Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:09 AM - Re: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror (stephan cassel)
2. 01:23 AM - Re: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror (Brian Davies)
3. 01:27 AM - Re: Location of VOR - Nav antenna (David Joyce)
4. 03:02 AM - Re: XS Tri Gear Wanted (Europaul383)
5. 03:51 AM - Re: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror (Frans Veldman)
6. 04:25 AM - Re: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror (Brian Davies)
7. 04:45 AM - Re: Location of VOR - Nav antenna (rampil)
8. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror (John Heykoop)
9. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror (Bud Yerly)
10. 12:48 PM - mod 77 pushrod rudder drive query (Rowland Carson)
11. 12:56 PM - rudder hinge queries (Rowland Carson)
12. 02:22 PM - Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror (Alan Carter)
13. 04:03 PM - MGL FF Meter with 2 Floscan Senders (Alan Carter)
14. 04:23 PM - Re: mod 77 pushrod rudder drive query (Fred Klein)
15. 09:41 PM - Re: MGL FF Meter with 2 Floscan Senders (Juergen Buschmann)
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| Subject: | Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror |
Hi Europa Friends
This topic has been discussed many times and rightly so.
I guess it due the fact that our planes are slightly different built.
I recall that when I first installed the sealing round the doors it was a
very tight fit (too tight)
It was not possible, or very hard, to lock the door. I then order new
sealing, very much the same
but with a slightly softer rubber and 2mm less in diameter.
That was the trick for me. The door is now very easy to close with one hand
.
When I close my door I always look at the door=C2=B4s lower part. It is ver
y
easy to observer that the
door advances inward while locking the door.
I do have switches/LED that tells me if it is not locked but I think it is
necessary to have this check
as part of the preflight drill.
I think hard and to much sealing can be addressed for some pin out
problems. "Mercedes-door"
feeling is absolute a contributing factor to minimize the pin out problem.
Best regards
Stephan Cassel
LN-STE Mono > 500 hours. What a wonderful plane it is.
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| Subject: | Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror |
Am I missing something here? If you have a door warning circuit that
brings a red light on when the door is open why do you need a test
circuit?
Standard check on ground-
Door open, red light on
Door closed, red light out
Surely you have just done a light test ?
Regards
Brian Davies
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly
Sent: 02 October 2014 23:10
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out
-horror
Tony,
Just make sure you have a push to test as "no light" doesn't tell the
whole story. It's just test cirucuit and extra wire. I can build a
door in the time it would take to lead you through how to do it fail
safe with proper door plunger switches that are adjustable.
I just saw something the other day. A strap of line attached to the
door handle so his wife could pull the door down. It was a lovely
decorative line, worthy of any draperies. Too bad it catches your hand
anytime you reach your hand forward or aft. I guess his wife does not
touch the controls or move when she is in the plane. He had no door
guards either.
I'll just push on the door in the center after closing. If you push
firmly, you will assure a latched door or see it move.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Renshaw <mailto:tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out
-horror
Hi Max,
Rather than 2 green door lights continually on, my intention is to have
a single circuit through both shoot bolt switches, and if either isn't
closed, the door and the circuit, a red light stays on, or inflight
comes on. That way, my panel has no lights unless something is wrong.
Tony R.
Sent from my iPad
On 3 Oct 2014, at 2:31 am, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
On Oct 2, 2014, at 6:44 AM, Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe@free.fr> wrote:
but if you want some cheap insurance too put a switch on each of the
rear
shoot bolts that puts a ground on a bright red LED directly in front of
you
on the panel...
And then install a test button to verify that the leds are still alive.
Complicate cabling AND checklist.
With thanks to Raimo Toivio for the design and components, I have
mounted two robust pressure switches which will give me two lit green
LEDs on the panel when the rear shoot bolts for the two doors are
engagedno need for test button to ensure system is
operationalreally quite simpleI=99ve also fabbed
tabs on both doors which are located so that pilot can reach to ensure
firm closure w/o relying on passengernonetheless: Checklists
Rule !!
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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| Subject: | Re: Location of VOR - Nav antenna |
Tony It seems most probable that it is a coms antenna
buried in the fin, which is the natural place for it and
it would be simple enough to connect it to a radio to
test. I have found that it works very nicely to have the
Nav antenna stuck to the roof just aft of the baggage bay
bulkhead, (and the transponder aerial on the floor
alongside the tail weight support tower, and the GPS
antenna/ae in the space overhead between the two doors)
All the best with your build, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On Thu, 2 Oct 2014 16:27:07 -0700
"tonyvaccarella" <tony@weimagine.com.au> wrote:
><tony@weimagine.com.au>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I need to install a VOR antenna on my Europa XS. The
>previous owner had some co-axial cable running through
>the stabiliser and protruding external in the rudder well
>(about mid way up). I dont know what his plans were but
>since the stabiliser is closed, Im trying to determine
>where and how the antenna (cats whiskers) can me
>installed. Since I dont think I would be the first person
>to have faced this challenge, I hope to dip into the font
>of knowledge of this forum.
> Regards from Sydney
> Tony
>
> --------
> Tony Vaccarella
> Mascot NSW 2020
> Sydney Australia
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431425#431425
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: XS Tri Gear Wanted |
Hello Bill,
Don't know if you get the UKGA email, but the latest one has this ad:
Europa Tri Gear G-DEBR For Sale
G-DEBR (kit no.232) has 210 hrs.A/F & Eng. Permit to May 2015. Engine Rotax 100
hp. 912S. Prop Warp Drive ground adjustable.
All...
http://ukga.com/classified/view?contentId=34256
HTH,
Paul M
383 XS Mono 912S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431437#431437
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| Subject: | Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 10/03/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Davies wrote:
> Am I missing something here? If you have a door warning circuit
> that brings a red light on when the door is open why do you need a
> test circuit?
Whether you have a red light that comes on when the door is unlocked,
or a green light that goes out when the door is unlocked, both systems
can fail easily.
A lit green light might be caused by the switch sticked in the on
position, or a red light might not lit because a wire is broken.
If we would rely on lights instead of a physical confirmation that the
door is locked, we would for sure have more door-incidents!
A solution is to have a test-switch, so you can confirm that the
system is working properly.
This means you have to put "test the door lights" on your checklist.
Another solution is to monitor the change of state of the lights while
closing the doors. A red light should be lit and then go out while
closing the doors, or a green light should be off and then come on
while closing the doors. This means you need to be aware of what you
are doing while closing the doors and monitor the light.
Bottom line is:
Instead of feeling that the door is closed we now have to push a
button, or we have to monitor the change of state of a light.
We don't gain anything by this.
I'm fond of gadgets in my airplane, but this one didn't make it for
the reasons above. It is completely useless. One potential for missing
something on the checklist is then replaced by another potential to
mis something on the checklist.
Frans
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| Subject: | Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror |
"Another solution is to monitor the change of state of the lights while closing
the doors. A red light should be lit and then go out while closing the doors,
or a green light should be off and then come on while closing the doors. This
means you need to be aware of what you are doing while closing the doors and
monitor the light."
Exactly my point Frans.
I have a door warning light system that gets checked every time I fly using the
above method but I don't rely on it. I physically check that the doors are
closed.
Sadly, human beings are more failure prone than a modern LED!
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
Sent: 03 October 2014 11:51
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror
--> <frans@privatepilots.nl>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 10/03/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Davies wrote:
> Am I missing something here? If you have a door warning circuit that
> brings a red light on when the door is open why do you need a test
> circuit?
Whether you have a red light that comes on when the door is unlocked, or a green
light that goes out when the door is unlocked, both systems can fail easily.
A lit green light might be caused by the switch sticked in the on position, or
a red light might not lit because a wire is broken.
If we would rely on lights instead of a physical confirmation that the door is
locked, we would for sure have more door-incidents!
A solution is to have a test-switch, so you can confirm that the system is working
properly.
This means you have to put "test the door lights" on your checklist.
Another solution is to monitor the change of state of the lights while closing
the doors. A red light should be lit and then go out while closing the doors,
or a green light should be off and then come on while closing the doors. This
means you need to be aware of what you are doing while closing the doors and monitor
the light.
Bottom line is:
Instead of feeling that the door is closed we now have to push a button, or we
have to monitor the change of state of a light.
We don't gain anything by this.
I'm fond of gadgets in my airplane, but this one didn't make it for the reasons
above. It is completely useless. One potential for missing something on the checklist
is then replaced by another potential to mis something on the checklist.
Frans
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-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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| Subject: | Re: Location of VOR - Nav antenna |
G'day Tony,
Before you hit transmit after hooking a Comm radio to an unknown piece of
coax, first check to make sure it is not shorted out, then see if you can borrow
an VHF SWR meter from a local amateur radio operator to see if the antenna
is tuned to anything close to the comm band.
Failure to do a reality check made fry the output stage of your radio
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431440#431440
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| Subject: | Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror |
I am with Brian on this one. We are all fallible and can so easily miss out an
item on the checklist, or fail to do a check properly because we get distracted.
If the item in question is the doors then the consequences can be serious.
Having two separate items on the checklist, checking the doors AND checking that
you haven't got a red warning light is good insurance against our shortcomings.
John
XL mono G-JHKP
> On 3 Oct 2014, at 12:24, Brian Davies <brian.davies@clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> "Another solution is to monitor the change of state of the lights while closing
the doors. A red light should be lit and then go out while closing the doors,
or a green light should be off and then come on while closing the doors. This
means you need to be aware of what you are doing while closing the doors and
monitor the light."
>
> Exactly my point Frans.
>
> I have a door warning light system that gets checked every time I fly using
the above method but I don't rely on it. I physically check that the doors are
closed.
> Sadly, human beings are more failure prone than a modern LED!
>
> Brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frans Veldman
> Sent: 03 October 2014 11:51
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror
>
> --> <frans@privatepilots.nl>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>> On 10/03/2014 10:22 AM, Brian Davies wrote:
>> Am I missing something here? If you have a door warning circuit that
>> brings a red light on when the door is open why do you need a test
>> circuit?
>
> Whether you have a red light that comes on when the door is unlocked, or a green
light that goes out when the door is unlocked, both systems can fail easily.
> A lit green light might be caused by the switch sticked in the on position, or
a red light might not lit because a wire is broken.
> If we would rely on lights instead of a physical confirmation that the door is
locked, we would for sure have more door-incidents!
>
> A solution is to have a test-switch, so you can confirm that the system is working
properly.
>
> This means you have to put "test the door lights" on your checklist.
>
> Another solution is to monitor the change of state of the lights while closing
the doors. A red light should be lit and then go out while closing the doors,
or a green light should be off and then come on while closing the doors. This
means you need to be aware of what you are doing while closing the doors and
monitor the light.
>
> Bottom line is:
> Instead of feeling that the door is closed we now have to push a button, or we
have to monitor the change of state of a light.
>
> We don't gain anything by this.
>
> I'm fond of gadgets in my airplane, but this one didn't make it for the reasons
above. It is completely useless. One potential for missing something on the
checklist is then replaced by another potential to mis something on the checklist.
>
> Frans
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
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> =dUPQ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror |
Brian,
Short answer: If the light is a normally closed switch and opens with
the with the door latch engaged, in the event the switch failed or bulb
burned out during taxi or door openned and closed again for some reason
just prior to takeoff while awaiting traffic, a warning light check is
done in many comercial/military aircraft to assure circuit, and warning
light are functioning (along with a visiual check). This checks the
circuit is good and not a "warning / malfunction system" failure giving
a false safety check. It seems if the lights are normally out for
takeoff, but go unnoticed in the on position during taxi, pilots are
creatures of habbit, if they didn't notice the lights during taxi, they
sure as heck wouldn=99t be looking at the light while they are
closing the door. They are busy getting ready for takeoff. And so many
times, pop went the canopy.
"Canopys closed and locked, stripes aligned (push checked secure for
us), warning lights out, test good. Ready for takeoff sir."
It was and still is part of the redundant redundancy check we have gone
through to assure canopys/doors are not lost on takeoff.
Push on the door still works. No lights, bells, whistles, just plain
checklist adherence.
"Doors checked secure."
Regards,
Bud Yerly
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Davies<mailto:brian.davies@clara.co.uk>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 4:22 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out
-horror
Am I missing something here? If you have a door warning circuit that
brings a red light on when the door is open why do you need a test
circuit?
Standard check on ground-
Door open, red light on
Door closed, red light out
Surely you have just done a light test ?
Regards
Brian Davies
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly
Sent: 02 October 2014 23:10
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out
-horror
Tony,
Just make sure you have a push to test as "no light" doesn't tell the
whole story. It's just test cirucuit and extra wire. I can build a
door in the time it would take to lead you through how to do it fail
safe with proper door plunger switches that are adjustable.
I just saw something the other day. A strap of line attached to the
door handle so his wife could pull the door down. It was a lovely
decorative line, worthy of any draperies. Too bad it catches your hand
anytime you reach your hand forward or aft. I guess his wife does not
touch the controls or move when she is in the plane. He had no door
guards either.
I'll just push on the door in the center after closing. If you push
firmly, you will assure a latched door or see it move.
Regards,
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Renshaw<mailto:tonyrenshaw268@gmail.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin
out -horror
Hi Max,
Rather than 2 green door lights continually on, my intention is to
have a single circuit through both shoot bolt switches, and if either
isn't closed, the door and the circuit, a red light stays on, or
inflight comes on. That way, my panel has no lights unless something is
wrong.
Tony R.
Sent from my iPad
On 3 Oct 2014, at 2:31 am, Fred Klein
<fklein@orcasonline.com<mailto:fklein@orcasonline.com>> wrote:
On Oct 2, 2014, at 6:44 AM, Max Cointe (Free)
<mcointe@free.fr<mailto:mcointe@free.fr>> wrote:
but if you want some cheap insurance too put a switch on each of
the rear
shoot bolts that puts a ground on a bright red LED directly in
front of you
on the panel...
And then install a test button to verify that the leds are still
alive.
Complicate cabling AND checklist.
With thanks to Raimo Toivio for the design and components, I have
mounted two robust pressure switches which will give me two lit green
LEDs on the panel when the rear shoot bolts for the two doors are
engagedno need for test button to ensure system is
operationalreally quite simpleI=99ve also fabbed
tabs on both doors which are located so that pilot can reach to ensure
firm closure w/o relying on passengernonetheless: Checklists
Rule !!
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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| Subject: | mod 77 pushrod rudder drive query |
Im installing the Mod 77 pushrod rudder drive as originated by Graham Singleton.
In the instructions (both Grahams version and the later version from the factory)
it offers the possibility of having turnbuckles in the tailwheel cables
for ease of adjustment. I had originally felt this was not necessary, but later
decided it would be a good idea after all. Having just bonded in the sternpost,
I had to get at the installed cable thimbles through the access panel. It
was not difficult to cut off the cable from the thimble round the spring with
a Dremel cut-off wheel, and not too awkward to install the fork end of a turnbuckle
in its place on the aft end of the spring.
However, when I exercised the bellcrank, the nicopress sleeve on the aft end of
the turnbuckle assembly is only about 20mm from the forward face of the sternpost
(even without compressing the spring on that side). The holes I made for
the cables through the fuselage side emerge on the inside only just clear of the
sternpost. With the turnbuckle travelling so far aft, that doesnt seem to leave
enough room for the plastic fairlead (and the layup to keep it in place).
I recall now seeing one or two Europas at the Rally with Grahams rudder drive and
turnbuckles out in the breeze just forward of the tailwheel, and I think I
now know why!
Before I start the fiddly job of re-making cable thimbles on the springs (and throwing
away the expensive turnbuckle fork ends), can anyone offer thoughts on
how the tailwheel cable turnbuckles can operate inside the fuselage without fouling
the plastic fairleads?
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
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| Subject: | rudder hinge queries |
Now that the sternpost and fin tip are bonded in, Im offering up the rudder to
the fin and checking where the hinges need to be. Now I have 2 queries.
(1) I cant see anywhere in the manual that mentions it, but I am assuming that
I need to trim the fin flush with the edge of the sternpost so as to have a straight
edge all the way from top to bottom. The flat part of the sternpost (ie
bonded to the fin skin) on which the hinges must go is only about 20mm, which
is the width of the hinges, so that looks OK.
(2) The top hinge partly lines up with the joggle in the sternpost for the junction
between the fin and the fin tip. Is it safe to grind that joggle back to
get a surface that is in line with the rest of the sternpost?
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
| pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson
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| Subject: | Re: In flight noticed the rear door pin out -horror |
Hi All.
The Europa is a simple aeroplane, if you like switches and lights that's OK.
The doors are in full view, and are within arm's length.
But the very best way is the Old Mark One Eye Ball. it works.
And its works looking outside as well, when flying VFR its the best radar you have.
rather than pushing button on the 5 GPSs.
We all make mistakes, Sarcastic comments are not needed when posting one's mishaps,
its nice to see pilots posting there experiences,
Well Done
Alan,
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431461#431461
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| Subject: | MGL FF Meter with 2 Floscan Senders |
Hi All.
I have just fitted am MGL FF meter to my 914.
My senders are Floscan and the K factor is given as 8456.
On test it ask for say 10 litres to top up, but I can only get say 8 in before
it starts over spilling.
I have upped and downed this k factor but still get the same problem.
The flow sender has the same K factor as the return sender, and the return sender
is measuring what's left after the engine has had its share.
My question : is a K factor of any value if you are using a flow and return sender.????
The flow1 sender is minus the return 2 sender, which gives the fuel used.
I want a higher reading, on the return sender showing an increased burn,
so I can get the extra 2 litres in the tank. That's not right,!!!! won't work.
I want sender 1 minus sender 2 to equal the actual fuel needed to refill.
Anybody MGL, Floscan x 2 and a 914
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431463#431463
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| Subject: | Re: mod 77 pushrod rudder drive query |
On Oct 3, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Before I start the fiddly job of re-making cable thimbles on the
springs (and throwing away the expensive turnbuckle fork ends), can
anyone offer thoughts on how the tailwheel cable turnbuckles can operate
inside the fuselage without fouling the plastic fairleads?
Rowland=85I too envisioned the aft turnbuckles within the fuselage, but
after encountering the identical problem you face, I also had concerns
about my ability to make adjustments to them plus the essential
safety-wiring=85consequently, my aft turnbuckles will be flying in the
breeze=85F.
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| Subject: | Re: MGL FF Meter with 2 Floscan Senders |
Hi Alan,
I use one Floscan and the MGL with my 912s so it is not comparable but
did you use the auto calibration in your MGL?
So you dont have to know the k factor but it can be displayed later on.
Refilling my 58l tank there is always about one litre plus or minus the
reading of my MGL.
I think that's good and more accuracy would be too much asked.
Please apologise my broken English
Regards Juergen
Am 04.10.14 01:02, schrieb Alan Carter:
>
> Hi All.
> I have just fitted am MGL FF meter to my 914.
> My senders are Floscan and the K factor is given as 8456.
> On test it ask for say 10 litres to top up, but I can only get say 8 in before
it starts over spilling.
> I have upped and downed this k factor but still get the same problem.
> The flow sender has the same K factor as the return sender, and the return sender
is measuring what's left after the engine has had its share.
> My question : is a K factor of any value if you are using a flow and return sender.????
> The flow1 sender is minus the return 2 sender, which gives the fuel used.
> I want a higher reading, on the return sender showing an increased burn,
> so I can get the extra 2 litres in the tank. That's not right,!!!! won't work.
>
> I want sender 1 minus sender 2 to equal the actual fuel needed to refill.
> Anybody MGL, Floscan x 2 and a 914
> Alan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431463#431463
>
>
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