---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/03/15: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:12 AM - Re: Fuel Tank moved!! (Greg Fuchs) 2. 02:23 AM - Flap root extension (jglazener) 3. 02:40 AM - Re: Binx nuts torque (Keith Hickling) 4. 08:14 AM - Re: Binx nuts torque (William Daniell) 5. 09:57 AM - Blue Mountain EFIS (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 6. 11:39 AM - 912S Starter on a 914 (Paul McAllister) 7. 12:25 PM - Re: 912S Starter on a 914 (Bob Harrison) 8. 12:48 PM - Re: 912S Starter on a 914 (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 9. 02:00 PM - Re: Fuel Tank moved!! (Mike Gamble) 10. 07:07 PM - Re: 912S Starter on a 914 (Paul McAllister) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:24 AM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Tank moved!! Mike, IMHO, It would be good to understand how the clearance issue happened, before committing a solution..or even whether you need one. Determining whether it was tank shrinkage rather than slippage might be the first agenda. When I tested my tank for holes, it was filled to at least 3/4 of a tank full of fuel for about 6 months. The tank changed shape over time, as noticed by the back side bulging out. Thus, the fuel was left in it until about a day before installation, thinking that it was best to anchor it to the aircraft in its normal operating state which could eliminate some strain from the fiberglass plies tugging at it. I did have to heat up and straighten out the back side of the tank though, or it would not fit properly into its position. A heat gun, some flat pieces of ply, and some weights were employed for that job. The fiber-glassing went well, and the clearances were fine upon assembly. Its been many years, so I am struggling to remember the time frame, but sometime in the months that followed with the tank dry of fuel, the tank reduced in size (shrank). I could tell, because in some areas it no longer touched the plies used to strap it in. I did not quantify with measurements..just used visual observation. Clearance was as much as 1/4" or so in some areas. Then I noticed the top side of the rubber hose at the tank outlet(s) brushing up against the torque tube. Not aggressively, just lightly. It doesn't concern me much. As soon as I put fuel in, it should resume the shape it had when I strapped it in. I did put in a plastic rubbing strip to protect the paint finish on the torque tube. I couldn't see any other way the outlet could be rubbing on the torque tube, other than it must be that it expanded when fueled and shrunk once again when the fuel was drained out (completely dry). Some day, the tank will be re-fueled, and I can see what happens for sure with this clearance. Some day, when the plane is close to being ready to fly, that is.. This may not describe your issue, but then again it might. Three months in your garage should be long enough for it to shrink. How completely did you empty your tank? I figure (guessing) the tank would take awhile to shrink, so it certainly would not happen in flight. Weeks to months probably. It would likely need to be mostly drained of fuel, to eliminate fuel vapor, which might arrest the tank from shrinking. I am completely guessing here of course, since I have not done these tests.. Tank treatment? ..My tank was shipped in late 2002. It 'should' have been treated with fluoride by then (crossing fingers). Greg _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gamble Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 10:12 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Tank moved!! Thanks for your input Greg. I had drained the tank which very possibly moved it up a bit but I would not like to think of this happening in flight. Did you measure the clearance from your torque tube with and without fuel? How on earth can I increase this clearance? The manual just gives a suggested 2cm distance tank to floor. Maybe this will generate some more response from the forum. Mike ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:00 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Flap root extension From: "jglazener" According to the manual, one of the last steps in fitting the wings and flaps is to build a flap root extension. I am nowhere near this, wings are still open and not yet fitted to the fuselage. Nevertheless I would like to get flaps and ailerons filled and painted. Partly because it keeps my painter friend busy and beholden to me, partly to spread cost, but also because I feel it may be a good idea to have the flaps to net size when closing the wing. I noticed that the NG flaps have the root extensions as a an integral feature ex factory. That suggests to me that having them on does not hinder further assembly work, but I want to check this before I do anything stupid or expensive. Any thoughts? -------- Jeroen http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=44165 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440229#440229 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:24 AM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Re: Europa-List: Binx nuts torque Will, Europa told me that you can=99t give a torque figure for them because it depends how hard they grip =93 takes quite a bit of torque just to turn them even before they are tight. Just tighten them up firmly. Nev (via Bob Borger) said : "No need for them to be too tight, I just nip them up, then a firm tug on a regular spanner [ wrench ], at a guess about 125 lb in, plenty tight enough to keep them from fretting, not enough to stretch the threads." Regards, Keith. Keith Hickling. From: William Daniell Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 6:16 AM Subject: Europa-List: Binx nuts torque Does anyone know what the torque on the binx nuts which are used for the engine subframe to ring mount is supposed to be? Many thanks Will ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Binx nuts torque From: William Daniell Keith thanks very much Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 4:39 AM, Keith Hickling wrote: > Will, > Europa told me that you can=99t give a torque figure for them becau se it > depends how hard they grip =93 takes quite a bit of torque just to turn them > even before they are tight. Just tighten them up firmly. > > Nev (via Bob Borger) said : > > "No need for them to be too tight, I just nip them up, then a firm tug on > a regular spanner [ wrench ], at a guess about 125 lb in, plenty tight > enough to keep them from fretting, not enough to stretch the threads." > > Regards, > Keith. > Keith Hickling. > *From:* William Daniell > *Sent:* Friday, April 03, 2015 6:16 AM > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Europa-List: Binx nuts torque > > Does anyone know what the torque on the binx nuts which are used for the > engine subframe to ring mount is supposed to be? > > Many thanks > Will > > > * > =========== tronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:24 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Europa-List: Blue Mountain EFIS Does anyone by any chance know anything about correcting the altimeter read out on a Blue Mountain EFIS? Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:39:01 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: 912S Starter on a 914 Hi all, The starter on my 914 occasionally throws a hissy fit when it's hot and I am looking into replacing it with 912S starter. Are there any considerations I need to take into account with the ring mount or water pump? My aircraft is an XS Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:57 PM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 912S Starter on a 914 Hi! Paul, Suggest you get the heavy duty starter , but you may need to lift the engine forwards To get it in. It is without doubt well on top of the job. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 03 April 2015 19:37 Subject: Europa-List: 912S Starter on a 914 Hi all, The starter on my 914 occasionally throws a hissy fit when it's hot and I am looking into replacing it with 912S starter. Are there any considerations I need to take into account with the ring mount or water pump? My aircraft is an XS Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:49 PM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S Starter on a 914 Paul, in 13 years my 914 starter has never given me any cause to doubt it, and I would wonder whether there is anything to be gained by changing to a different system. Certainly on occasions with engine & weather hot it might not start on the usual first or second go, but this is not because it doesn't turn the engine over nicely but presumably because all the petrol in the carbs has vapourised or some such. If you have a conventional battery rather than an Odyssey or equivalent (which have much higher cranking power) I would be tempted to change that first. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On 2015-04-03 19:37, Paul McAllister wrote: > Hi all, > > The starter on my 914 occasionally throws a hissy fit when it's hot and I am looking into replacing it with 912S starter. Are there any considerations I need to take into account with the ring mount or water pump? My aircraft is an XS > > Thanks, Paul > Links: ------ [1] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [2] http://forums.matronics.com [3] http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:00:20 PM PST US From: "Mike Gamble" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Tank moved!! Greg, Thanks for the info. What you say makes sense and I appreciate you taking the time to help me out. I put 60 ltrs in the tank today and shall leave things alone for a while to see if we get any improvement. I will report results . Mike (my tank was supplied in Jul. 99) From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs Sent: 03 April 2015 09:11 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Tank moved!! Mike, IMHO, It would be good to understand how the clearance issue happened, before committing a solution..or even whether you need one. Determining whether it was tank shrinkage rather than slippage might be the first agenda. When I tested my tank for holes, it was filled to at least 3/4 of a tank full of fuel for about 6 months. The tank changed shape over time, as noticed by the back side bulging out. Thus, the fuel was left in it until about a day before installation, thinking that it was best to anchor it to the aircraft in its normal operating state which could eliminate some strain from the fiberglass plies tugging at it. I did have to heat up and straighten out the back side of the tank though, or it would not fit properly into its position. A heat gun, some flat pieces of ply, and some weights were employed for that job. The fiber-glassing went well, and the clearances were fine upon assembly. Its been many years, so I am struggling to remember the time frame, but sometime in the months that followed with the tank dry of fuel, the tank reduced in size (shrank). I could tell, because in some areas it no longer touched the plies used to strap it in. I did not quantify with measurements..just used visual observation. Clearance was as much as 1/4" or so in some areas. Then I noticed the top side of the rubber hose at the tank outlet(s) brushing up against the torque tube. Not aggressively, just lightly. It doesn't concern me much. As soon as I put fuel in, it should resume the shape it had when I strapped it in. I did put in a plastic rubbing strip to protect the paint finish on the torque tube. I couldn't see any other way the outlet could be rubbing on the torque tube, other than it must be that it expanded when fueled and shrunk once again when the fuel was drained out (completely dry). Some day, the tank will be re-fueled, and I can see what happens for sure with this clearance. Some day, when the plane is close to being ready to fly, that is.. This may not describe your issue, but then again it might. Three months in your garage should be long enough for it to shrink. How completely did you empty your tank? I figure (guessing) the tank would take awhile to shrink, so it certainly would not happen in flight. Weeks to months probably. It would likely need to be mostly drained of fuel, to eliminate fuel vapor, which might arrest the tank from shrinking. I am completely guessing here of course, since I have not done these tests.. Tank treatment? ..My tank was shipped in late 2002. It 'should' have been treated with fluoride by then (crossing fingers). Greg _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gamble Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 10:12 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Tank moved!! Thanks for your input Greg. I had drained the tank which very possibly moved it up a bit but I would not like to think of this happening in flight. Did you measure the clearance from your torque tube with and without fuel? How on earth can I increase this clearance? The manual just gives a suggested 2cm distance tank to floor. Maybe this will generate some more response from the forum. Mike ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S Starter on a 914 From: Paul McAllister Hello David, The on occasions the starter won't engage when the engine is hot and I have done several starts. It mostly occurs when I am doing a prop balance. If I tap (bang) on it then it generally springs into life. I have an Odyssey battery. My guess is if I pulled it apart I'd probably find stuck brushes or something. I am hoping that the advantage of going to the heavy duty starter is that it will end the occasional kick back. Regards, Paul .. On Friday, April 3, 2015, wrote: > Paul, in 13 years my 914 starter has never given me any cause to doubt > it, and I would wonder whether there is anything to be gained by changing > to a different system. Certainly on occasions with engine & weather hot it > might not start on the usual first or second go, but this is not because it > doesn't turn the engine over nicely but presumably because all the petrol > in the carbs has vapourised or some such. If you have a conventional > battery rather than an Odyssey or equivalent (which have much higher > cranking power) I would be tempted to change that first. > > Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.