---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/07/15: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:37 AM - Re: Tie-down points (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 2. 12:40 AM - Re: Fuselage join (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 3. 05:52 AM - Re: Fuselage join (William Daniell) 4. 06:30 AM - Re: Fuselage join (Greg Fuchs) 5. 09:02 AM - Re: Fuselage join (Fred Klein) 6. 12:03 PM - Re: Fuselage join (Greg Fuchs) 7. 12:35 PM - Re: Fuselage join (Fred Klein) 8. 12:38 PM - Re: Fuselage join (david park) 9. 04:17 PM - Re: Fuselage join (Greg Fuchs) 10. 04:31 PM - Re: Fuselage join (Fred Klein) 11. 04:38 PM - Re: Fuselage join (Robert Borger) 12. 05:08 PM - Re: Fuselage join (Greg Fuchs) 13. 05:09 PM - Re: Fuselage join (rparigoris) 14. 05:43 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage join (Fred Klein) 15. 05:55 PM - Re: Re: Fuselage join (Bud Yerly) 16. 09:39 PM - Stall Warning System installation (tonyvaccarella) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:47 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tie-down points Tim, That is how most UK monos tie down in my experience, with a rope round the mainwheel fork and one round tail spring. One potential lurgy worth mentioning is that in very windy conditions my brake fluid line was cut by the tie down rope, so only put that rope round port side of U/C fork, well away from brake line. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On 2015-01-06 16:48, Timward wrote: > > Happy New Year Everyone. > I have a Monowheel Classic and tie it down by securing the large main wheel and tail wheel only. The outriggers should prevent the wings from lifting. Therefore no tie down points are required on the wings. > Thoughts? > Just saw for the first time my aircraft flying from the ground after giving my son a rating to fly it! > Wonderful sight and such a proud father. > Now there is a cheaper way for him to build up his hours! > Weather dependent of course! > > Cheers, > > Tim > > Tim Ward > 12 Waiwetu Street > Fendalton, > Christchurch, 8052 > New Zealand. > > ward.t@xtra.co.nz > > Ph 64 3 3515166 > Mob 0210640221 as they Links: ------ [1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436605#436605 [2] http://www.aeroelectric.com [3] http://www.buildersbooks.com [4] http://www.homebuilthelp.com [5] http://www.mypilotstore.com [6] http://www.mrrace.com [7] http://www.matronics.com/contribution [8] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [9] http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:52 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage join William, I don't know that it matters much. It is in fact mentioned in the early part of the build manual but easily overlooked. I know of two very serious allergic reactions, one leading to the guy giving up the build Regards, David On 2015-01-06 23:01, William Daniell wrote: > thanks...go faster stripe is a great idea. > > As for gel coal thanks for warning ...wash with soap or solvent? > On Jan 6, 2015 5:59 PM, wrote: > > William, You can of course stick a go fast stripe over the join line, but if your 'amour propre' insists on a perfect finish then fill any low areas and sand it all down to a perfect finish. You should in any case sand all the gel coat surface down to complete matness without the smallest bit of refective surface visible, to give the optimum key to whatever paint system you plan to use. One word of warning on which: The release agent used in the original gel coat mould is a strong allergy inducer. Make very sure you have washed all gel coated surfaces very thoroughly before you start sanding them and wear a good mask. You might be totally immune to normal fibreglass dust but get caught out by the gel coat dust which is a more sinister animal! > > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > On 2015-01-06 22:31, Fred Klein wrote: > > On Jan 6, 2015, at 11:03 AM, William Daniell wrote: > > I have a visible join the upper half lip being slightly proud as a result sliding down over the bottom half. The joint is good and the difference is slight. > > What is the normal practice for the visible join line between the fuze halves? Does one have to sand down to the epoxy or can one fill on top of sanded the gel coat? > Will...I had the opposite problem...i.e., my lower half was proud, and problem solved by adding spacers at each cleco and thickening the Redux bed. For your case, i'd of course remove the gel coat along the edge of the upper half and rough up the gel coat on the lower half; I don't think it's necessary to remove the entire gel coat in order to add the requisite filler. Perhaps others w/ more knowledge than I will make other recommendations. > > Fred > > ectric.com [1] > ">www.buildersbooks.com [2] > builthelp.com [3] > lotstore.com [4] > m > .matronics.com/contribution [5] > ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [6] > ics.com [7] _blank">www.aeroelectric.com .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com ="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com ank">www.mrrace.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List tp://forums.matronics.com Links: ------ [1] http://ectric.com [2] http://www.buildersbooks.com [3] http://builthelp.com [4] http://lotstore.com [5] http://matronics.com/contribution [6] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [7] http://ics.com [8] http://www.aeroelectric.com [9] http://www.homebuilthelp.com [10] http://www.mypilotstore.com [11] http://www.mrrace.com [12] http://www.matronics.com/contribution [13] http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage join From: William Daniell AS it happens I washed the fuze down with soap and water and thus far no allergic reaction. I will have to remember to do the wings...or get the paint shop to do it :-). Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 3:40 AM, wrote: > > > William, I don't know that it matters much. It is in fact mentioned in the > early part of the build manual but easily overlooked. I know of two very > serious allergic reactions, one leading to the guy giving up the build > > Regards, David > > > On 2015-01-06 23:01, William Daniell wrote: > > thanks...go faster stripe is a great idea. > > As for gel coal thanks for warning ...wash with soap or solvent? > On Jan 6, 2015 5:59 PM, wrote: > >> William, You can of course stick a go fast stripe over the join line, >> but if your 'amour propre' insists on a perfect finish then fill any low >> areas and sand it all down to a perfect finish. You should in any case sand >> all the gel coat surface down to complete matness without the smallest bit >> of refective surface visible, to give the optimum key to whatever paint >> system you plan to use. One word of warning on which: The release agent >> used in the original gel coat mould is a strong allergy inducer. Make very >> sure you have washed all gel coated surfaces very thoroughly before you >> start sanding them and wear a good mask. You might be totally immune to >> normal fibreglass dust but get caught out by the gel coat dust which is a >> more sinister animal! >> >> Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ >> >> >> >> >> On 2015-01-06 22:31, Fred Klein wrote: >> >> >> On Jan 6, 2015, at 11:03 AM, William Daniell < >> wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I have a visible join the upper half lip being slightly proud as a >> result sliding down over the bottom half. The joint is good and the >> difference is slight. >> >> What is the normal practice for the visible join line between the fuze >> halves? Does one have to sand down to the epoxy or can one fill on top of >> sanded the gel coat? >> >> Will...I had the opposite problem...i.e., my lower half was proud, and >> problem solved by adding spacers at each cleco and thickening the Redux >> bed. For your case, i'd of course remove the gel coat along the edge of the >> upper half and rough up the gel coat on the lower half; I don't think it's >> necessary to remove the entire gel coat in order to add the requisite >> filler. Perhaps others w/ more knowledge than I will make other >> recommendations. >> >> Fred >> >> * >> >> ectric.com >> ">www.buildersbooks.com >> builthelp.com >> lotstore.com >> m >> .matronics.com/contribution >> ttp://www.matron ics.com >> >> * >> >> * >> >> _blank">www.aeroelectric.com >> .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >> ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >> ="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com >> ank">www.mrrace.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> >> * >> >> * > > ectric.com > ">www.buildersbooks.com > builthelp.com > lotstore.com > m > .matronics.com/contribution > ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ics.com > > * > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:43 AM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuselage join Fred, My problem was opposite of Wills and more like yours, where the lower fuselage skin surface was proud of the upper, and had to add spacers to the lower fuselage jog at the clecos to hold the upper skin surface out off the jog a bit. I have not glued the upper fuse to the lower yet, so here's my question. The thin fiberglass spacer discs were stacked one atop the other, until the upper and lower fuse were in the same plane (no compensation for glue thickness). My plan is to mix as little flox into the glue as possible to keep it as viscous, but prevent running. However, I am still concerned the thickness of the glue might mess up the 'calibration' that was done. How did it go for you (or anyone else doing a similar procedure)? Did you have to back compensate a bit? Regards, Greg On Jan 6, 2015, at 11:03 AM, William Daniell wrote: I have a visible join the upper half lip being slightly proud as a result sliding down over the bottom half. The joint is good and the difference is slight. What is the normal practice for the visible join line between the fuze halves? Does one have to sand down to the epoxy or can one fill on top of sanded the gel coat? Will.I had the opposite problem.i.e., my lower half was proud, and problem solved by adding spacers at each cleco and thickening the Redux bed. For your case, i'd of course remove the gel coat along the edge of the upper half and rough up the gel coat on the lower half; I don't think it's necessary to remove the entire gel coat in order to add the requisite filler. Perhaps others w/ more knowledge than I will make other recommendations. Fred ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:07 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage join > On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:29 AM, Greg Fuchs wrote: > > My problem was opposite of Wills and more like yours, where the lower fuselage skin surface was proud of the upper, and had to add spacers to the lower fuselage jog at the clecos to hold the upper skin surface out off the jog a bit. I have not glued the upper fuse to the lower yet, so here's my question. > > The thin fiberglass spacer discs were stacked one atop the other, until the upper and lower fuse were in the same plane (no compensation for glue thickness). My plan is to mix as little flox into the glue as possible to keep it as viscous, but prevent running. However, I am still concerned the thickness of the glue might mess up the 'calibration' that was done. > > How did it go for you (or anyone else doing a similar procedure)? Did you have to back compensate a bit? Greg, I used two thicknesses of spacers (regular, and thin [T]) to which I used 5 min. epoxy to bond to flangewhen mixing the Redux, I set a bit aside before adding flox and dabbed pure Redux onto each spacer. When applying the stiff, flox=99ed Redux, I attempted to keep it a tad away from the spacers, relying upon the =9Csquishing=9D to fill any voidsmy clecos were spaced 6=9D apart...it seemed to work AOK. F. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:31 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuselage join Thanks Fred, it sounds like I am Good to go as it sits....when the time comes. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:51 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage join > On Jan 7, 2015, at 12:02 PM, Greg Fuchs wrote: > > Thanks Fred, it sounds like I am Good to go as it sits....when the time comes. Gregone thing to look out for: Because I fitted and removed top from bottom so many times, I found that some of the clecos would pull thru the bottom flange. This necessitated epoxying small squares of scrap FG to the inside face of the flange and drilling fresh holes which the clecoes would grip against. F. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:10 PM PST US From: david park Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage join When i did mine we had applicators and one mixer. Any joint line was later v anished with filler. Thanks to Nev Eyre. Dave L-LDVO Sent from my iPhone > On 7 Jan 2015, at 20:02, Greg Fuchs wrote: > > > > Thanks Fred, it sounds like I am Good to go as it sits....when the time co mes. > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:56 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuselage join Dave: Yeah, many hands will be needed for sure, ...or if masochistic work at leisure in cold temps and heat the place up to cure the glue :) Fred: I have a number of holes that have pulled thru already that will need the procedure. Will have to remember to use a proper-size drill bit to look for ones that are close to failing, to prevent 'gotchyas' during the procedure. _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of david park Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 12:38 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage join When i did mine we had applicators and one mixer. Any joint line was later vanished with filler. Thanks to Nev Eyre. Dave L-LDVO Sent from my iPhone On 7 Jan 2015, at 20:02, Greg Fuchs wrote: Thanks Fred, it sounds like I am Good to go as it sits....when the time comes. D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:12 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage join > On Jan 7, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Greg Fuchs wrote: > > Fred: I have a number of holes that have pulled thru already that will need the procedure. Will have to remember to use a proper-size drill bit to look for ones that are close to failing, to prevent 'gotchyas' during the procedure. Greg...Amen to thatmy point exactlygood luck, F. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage join From: Robert Borger Guys, You can also use a small washer to prevent the cleco from pulling through the fiberglass. Just be sure to grease it and the cleco well or you=99ll play heck getting them out again ;^) Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:16 PM, Greg Fuchs wrote: Dave: Yeah, many hands will be needed for sure, ...or if masochistic work at leisure in cold temps and heat the place up to cure the glue :) Fred: I have a number of holes that have pulled thru already that will need the procedure. Will have to remember to use a proper-size drill bit to look for ones that are close to failing, to prevent 'gotchyas' during the procedure. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:16 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuselage join Yes, but the mini troll that I hire to stay inside the fuselage while the clecos are being inserted in the fuse-join procedure would be really happy for the extra hazard pay for the bumps, blood splatter and bruises he may aquire for doing that job :O _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 4:38 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuselage join Guys, You can also use a small washer to prevent the cleco from pulling through the fiberglass. Just be sure to grease it and the cleco well or you'll play heck getting them out again ;^) Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:16 PM, Greg Fuchs wrote: Dave: Yeah, many hands will be needed for sure, ...or if masochistic work at leisure in cold temps and heat the place up to cure the glue :) Fred: I have a number of holes that have pulled thru already that will need the procedure. Will have to remember to use a proper-size drill bit to look for ones that are close to failing, to prevent 'gotchyas' during the procedure. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:57 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuselage join From: "rparigoris" Hi Group As far as the fuse seam joint: "awe, just screw it"! I used Clecos for a gazillion on and offs, but screws that captured very nice. I detailed my top bond on, could save a bunch of bullets in your foot: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=35521 (3 pages) There are more notes than this so study pics and my notes. Here are a few: ** pay attention for need to trim sternpost (easy to overlook) ** as I noted use enough fasteners, you can see recovery (I found out when I cut vent hole) ** my kit was missing foam and second layer of glass on the inboard side, so I added foam and glass ** My fin ribs fit terrible, so I mutilated and made them fit ** poor fit starboard side corner fixed by "dolphin" repair Good luck. Top bond on was a fun part of build! Enjoy. Sincerely Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436762#436762 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:18 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuselage join > On Jan 7, 2015, at 5:09 PM, rparigoris wrote: > > Top bond on was a fun part of build! Enjoy. =85and=85this enjoyment multiplies many times over, realizable only in retrospect, by the extent to which top-bonding is delayed until EVERY conceivable installation anticipated aft of the =93D=94 bulkhead is complete... ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:18 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuselage join Time for my two cents: Bob Berube introduced me to using the self tapping screws but caution is necessary. To fit the top I use US 3/32 inch clecos. This type of cleco does not pull through as easily since the lower flange is four layers. After fitting the top for the fourth time or more, sometimes I have to upgrade to 1/8 inch. We have probably close to 500 clecos so no big deal for us. For those using the British style temporary fastener: I will use washers with the British style fastener as the lip on these fasteners deteriorate the hole in fiberglass pretty quick. If I have to put on a washer, I have to prep the area, and I glue the washer on with super glue. Lasts a long time. Gluing is all about the prep. I wash the whole kit first with TSP or detergent to remove the release wax. Then I clean the joint with acetone and scotch brite. If you sand, and it makes dust, it's ready to glue. No dust on sanding, bad joint. Like Ron and many others, I will screw on my top on final, because I can put the screw in and pull down until the skins come to a nice fit. Don't pull the screw down hard and force the two skins to pull down so hard as to squeeze all the glue out. Nor do you want the screw to pull the outer skin away from the inner. It's a technique. Be careful. Screws are the same principle as the screw type temp fastener, which can be pulled down too tight as well. Technique: To get a nice fit, and get control of my joint, I open up my top side holes a bit to allow the screw to spin and not grip, and then allow the self tapping screw threads to bite into the lower so I can adjust the skin pull down with careful screw gun use... As for fit. I try to keep the sides level, but don't worry. Just fill it. The sides are flat on the kit, and I like to fill the sides then block a nice curvy rounded side. If the filler ever gets beyond 3/32 inch, consider putting a layer of 2 oz. glass over the filler. Peel ply and its ready for a bit more filler... No cracking. If you are worrying about your walkway area showing cracks around the wing fillet to skin, we lay one layer of carbon from just behind the wing spar out to the first forward rib to stiffen the skin, and to prevent cracks in the filler which is scary seeing cracks in your wing. Filler is a necessary evil in a composite airplane. Learn the technique. I started learning to fill by doing my wheel pants. I have found that nice wheel pants take as long to fill as the fuselage. All those curvy fillets are a pain. Have a happy new year you all. Best Regards, Bud Yerly -------------------------------------------------- From: "rparigoris" Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 8:09 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuselage join > > > Hi Group > > As far as the fuse seam joint: "awe, just screw it"! > > I used Clecos for a gazillion on and offs, but screws that captured very > nice. > > I detailed my top bond on, could save a bunch of bullets in your foot: > http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=35521 > (3 pages) > > There are more notes than this so study pics and my notes. Here are a few: > ** pay attention for need to trim sternpost (easy to overlook) > ** as I noted use enough fasteners, you can see recovery (I found out when > I cut vent hole) > ** my kit was missing foam and second layer of glass on the inboard side, > so I added foam and glass > ** My fin ribs fit terrible, so I mutilated and made them fit > ** poor fit starboard side corner fixed by "dolphin" repair > > Good luck. > Top bond on was a fun part of build! Enjoy. > Sincerely > Ron Parigoris > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436762#436762 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:20 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Stall Warning System installation From: "tonyvaccarella" Hi all, At the risk of sounding simple - I have a Europa Classic Wing that needs completion and would like to know where to find information about installing the Stall Warning on this wing. Information on the web has only shown stall warning installs for XS wings. Can anyone help please? Best regards, Tony Vaccarella Builder A011 (from USA) Sydney Aust -------- Tony Vaccarella Mascot NSW 2020 Sydney Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436772#436772 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.