---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/12/14: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:20 AM - Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published in December! (Matt Dralle) 1. 04:13 AM - Re: 57 minuts on 13 ltrs on a 914 (Roland) 2. 05:00 AM - Re: Acceptable runway length? (rampil) 3. 05:18 AM - Re: Electrical bonding (rampil) 4. 06:01 AM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 5. 08:07 AM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (PETER MORGANS) 6. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 7. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (Pete Lawless) 8. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (Ivan Shaw) 9. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (Pete Lawless) 10. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (Pete Lawless) 11. 11:40 AM - Re: classic tail wheel (spcialeffects) 12. 12:26 PM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (Tony Renshaw) 13. 02:03 PM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (Pete Lawless) 14. 02:20 PM - Re: Acceptable runway length? (Rick Moss) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:15 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published in December! Dear Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! In December I post a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 USA I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:37 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 57 minuts on 13 ltrs on a 914 From: "Roland" Hi Alan, as you know, I too have a Trigear with 914. In the fast cruise at 125 KIAS MTOM (which is 656 kg for my dutch registered Europa) low altitude I burn between 19 and 20 l/h. So 14 l/h at 110/115 kts is quite a good value :-) Roland PH-ZTI XS Trigear 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433498#433498 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:21 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Acceptable runway length? From: "rampil" I have a very similar setup 912s trigger with airmaster/warpdrive. My field is 900' AGL and is fairly rough grass, 2400' with obstacles at the ends. The key ingredient you left out was takeoff weight. Mine is 936 lbs empty which is middling light for american Trigears. UK Europas are almost always lighter. You should raise the nose about 45 its, then let it fly off. I use 65 kts as my target speed on final, then 50-55 its over the "fence." -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433499#433499 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:37 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding From: "rampil" Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate. The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable. In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rather, the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air friction static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive nuisance for lightning. There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground is the negative battery terminal. That's it. It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:54 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Ira, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce engineers involved in lightning protection for the Airbus series did not produce clear answers and my memory of the Europa lightning strike account is that there were burn marks at each wing tip and the strike had travelled across the plane. That being the case, it seems to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the aileron controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. Having been in a tram struck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour to a lightning strike, I am not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, but a large proportion of those flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been unintentionally caught in electrical storms. I did not imagine I could make my plane immune to damage but just to lessen the likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn out. Regards, David G-XSDJ On 2014-11-12 13:17, rampil wrote: > > Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will > accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you > have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have > them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes > is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate. > The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not > fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable. > In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to > wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rather, > the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air friction > static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive > nuisance for lightning. > > There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground > is the negative battery terminal. That's it. > > It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green > wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight. > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500 [1] > Links: ------ [1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500 [2] http://www.aeroelectric.com [3] http://www.buildersbooks.com [4] http://www.homebuilthelp.com [5] http://www.mypilotstore.com [6] http://www.mrrace.com [7] http://www.matronics.com/contribution [8] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [9] http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:50 AM PST US From: PETER MORGANS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Hi-David,=0AApologies for diving in on this topic.=0AYou may be intereste d to read AAIB Bulletin 12/99 (attached pdf) regarding the disintegration o f Schleicher ASK21 over Dunstable. Back in my gliding days in the late 1960 's it was mandatory for all gliders which held a B.G.A cloud flying categor y to have electrical bonding. I think the answer is to stay away from large Cu unless you have a parachute.=0AThe following link, ref. this accident, also shows photographs of damage:- -www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/.../ASK% 20accident%20report.htm=0AIt's sobering to look at the damage to fittings. =0A=0ARegards=0APeter Morgans - - G-CFKZ - -Trigear XS=0A=0A=0A____ ____________________________=0A From: "davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk" =0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, 12 N ovember 2014, 14:00=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding=0A =0A=0A=0A-=0AIra, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce enginee rs involved in lightning protection for the Airbus series did not produce c lear answers and my memory of the Europa lightning strike account is that t here were burn marks at each wing tip and the strike had travelled across t he plane. That being the case, it seems to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the aileron controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. H aving been in a tram struck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour t o a lightning strike, I am not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, bu t a large proportion of those flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been u nintentionally caught in electrical storms. I did not imagine I could make my plane immune to damage but just to lessen the likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn out.=0ARegards, David G-XSDJ=0A-=0AOn 2014-11- rampil@gmail.com> Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plas tic insulator will=0Aaccomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you =0Ahave an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am awar e off have=0Athem. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes=0Ais to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate.=0AThe water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not=0Afly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoida ble.=0AIn this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wi ngtip to =0Awingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you ca n not! Rather, =0Athe goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off ar eas of air friction =0Astatic charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive =0Anuisance for lightning. There is no such this as "ea rth" on a composite airplane. The only ground=0Ais the negative battery te rminal. That's it. It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and e arth ground (green=0Awire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight. --------=0AIra N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.ma tronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500 ectric.com=0A">www.buildersbook s.com=0Abuilthelp.com=0Alotstore.com=0Am=0A.matronics.com/contribution=0Att ======== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:49 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Peter, Thanks - absolutely no apologies needed - it is very pertinent! I had pored over this in great detail when preparing my Oz trip! Both in this and in the other GRP glider strike quoted the lightning ran from wing tip to wing tip, with arcing causing enough heating/shock wave to break open or delaminate the wing. It was very much because of this report that I hoped to provide a more attractive (both to me and the lightning) path running essentially outside the wing. Regards, David On 2014-11-12 16:07, PETER MORGANS wrote: > Hi David, > Apologies for diving in on this topic. > You may be interested to read AAIB Bulletin 12/99 (attached pdf) regarding the disintegration of Schleicher ASK21 over Dunstable. Back in my gliding days in the late 1960's it was mandatory for all gliders which held a B.G.A cloud flying category to have electrical bonding. I think the answer is to stay away from large Cu unless you have a parachute. > The following link, ref. this accident, also shows photographs of damage:- www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/.../ASK%20accident%20report.htm > It's sobering to look at the damage to fittings. > Regards > Peter Morgans G-CFKZ Trigear XS > > ------------------------- > FROM: "davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk" > TO: europa-list@matronics.com > SENT: Wednesday, 12 November 2014, 14:00 > SUBJECT: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding > > Ira, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce engineers involved in lightning protection for the Airbus series did not produce clear answers and my memory of the Europa lightning strike account is that there were burn marks at each wing tip and the strike had travelled across the plane. That being the case, it seems to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the aileron controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. Having been in a tram struck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour to a lightning strike, I am not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, but a large proportion of those flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been unintentionally caught in electrical storms. I did not imagine I could make my plane immune to damage but just to lessen the likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn out. > Regards, David G-XSDJ > > On 2014-11-12 13:17, rampil wrote: > >> >> Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will >> accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you >> have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have >> them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes >> is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate. >> The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not >> fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable. >> In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to >> wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rather, >> the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air friction >> static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive >> nuisance for lightning. >> >> There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground >> is the negative battery terminal. That's it. >> >> It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green >> wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight. >> >> -------- >> Ira N224XS >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500 [1] >> >> ectric.com >> ">www.buildersbooks.com >> builthelp.com >> lotstore.com >> m >> .matronics.com/contribution >> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ics.com > > www.aeroearget="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.c* My Pilot Store www.mrr --> [2]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [3]========= Links: ------ [1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500 [2] http://www.mrel [3] http://www.matronics.gt;<arel ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:23 AM PST US From: Pete Lawless Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Hi Guys I sobering pic of lightning damage to a fully bonded all metal aeroplane - I suspect in a Europa it would ruin your whole day! Plus an interesting Boeing article. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/4/ Regards Pete G-RMAC #109 On 12/11/14 17:24, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote: > > Peter, Thanks - absolutely no apologies needed - it is very > pertinent! I had pored over this in great detail when preparing my Oz > trip! Both in this and in the other GRP glider strike quoted the > lightning ran from wing tip to wing tip, with arcing causing enough > heating/shock wave to break open or delaminate the wing. It was very > much because of this report that I hoped to provide a more attractive > (both to me and the lightning) path running essentially outside the > wing. Regards, David > > On 2014-11-12 16:07, PETER MORGANS wrote: > >> Hi David, >> Apologies for diving in on this topic. >> You may be interested to read AAIB Bulletin 12/99 (attached pdf) >> regarding the disintegration of Schleicher ASK21 over Dunstable. Back >> in my gliding days in the late 1960's it was mandatory for all >> gliders which held a B.G.A cloud flying category to have electrical >> bonding. I think the answer is to stay away from large Cu unless you >> have a parachute. >> The following link, ref. this accident, also shows photographs of >> damage:- www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/.../ASK%20accident%20report.htm >> It's sobering to look at the damage to fittings. >> Regards >> Peter Morgans G-CFKZ Trigear XS >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* "davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk" >> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 12 November 2014, 14:00 >> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding >> >> Ira, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your >> superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce >> engineers involved in lightning protection for the Airbus series did >> not produce clear answers and my memory of the Europa lightning >> strike account is that there were burn marks at each wing tip and the >> strike had travelled across the plane. That being the case, it seems >> to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the aileron >> controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. Having been in a tram >> struck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour to a lightning >> strike, I am not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, but a >> large proportion of those flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been >> unintentionally caught in electrical storms. I did not imagine I >> could make my plane immune to damage but just to lessen the >> likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn out. >> Regards, David G-XSDJ >> On 2014-11-12 13:17, rampil wrote: >> >> >> Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will >> accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you >> have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have >> them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes >> is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate. >> The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not >> fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable. >> In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to >> wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rather, >> the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air friction >> static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive >> nuisance for lightning. >> >> There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground >> is the negative battery terminal. That's it. >> >> It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green >> wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight. >> >> -------- >> Ira N224XS >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ectric.com >> ">www.buildersbooks.com >> builthelp.com >> lotstore.com >> m >> .matronics.com/contribution >> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ics.com >> >> >> >> *www.aeroearget="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.c* My Pilot Storewww.mrr --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ========= >> >> * >> >> > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:32 AM PST US From: "Ivan Shaw" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding I don=99t think that this photo is a lightning strike!!! Ivan From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless Sent: 12 November 2014 17:42 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Hi Guys I sobering pic of lightning damage to a fully bonded all metal aeroplane - I suspect in a Europa it would ruin your whole day! Plus an interesting Boeing article. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/4/ Regards Pete G-RMAC #109 On 12/11/14 17:24, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote: Peter, Thanks - absolutely no apologies needed - it is very pertinent! I had pored over this in great detail when preparing my Oz trip! Both in this and in the other GRP glider strike quoted the lightning ran from wing tip to wing tip, with arcing causing enough heating/shock wave to break open or delaminate the wing. It was very much because of this report that I hoped to provide a more attractive (both to me and the lightning) path running essentially outside the wing. Regards, David On 2014-11-12 16:07, PETER MORGANS wrote: Hi David, Apologies for diving in on this topic. You may be interested to read AAIB Bulletin 12/99 (attached pdf) regarding the disintegration of Schleicher ASK21 over Dunstable. Back in my gliding days in the late 1960's it was mandatory for all gliders which held a B.G.A cloud flying category to have electrical bonding. I think the answer is to stay away from large Cu unless you have a parachute. The following link, ref. this accident, also shows photographs of damage:- www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/.../ASK%20accident%20report.htm It's sobering to look at the damage to fittings. Regards Peter Morgans G-CFKZ Trigear XS _____ From: "davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk" Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2014, 14:00 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Ira, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce engineers involved in lightning protection for the Airbus series did not produce clear answers and my memory of the Europa lightning strike account is that there were burn marks at each wing tip and the strike had travelled across the plane. That being the case, it seems to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the aileron controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. Having been in a tram struck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour to a lightning strike, I am not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, but a large proportion of those flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been unintentionally caught in electrical storms. I did not imagine I could make my plane immune to damage but just to lessen the likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn out. Regards, David G-XSDJ On 2014-11-12 13:17, rampil wrote: Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator will accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrate. The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable. In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engineer, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip to wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rather, the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air friction static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive nuisance for lightning. There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground is the negative battery terminal. That's it. It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500 ectric.com ">www.buildersbooks.com builthelp.com lotstore.com m .matronics.com/contribution ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ics.com www.aeroearget="_blank" href= "http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.c* My Pilot Store www.mrr -- > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ========= ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:45 AM PST US From: Pete Lawless Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:33 AM PST US From: Pete Lawless Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:50 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: classic tail wheel From: "spcialeffects" Had a very nice email, off forum with sound advice. Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433539#433539 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:24 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Me too. Never been a depressurisation in an airliner due to a lightning stri ke that I know anything about, and that hole is half the size of one of the o utflow valves. The way the paint has been removed, and scorched.....hmmmmm, v ery sus. Tony R. Sent from my iPad > On 13 Nov 2014, at 4:50 am, Ivan Shaw wrote: > > I don=99t think that this photo is a lightning strike!!! > Ivan > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lawless > Sent: 12 November 2014 17:42 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding > > > Hi Guys > > I sobering pic of lightning damage to a fully bonded all metal aeroplane - I suspect in a Europa it would ruin your whole day! > > Plus an interesting Boeing article. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom agazine/articles/2012_q4/4/ > > Regards > > Pete > G-RMAC #109 > > > On 12/11/14 17:24, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote: > Peter, Thanks - absolutely no apologies needed - it is very pertinent! I h ad pored over this in great detail when preparing my Oz trip! Both in this a nd in the other GRP glider strike quoted the lightning ran from wing tip to w ing tip, with arcing causing enough heating/shock wave to break open or dela minate the wing. It was very much because of this report that I hoped to pro vide a more attractive (both to me and the lightning) path running essential ly outside the wing. Regards, David > > > > > On 2014-11-12 16:07, PETER MORGANS wrote: > > Hi David, > Apologies for diving in on this topic. > You may be interested to read AAIB Bulletin 12/99 (attached pdf) regarding the disintegration of Schleicher ASK21 over Dunstable. Back in my gliding d ays in the late 1960's it was mandatory for all gliders which held a B.G.A c loud flying category to have electrical bonding. I think the answer is to st ay away from large Cu unless you have a parachute. > The following link, ref. this accident, also shows photographs of damage:- www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/.../ASK%20accident%20report.htm > It's sobering to look at the damage to fittings. > Regards > Peter Morgans G-CFKZ Trigear XS > > From: "davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk" > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2014, 14:00 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding > > > Ira, You may well be right and I am quite prepared to accept your superior electrical training, but talking to British Aerospce engineers involved in l ightning protection for the Airbus series did not produce clear answers and m y memory of the Europa lightning strike account is that there were burn mark s at each wing tip and the strike had travelled across the plane. That being the case, it seems to me to be a better idea to have a path other than the a ileron controls or wing light wiring to conduct it. Having been in a tram st ruck by lightning in my youth and lost a neighbour to a lightning strike, I a m not at all keen to go anywhere near a cu nim, but a large proportion of th ose flying 'VMC' from UK to Australia have been unintentionally caught in el ectrical storms. I did not imagine I could make my plane immune to damage bu t just to lessen the likelihood of control run welding or instrument burn ou t. > Regards, David G-XSDJ > > On 2014-11-12 13:17, rampil wrote: > > Bonding together small bits of metal inside a sea of plastic insulator wil l > accomplish nothing except add weight to your airframe unless you > have an array of static discharge wicks. No Europas I am aware off have > them. The best thing for a builder to do regarding lightning strikes > is to make sure there are no voids in the layups where water can infiltrat e. > The water will turn to steam and explode. Aside from that, Do not > fly near Cu. If Cu are unavoidable, just remember: Flying IS avoidable. > In this I respectfully disagree with David. As a former electrical engine er, I would also have to say, I can not see any benefit to bonding wingtip t o > wingtip, etc. The goal can not be to conduct a strike - you can not! Rath er, > the goal of bonding to discharge wicks is to bleed off areas of air fricti on > static charge back to the atmosphere, thus avoiding being an attractive > nuisance for lightning. > > There is no such this as "earth" on a composite airplane. The only ground > is the negative battery terminal. That's it. > > It's not a house! There's no neutral (white wire) and earth ground (green > wire) dichotomy. Just make all grounds short, fat and tight. > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433500#433500 > > > > > > > > ectric.com > ">www.buildersbooks.com > builthelp.com > lotstore.com > m > .matronics.com/contribution > ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ics.com > > > > www.aeroearget="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.build ersbooks.c* My Pilot Store www.mrr --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Eu ropa-List========= > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:28 PM PST US From: Pete Lawless Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Hi All Tried twice to post a reply but both times I got to see no content after the mail was delivered. Ivan is correct not lightning. Pic was originally posted as a strike when I was sent it a while back. Further checking this evening shows it to be now described as an electrical fire. Hope this mail gets through ok. Regards Pete ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:14 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Acceptable runway length? From: "Rick Moss" My Europa is pretty light at 874lbs; I'm comfortably within 1300lbs during most flights. I'm impressed with your strip at 900' agl....mines firmly at ground level :-) Thanks for the advice; will go experiment when weather and free time coincide! 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