---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/14/14: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:44 AM - Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... (Matt Dralle) 1. 12:43 AM - Re: Electrical bonding (John Wighton) 2. 12:45 AM - Operating limitations for Jabiru-powered aircraft (Roland) 3. 02:50 AM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 4. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (Karl Heindl) 5. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 6. 10:13 AM - Re: Operating limitations for Jabiru-powered aircraft (duanefamly@aol.com) 7. 01:15 PM - Re: Re: Electrical bonding (Karl Heindl) 8. 07:48 PM - Re: Electrical bonding (Paul McAllister) 9. 07:51 PM - Re: Wing Tip Lenses (Paul McAllister) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:59 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great List services!! Pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution too! The Contribution Site is fast and easy: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:35 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding From: "John Wighton" Ira, You echo may own opinion on this subject. Fortunately my Europa does not seem to generate a lot of static (of a kind that can be detected at least). There is not a lot that could be done if it did collect static whilst airbourne. I had concerns about static build up and discharge on the ground, particularly whilst fuelling. I adopt the standard procedure of grounding everything to the same potential by touch, relying on terra firma to act as a ground. So far there has never been the hint of a discharge even after a vigorous polishing session. Being involved in aircraft certification myself l am aware of the often heavy and costly solutions on larger aircraft. I am a structures signatory on the A350, this has a high level of composites content and poses new issues and solutions on many fronts, including bonding and lightning protection. -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:47 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Operating limitations for Jabiru-powered aircraft From: "Roland" Hello, maybe an interesting subject also for Jabiru-powered Europas.... http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_102279 Regards Roland PH-ZTI XS Trigear 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433663#433663 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:50:16 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding John & Ira , With the greatest of respect for your professional electrical & aeroengineering backgrounds, I think there are two rather different issues here: For certified commercial aircraft lightning protection standards seek to enclose all passengers and key aircraft components in a Faraday cage conducting system that will cope with the fairly frequent strikes affecting commercial operations without any significant damage. To bring composite aircraft to that standard clearly involves incorporating some conducting material in the entire surface of the plane and this is a nonstarter (or at least a non retrospective mod option) for a plane like ours. The other issue is the possibility of minimising any damage to a plane like ours in the event of a lightning strike, ( absolutely going along with the assertion that it is much preferable to avoid it). There are three good accounts of fibreglass small aircraft strikes that I have come across and in every case lightning went from wingtip to wing tip causing significant damage. These cases are the UK glider, previously mentioned (www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf [10] ) , another glider referred to in that AAIB report of the first glider and the Europa strike suffered by Paul McAlister (www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2004-08/msg00094.html [11] ). In each case the pilot thought he was well clear of threatening clouds it seems. The gliders had the strike track along the aileron control rods whereas with the Europa it tracked along the wing tip lights wiring killing a number of the avionics in passing. I would strongly recommend folk reading all these reports. Having personally done so I cannot avoid the conclusions that : 1. Getting struck by lightning is a real possibility for any sensible, cautious pilot let alone someone contemplating flying through the ITCZ where rapidly developing massive Cu Nims are endemic 2. Lightning can and will pass from wingtip to wing tip along the most available conducting track 3. More debateable perhaps but my third conclusion was that there is much to be said for offering a track that steers clear of vital structures, and in the light of this I had (in 2006) planned laying expanded aluminium mesh in the wing close outs connected to aluminium foil over the wing tip and to the rear lift pins/connecting rod. Nowadays I would no doubt use Aluminium Microgrid obtainable at modest cost from Aircraft Spruce. I would not for a moment want to suggest that this would give commercial plane standard immunity to damage, but that it would improve the chances of avoiding either the wing exploding or the loss of avionics or other key electrical systems. I had toyed with the idea of static diffusers but without a system of conducting static from other parts of the aircraft I was not convinced this was workable ( and I guess that this non conductance of static is what saves us from sparking when we touch ground - we are only discharging the immediate area of contact. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On 2014-11-14 08:42, John Wighton wrote: > > Ira, > > You echo may own opinion on this subject. Fortunately my Europa does not seem to generate a lot of static (of a kind that can be detected at least). There is not a lot that could be done if it did collect static whilst airbourne. > > I had concerns about static build up and discharge on the ground, particularly whilst fuelling. I adopt the standard procedure of grounding everything to the same potential by touch, relying on terra firma to act as a ground. So far there has never been the hint of a discharge even after a vigorous polishing session. > > Being involved in aircraft certification myself l am aware of the often heavy and costly solutions on larger aircraft. I am a structures signatory on the A350, this has a high level of composites content and poses new issues and solutions on many fronts, including bonding and lightning protection. > > -------- > John Wighton > Europa XS trigear G-IPOD > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644 [1] > Links: ------ [1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644 [2] http://www.aeroelectric.com [3] http://www.buildersbooks.com [4] http://www.homebuilthelp.com [5] http://www.mypilotstore.com [6] http://www.mrrace.com [7] http://www.matronics.com/contribution [8] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [9] http://forums.matronics.com [10] http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf [11] http://www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2004-08/msg00094.html ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:50 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding David=2C There are always exceptions. When I was hit by lightning=2C or call it elec trical discharge=2C in clear skies=2C it entered via the tailpipe and exite d via the radiators. Apart from some melted metal there was no damage. I al so have nav lights on the wing tips.It just illustrates that just staying a way from cu nims is no guarantee for avoiding a strike.Karl From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding =0A =0A John & Ira =2C With the greatest of respect for your professional electrica l & aeroengineering backgrounds=2C I think there are two rather different i ssues here: =0A For certified commercial aircraft lightning protection standards se ek to enclose all passengers and key aircraft components in a Faraday cage conducting system that will cope with the fairly frequent strikes affecting commercial operations without any significant damage. To bring composite a ircraft to that standard clearly involves incorporating some conducting mat erial in the entire surface of the plane and this is a nonstarter (or at le ast a non retrospective mod option) for a plane like ours. =0A The other issue is the possibility of minimising any damage to a pla ne like ours in the event of a lightning strike=2C ( absolutely going along with the assertion that it is much preferable to avoid it). There are thre e good accounts of fibreglass small aircraft strikes that I have come acros s and in every case lightning went from wingtip to wing tip causing signifi cant damage. These cases are the UK glider=2C previously mentioned (www.aai b.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf ) =2C another glider re ferred to in that AAIB report of the first glider and the Europa strike suf fered by Paul McAlister (www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2004-08/msg00094.htm l ). In each case the pilot thought he was well clear of threatening clouds it seems. The gliders had the strike track along the aileron control rods whereas with the Europa it tracked along the wing tip lights wiring killing a number of the avionics in passing. I would strongly recommend folk readi ng all these reports. Having personally done so I cannot avoid the conclusi ons that : =0A 1. Getting struck by lightning is a real possibility for any sensible=2C ca utious pilot let alone someone contemplating flying through the ITCZ where rapidly developing massive Cu Nims are endemic =0A 2. Lightning can and will pass from wingtip to wing tip along the most avai lable conducting track =0A 3. More debateable perhaps but my third conclusion was that there is much t o be said for offering a track that steers clear of vital structures=2C and in the light of this I had (in 2006) planned laying expanded aluminium mes h in the wing close outs connected to aluminium foil over the wing tip and to the rear lift pins/connecting rod. Nowadays I would no doubt use Alumini um Microgrid obtainable at modest cost from Aircraft Spruce. I would not f or a moment want to suggest that this would give commercial plane standard immunity to damage=2C but that it would improve the chances of avoiding eit her the wing exploding or the loss of avionics or other key electrical syst ems. I had toyed with the idea of static diffusers but without a system of conducting static from other parts of the aircraft I was not convinced this was workable ( and I guess that this non conductance of static is what sav es us from sparking when we touch ground - we are only discharging the imme diate area of contact. =0A Regards=2C David Joyce=2C G-XSDJ =0A =0A =0A On 2014-11-14 08:42=2C John Wighton wrote: =0A =0A =0A Ira=2C=0A =0A You echo may own opinion on this subject. Fortunately my Europa does not s eem to generate a lot of static (of a kind that can be detected at least). There is not a lot that could be done if it did collect static whilst airb ourne. =0A =0A I had concerns about static build up and discharge on the ground=2C particu larly whilst fuelling. I adopt the standard procedure of grounding everyth ing to the same potential by touch=2C relying on terra firma to act as a gr ound. So far there has never been the hint of a discharge even after a vig orous polishing session.=0A =0A Being involved in aircraft certification myself l am aware of the often hea vy and costly solutions on larger aircraft. I am a structures signatory on the A350=2C this has a high level of composites content and poses new issu es and solutions on many fronts=2C including bonding and lightning protecti on.=0A =0A --------=0A John Wighton=0A Europa XS trigear G-IPOD=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Read this topic online here:=0A =0A http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ectric.com=0A ">www.buildersbooks.com=0A builthelp.com=0A lotstore.com=0A m=0A .matronics.com/contribution=0A ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A ics.com=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:40 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Karl, Was that in a Europa? I do not want to rabbit on endlessly but my own plan had been also to link the engine frame to the tail spring of my mono in case the lightning came at me in that direction, Regards, David On 2014-11-14 14:53, Karl Heindl wrote: > DAVID, > > THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS. WHEN I WAS HIT BY LIGHTNING, OR CALL IT ELECTRICAL DISCHARGE, IN CLEAR SKIES, IT ENTERED VIA THE TAILPIPE AND EXITED VIA THE RADIATORS. APART FROM SOME MELTED METAL THERE WAS NO DAMAGE. I ALSO HAVE NAV LIGHTS ON THE WING TIPS. > IT JUST ILLUSTRATES THAT JUST STAYING AWAY FROM CU NIMS IS NO GUARANTEE FOR AVOIDING A STRIKE. > Karl > > ------------------------- > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 10:49:26 +0000 > From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding > > John & Ira , With the greatest of respect for your professional electrical & aeroengineering backgrounds, I think there are two rather different issues here: > For certified commercial aircraft lightning protection standards seek to enclose all passengers and key aircraft components in a Faraday cage conducting system that will cope with the fairly frequent strikes affecting commercial operations without any significant damage. To bring composite aircraft to that standard clearly involves incorporating some conducting material in the entire surface of the plane and this is a nonstarter (or at least a non retrospective mod option) for a plane like ours. > The other issue is the possibility of minimising any damage to a plane like ours in the event of a lightning strike, ( absolutely going along with the assertion that it is much preferable to avoid it). There are three good accounts of fibreglass small aircraft strikes that I have come across and in every case lightning went from wingtip to wing tip causing significant damage. These cases are the UK glider, previously mentioned (www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf [10] ) , another glider referred to in that AAIB report of the first glider and the Europa strike suffered by Paul McAlister (www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2004-08/msg00094.html [11] ). In each case the pilot thought he was well clear of threatening clouds it seems. The gliders had the strike track along the aileron control rods whereas with the Europa it tracked along the wing tip lights wiring killing a number of the avionics in passing. I would strongly recommend folk reading all these repo rts. Having personally done so I cannot avoid the conclusions that : > 1. Getting struck by lightning is a real possibility for any sensible, cautious pilot let alone someone contemplating flying through the ITCZ where rapidly developing massive Cu Nims are endemic > 2. Lightning can and will pass from wingtip to wing tip along the most available conducting track > 3. More debateable perhaps but my third conclusion was that there is much to be said for offering a track that steers clear of vital structures, and in the light of this I had (in 2006) planned laying expanded aluminium mesh in the wing close outs connected to aluminium foil over the wing tip and to the rear lift pins/connecting rod. Nowadays I would no doubt use Aluminium Microgrid obtainable at modest cost from Aircraft Spruce. I would not for a moment want to suggest that this would give commercial plane standard immunity to damage, but that it would improve the chances of avoiding either the wing exploding or the loss of avionics or other key electrical systems. I had toyed with the idea of static diffusers but without a system of conducting static from other parts of the aircraft I was not convinced this was workable ( and I guess that this non conductance of static is what saves us from sparking when we touch ground - we are only discharging the immediate area of cont act. > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > On 2014-11-14 08:42, John Wighton wrote: > >> >> Ira, >> >> You echo may own opinion on this subject. Fortunately my Europa does not seem to generate a lot of static (of a kind that can be detected at least). There is not a lot that could be done if it did collect static whilst airbourne. >> >> I had concerns about static build up and discharge on the ground, particularly whilst fuelling. I adopt the standard procedure of grounding everything to the same potential by touch, relying on terra firma to act as a ground. So far there has never been the hint of a discharge even after a vigorous polishing session. >> >> Being involved in aircraft certification myself l am aware of the often heavy and costly solutions on larger aircraft. I am a structures signatory on the A350, this has a high level of composites content and poses new issues and solutions on many fronts, including bonding and lightning protection. >> >> -------- >> John Wighton >> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644 [1] >> >> ectric.com >> ">www.buildersbooks.com >> builthelp.com >> lotstore.com >> m >> .matronics.com/contribution >> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ics.com > > ========== > _blank">www.aeroelectric.com > " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > ="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com > ank">www.mrrace.com > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > Links: ------ [1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644 [2] http://www.aeroelectric.com [3] http://www.buildersbooks.com [4] http://www.homebuilthelp.com [5] http://www.mypilotstore.com [6] http://www.mrrace.com [7] http://www.matronics.com/contribution [8] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [9] http://forums.matronics.com [10] http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf [11] http://www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2004-08/msg00094.html ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Operating limitations for Jabiru-powered aircraft From: duanefamly@aol.com =0AThe item that really bothers me (not too much because I'm here in the USA and this does not apply to us), is th at an Europa owner cannot take their wife, kid, friend up for a ride. =0A =0AIs anyone privy to what problems the Ja biru engine has been having that would cause this restricti on?=0A =0A =0AMike Duane=0A =0A =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom : Roland =0ATo: europa-list =0ASent: Fri, Nov 14, 2014 12:46 am=0ASubject: Europa-List: Operating limitations for Jabiru-powered aircraft=0A=0A=0A--> Europa-L ist message posted by: "Roland" =0A=0AHello,=0A=0A maybe an interesting subject also for Jabiru-powered Europas....=0A =0Ahttp://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_102279=0A=0ARega rds=0ARoland=0APH-ZTI=0AXS Trigear 914=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic o nline here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433663#433663=0A =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================== =========================== ===========================0A =0A=0A=0A=0A =0A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:55 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Of course it happened in my trigear Europa. I think it is one reason why gl ider pilots always wear a parachute. From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding =0A =0A =0A Karl=2C Was that in a Europa? I do not want to rabbit on endlessly but my o wn plan had been also to link the engine frame to the tail spring of my mon o in case the lightning came at me in that direction=2C Regards=2C David =0A =0A On 2014-11-14 14:53=2C Karl Heindl wrote: =0A =0A David=2C=0A =0A There are always exceptions. When I was hit by lightning=2C or call it elec trical discharge=2C in clear skies=2C it entered via the tailpipe and exite d via the radiators. Apart from some melted metal there was no damage. I al so have nav lights on the wing tips.=0A It just illustrates that just staying away from cu nims is no guarantee for avoiding a strike.=0A Karl =0A From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding John & Ira =2C With the greatest of respect for your professional electric al & aeroengineering backgrounds=2C I think there are two rather different issues here: For certified commercial aircraft lightning protection standards s eek to enclose all passengers and key aircraft components in a Faraday cage conducting system that will cope with the fairly frequent strikes affectin g commercial operations without any significant damage. To bring composite aircraft to that standard clearly involves incorporating some conducting ma terial in the entire surface of the plane and this is a nonstarter (or at l east a non retrospective mod option) for a plane like ours. The other issue is the possibility of minimising any damage to a pl ane like ours in the event of a lightning strike=2C ( absolutely going alon g with the assertion that it is much preferable to avoid it). There are thr ee good accounts of fibreglass small aircraft strikes that I have come acro ss and in every case lightning went from wingtip to wing tip causing signif icant damage. These cases are the UK glider=2C previously mentioned (www.aa ib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf ) =2C another glider r eferred to in that AAIB report of the first glider and the Europa strike su ffered by Paul McAlister (www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2004-08/msg00094.ht ml ). In each case the pilot thought he was well clear of threatening cloud s it seems. The gliders had the strike track along the aileron control rods whereas with the Europa it tracked along the wing tip lights wiring killin g a number of the avionics in passing. I would strongly recommend folk read ing all these reports. Having personally done so I cannot avoid the conclus ions that : 1. Getting struck by lightning is a real possibility for any sensible=2C c autious pilot let alone someone contemplating flying through the ITCZ where rapidly developing massive Cu Nims are endemic 2. Lightning can and will pass from wingtip to wing tip along the most ava ilable conducting track 3. More debateable perhaps but my third conclusion was that there is much to be said for offering a track that steers clear of vital structures=2C an d in the light of this I had (in 2006) planned laying expanded aluminium me sh in the wing close outs connected to aluminium foil over the wing tip and to the rear lift pins/connecting rod. Nowadays I would no doubt use Alumin ium Microgrid obtainable at modest cost from Aircraft Spruce. I would not for a moment want to suggest that this would give commercial plane standard immunity to damage=2C but that it would improve the chances of avoiding ei ther the wing exploding or the loss of avionics or other key electrical sys tems. I had toyed with the idea of static diffusers but without a system of conducting static from other parts of the aircraft I was not convinced thi s was workable ( and I guess that this non conductance of static is what sa ves us from sparking when we touch ground - we are only discharging the imm ediate area of contact. Regards=2C David Joyce=2C G-XSDJ =0A =0A On 2014-11-14 08:42=2C John Wighton wrote: =0A =0A =0A Ira=2C=0A =0A You echo may own opinion on this subject. Fortunately my Europa does not s eem to generate a lot of static (of a kind that can be detected at least). There is not a lot that could be done if it did collect static whilst airb ourne. =0A =0A I had concerns about static build up and discharge on the ground=2C particu larly whilst fuelling. I adopt the standard procedure of grounding everyth ing to the same potential by touch=2C relying on terra firma to act as a gr ound. So far there has never been the hint of a discharge even after a vig orous polishing session.=0A =0A Being involved in aircraft certification myself l am aware of the often hea vy and costly solutions on larger aircraft. I am a structures signatory on the A350=2C this has a high level of composites content and poses new issu es and solutions on many fronts=2C including bonding and lightning protecti on.=0A =0A --------=0A John Wighton=0A Europa XS trigear G-IPOD=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Read this topic online here:=0A =0A http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=433644#433644=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ectric.com=0A ">www.buildersbooks.com=0A builthelp.com=0A lotstore.com=0A m=0A .matronics.com/contribution=0A ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A ics.com=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A _blank">www.aeroelectric.com=0A " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com=0A ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com=0A ="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com=0A ank">www.mrrace.com=0A ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A http://forums.matronics.com=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ectric.com=0A ">www.buildersbooks.com=0A builthelp.com=0A lotstore.com=0A m=0A .matronics.com/contribution=0A ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List=0A ics.com=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:55 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electrical bonding Hello everyone, I documented my incident on my WEB site http://www.europa.net.nz/363/ If you go to the left hand side of the page and expand open the =9CFlying Experiences=9D tab you find a page titled =9CA Lightning Strike=9D As to adding discharge wicks, it my understanding that for certified aircraft they statically charge the aircraft and map the field. From this they determine the ideal locations for wicks. I guess if you added your own wicks you can=99t make things worse but on the other hand it might not accomplish much either. It is my understanding that the addition of mesh in the structure is for a different purpose. It is to provide areas to dissipate lightning strike should one occur. I don=99t have firsthand experience so I=99m happy to be corrected on the above. Paul ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:51 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wing Tip Lenses Hi Pat, could you tell me where are you located and how much you are looking for? Thanks, Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Tunney Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2014 11:27 AM Subject: Europa-List: Wing Tip Lenses --> Hello I have a pair of unused wing tip lenses, as supplied by Fred Klein. I no longer require them so if anybody is interested, please make me an offer. 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