end, I have > detached and weighed each stab: port = 12.0 lb, >starboard = 11.8. > > If you have the above configuration Europa, and >can handily measure > the stabs, (or have such figures on record) I would > appreciate the details. > It might hint at a possible cause. Funny thing is, if I >applied the 63lb > tail weight to the arm which applies to the original >tailwheel site under > the stabs, the C ofG is happy.... > > >




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