---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/12/15: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:03 AM - Re: Autopilot servo instalation (William Daniell) 2. 07:36 AM - Re: Electronic Flap position indicator (Rick Moss) 3. 09:01 AM - Re: flap deflection question (Rowland Carson) 4. 10:08 AM - Re: flap deflection question (Fred Klein) 5. 02:54 PM - Re: flap deflection question (Rowland Carson) 6. 03:48 PM - Re: flap deflection question (William Daniell) 7. 06:00 PM - Re: flap deflection question (Fred Klein) 8. 06:48 PM - Re: flap deflection question (Bud Yerly) 9. 07:03 PM - Re: Autopilot servo instalation (Bud Yerly) 10. 07:14 PM - Re: Autopilot servo instalation (William Daniell) 11. 10:24 PM - Re: Re: Nose Wheel Bearing (Bud Yerly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Autopilot servo instalation From: William Daniell Alain thank you. Very nice. How do did you install the plate on the tail control mechanism...must have been rather difficult. I am 1.95 and I dont see myself getting into the back of the aircraft to install the plate! I was thinking of a similar place for the servo but with a bracket on the torque tube instead of the plate and control long rod you used. However I wonder about the integrity of the torque tube as it seems a little thin. I think that I will have a look at the feasibility of installing something like your system. many thanks Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:05 PM, Alain Chabert wrote: > Hello, > Look at the solution I adopted from 330 hours and is much simpler than th e > proposed mod. > Regards > > *Alain CHABERT* > > > Le 11/04/2015 18:44, William Daniell a =C3=A9crit : > > I have seen searching through the list that there are some alternatives > to the major surgery required for Mod 75 and 76. > > For example I saw some correspondence between Raimo and Bob Gowing > connecting servo to the tail plane torque tube using a bracket. I assume > that the service is mounted on a fiberglass bracket mounted on the floor > .... > > Could I prevail on anyone who has who has an alternative to the > official mods and which does not require major surgery send me a pic plea se. > > Many thanks > > Will > > > William Daniell > LONGPORT > +57 310 295 0744 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:54 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Electronic Flap position indicator From: "Rick Moss" I fitted the 10-bar LED indicator to my flaps using existing wiring (my Europa was a barn find and had the panel unceremoniously removed when I bought it). I found the wires from the existing flap servo and deduced them to be a flap position indicator (variable resistance with flap travel) and purchased the Ray Allen trim position display from Aircraft Spruce (unfortunately I could not locate it in the UK, and as I recall it cost circa $95 delivered). I do use it although always follow up with a quick look over my shoulder to verify! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440701#440701 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: flap deflection question From: Rowland Carson On 9 Apr 2015, at 21:32, Rowland Carson wrote: > the port flap was travelling 26.3 degrees and the starboard one 26.9 degrees. They both looked pretty well-aligned with the wing/flap template when retracted. I wondered if this is an acceptable amount of differential. > I thought I ought to check the movement with the outrigger legs fitted. After fitting them, the extended angles of both flaps are closely similar to those recorded before I fitted the outriggers, but the retracted positions are both drooping somewhat. The travel now is 25.3 degrees (port) and 26.0 degrees (starboard). > What, if anything, can (or should) I do about it? Looks like no-one has any ideas on this question, so I guess Ill have to ask the factory . . . . in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: flap deflection question From: Fred Klein Rowlandcan you quantify drooping somewhat? Personally, I gave up on attempting perfection long ago and have since settled on striving for excellencewhile reminding myself that my goal is to get Ms. Europa up in the air. Fred A194 > On Apr 12, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Rowland Carson wrote: > > > On 9 Apr 2015, at 21:32, Rowland Carson wrote: > >> the port flap was travelling 26.3 degrees and the starboard one 26.9 degrees. They both looked pretty well-aligned with the wing/flap template when retracted. I wondered if this is an acceptable amount of differential. > >> I thought I ought to check the movement with the outrigger legs fitted. After fitting them, the extended angles of both flaps are closely similar to those recorded before I fitted the outriggers, but the retracted positions are both drooping somewhat. The travel now is 25.3 degrees (port) and 26.0 degrees (starboard). > >> What, if anything, can (or should) I do about it? > > Looks like no-one has any ideas on this question, so I guess Ill have to ask the factory . . . . > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: flap deflection question From: Rowland Carson On 12 Apr 2015, at 18:07, Fred Klein wrote: > Rowlandcan you quantify drooping somewhat? Fred - I quoted the numbers both in my original posting of 9th April, and in my edited version today. 26.3 minus 25.3 is 1 degree droop (port) and 26.9 minus 26.0 is 0.9 degree droop (stbd). With the weight of the outriggers, both flaps seem reluctant to come firmly up to the retracted position, and can easily be wiggled up & down a bit by gentle pushing up & down on the outrigger legs, which seem to have a big mechanical advantage on the rest of the mechanism. Obviously folk with completed aeroplanes cant easily check if theirs behave the same as mine unless they have a dolly to support the fuselage while doing operating the retract lever. Maybe in flight the airflow will support the outrigger legs more towards the horizontal. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: flap deflection question From: William Daniell Fred Mine have about 1 deg difference down. To make the angle the same when retracted i put in a stop as recommended by bud. Will Rowlandcan you quantify =9Cdrooping somewhat=9D? Personally, I gave up on attempting perfection long ago and have since settled on striving for excellencewhile reminding myself that my g oal is to get Ms. Europa up in the air. Fred A194 > On Apr 12, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Rowland Carson wrote: > m > > > On 9 Apr 2015, at 21:32, Rowland Carson wrote: > >> the port flap was travelling 26.3 degrees and the starboard one 26.9 degrees. They both looked pretty well-aligned with the wing/flap template when retracted. I wondered if this is an acceptable amount of differential. > >> I thought I ought to check the movement with the outrigger legs fitted. After fitting them, the extended angles of both flaps are closely similar to those recorded before I fitted the outriggers, but the retracted positions are both drooping somewhat. The travel now is 25.3 degrees (port) and 26.0 degrees (starboard). > >> What, if anything, can (or should) I do about it? > > Looks like no-one has any ideas on this question, so I guess I=99ll have to ask the factory . . . . > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: flap deflection question From: Fred Klein Rowlandmy apologiesI was unclear. Yes, I saw your degree measurements, and when you used the term drooping somewhat my mind immediately pictured a misalignment of the flap trailing edge with that of the aileron (in neutral position) and I was wondering if you had a measurement in inches or centimeters between the twoFred > On Apr 12, 2015, at 2:53 PM, Rowland Carson wrote: > > > On 12 Apr 2015, at 18:07, Fred Klein wrote: > >> Rowlandcan you quantify drooping somewhat? > > Fred - I quoted the numbers both in my original posting of 9th April, and in my edited version today. > > 26.3 minus 25.3 is 1 degree droop (port) and 26.9 minus 26.0 is 0.9 degree droop (stbd). > > With the weight of the outriggers, both flaps seem reluctant to come firmly up to the retracted position, and can easily be wiggled up & down a bit by gentle pushing up & down on the outrigger legs, which seem to have a big mechanical advantage on the rest of the mechanism. > > Obviously folk with completed aeroplanes cant easily check if theirs behave the same as mine unless they have a dolly to support the fuselage while doing operating the retract lever. > > Maybe in flight the airflow will support the outrigger legs more towards the horizontal. > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:47 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: flap deflection question Roland and William, One degree or a bit less is about what the slop in the system gives you no matter how hard you work at it. The flap tube, when floating just off the baggage bay wall, is flexible enough that the flaps float in either the up or down position, nothing should bind or be forced. I prefer putting stops on the up point on the left and right sides of the flap tube, with the mono flap actuator tube all the way forward (gear up) and the flap tube just touching the stops. Then I drilled the top hole on each flap arm to set the flap incidence perfectly. I dropped the gear and sure enough, the flaps were off nearly a degree. How? I was so careful, how could it be off that far? Each flap is set with an about distance from the wing closeout, then we measure with a micrometer for the flap pin and eyeball the pin hole. We take our string aligned flap bracket holes, whack the bulkhead to get the hinge supports to fit and do our best to get the hinges level. Finally, we align a bent tube to the flap drive pins and try to align the hinge arms. It=99s a miracle if we get it to within a degree, from up to down but we do. The flaps are quite flexible and can be moved slightly by hand with light pressure in either the up or down position. If the ailerons aren=99t binding and a proper Annex E is accomplished, and the incidence is set right, the flaps look even by eye with the gear up (as shown in my trimming guide), the ailerons are even also with the flaps (tips also) and the plane will fly level with only the slightest of stick pressure. That can be fixed by using the techniques in my trimming document. Enjoy. Regards, Bud Yerly From: William Daniell Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 6:47 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: flap deflection question Fred Mine have about 1 deg difference down. To make the angle the same when retracted i put in a stop as recommended by bud. Will Rowlandcan you quantify =9Cdrooping somewhat=9D? Personally, I gave up on attempting perfection long ago and have since settled on striving for excellencewhile reminding myself that my goal is to get Ms. Europa up in the air. Fred A194 > On Apr 12, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Rowland Carson wrote: > > > On 9 Apr 2015, at 21:32, Rowland Carson wrote: > >> the port flap was travelling 26.3 degrees and the starboard one 26.9 degrees. They both looked pretty well-aligned with the wing/flap template when retracted. I wondered if this is an acceptable amount of differential. > >> I thought I ought to check the movement with the outrigger legs fitted. After fitting them, the extended angles of both flaps are closely similar to those recorded before I fitted the outriggers, but the retracted positions are both drooping somewhat. The travel now is 25.3 degrees (port) and 26.0 degrees (starboard). > >> What, if anything, can (or should) I do about it? > > Looks like no-one has any ideas on this question, so I guess I=99ll have to ask the factory . . . . > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > pa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List FORUMS - _blank">http://forums.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:36 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Autopilot servo instalation Alan, Nice clean job. I prefer not to run a thin wall one inch tube that far without an idler in the center. However, the pitch system only needs a couple of pounds of pressure when out of trim, and when the stab is trimmed neutral, very little pressure is necessary to move the stab. We design our systems for the worse case scenario, that is, full trim up the the max torque of the trim motor and the bending moment of the thin wall tubing has to be capable of taking the load plus a rather large safety factor (since it is a control system) without bending or flexing. If the trim tube should bend, it can jamb the flight control. I prefer to put the trim motor where you did, but make a 3/2 ratio arm to drive the tube via a tube clamp. However, to keep a short drive tube, I would recommend installing the new light weight servos behind the mass balance post using a two inch extension from the torque tube arm (there are two holes there anyway to mount .016 steel arms to). Use a 1/2 inch with .049 wall for the drive tube (like the aileron tubes). The length of the tube should be about 2 feet. Regards, Bud Yerly From: Alain Chabert Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Autopilot servo instalation Hello, Look at the solution I adopted from 330 hours and is much simpler than the proposed mod. Regards Alain CHABERT Le 11/04/2015 18:44, William Daniell a =C3=A9crit : I have seen searching through the list that there are some alternatives to the major surgery required for Mod 75 and 76. For example I saw some correspondence between Raimo and Bob Gowing connecting servo to the tail plane torque tube using a bracket. I assume that the service is mounted on a fiberglass bracket mounted on the floor .... Could I prevail on anyone who has who has an alternative to the official mods and which does not require major surgery send me a pic please. Many thanks Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Autopilot servo instalation From: William Daniell Bud Does this mean that you put a clamp on the main torque tube? Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Bud Yerly wrote: > Alan, > Nice clean job. > I prefer not to run a thin wall one inch tube that far without an idler i n > the center. However, the pitch system only needs a couple of pounds of > pressure when out of trim, and when the stab is trimmed neutral, very > little pressure is necessary to move the stab. We design our systems for > the worse case scenario, that is, full trim up the the max torque of the > trim motor and the bending moment of the thin wall tubing has to be capab le > of taking the load plus a rather large safety factor (since it is a contr ol > system) without bending or flexing. If the trim tube should bend, it can > jamb the flight control. > > I prefer to put the trim motor where you did, but make a 3/2 ratio arm to > drive the tube via a tube clamp. > > However, to keep a short drive tube, I would recommend installing the new > light weight servos behind the mass balance post using a two inch extensi on > from the torque tube arm (there are two holes there anyway to mount .016 > steel arms to). Use a 1/2 inch with .049 wall for the drive tube (like t he > aileron tubes). The length of the tube should be about 2 feet. > > Regards, > Bud Yerly > > *From:* Alain Chabert > *Sent:* Saturday, April 11, 2015 1:05 PM > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Autopilot servo instalation > > Hello, > Look at the solution I adopted from 330 hours and is much simpler than th e > proposed mod. > Regards > > *Alain CHABERT* > > > Le 11/04/2015 18:44, William Daniell a =C3=A9crit : > > I have seen searching through the list that there are some alternatives > to the major surgery required for Mod 75 and 76. > > For example I saw some correspondence between Raimo and Bob Gowing > connecting servo to the tail plane torque tube using a bracket. I assume > that the service is mounted on a fiberglass bracket mounted on the floor > .... > > Could I prevail on anyone who has who has an alternative to the official > mods and which does not require major surgery send me a pic please. > > Many thanks > > Will > > > William Daniell > LONGPORT > +57 310 295 0744 > > > * > =========== tronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:07 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Nose Wheel Bearing Alan, and others: I have an 8 year old aircraft as many of you do, with many small cracks chips and dings in my finish. What is good and what is bad requires inspection. Builders are more aware of the amount of filler on their aircraft and can easily tell if the crack is in the finishing material or structure. Note that gel coat tends not to crack but the filler certainly does. That said, impact damage can show as a spider crack in the finish where the urethane paint fails as well as the gelcoat. Blisters and de-laminations are to be attended to immediately. As a builder I am the manufacturer, and am responsible for my checklists, ops procedures, determining go no go, equipment lists etc. Second hand owners must secure a knowledgeable aviation mechanic to determine the condition of the aircraft. As a pilot, It is my job to do a proper preflight, system and control checks as we did as professional pilots. As a second hand owner, you are not normally a qualified maintainer so asking questions is the right thing to do. Comprehensive lists of wear items on an airplane means some company has done extensive mean time between failure and ISO tests to determine life spans of components. You will NEVER get that in experimental or general aviation. If the mechanic says its OK, and you don't think so, don't fly was our rule as commercial pilots. As an airplane owner you should be aware of ADs, SBs, SIs, and Mods affecting your aircraft to alert your mechanic. Typically I see the following: Cracks around the door sill area created by pushing hard on the sill on entry and exit. (Solved by putting in a diagonal from the sill to the side making a triangle. Cracks in Trigears where our butts sit on the wing forward of the spar. This crack radiates along the spar from the wing fillet to the first rib and is in the filler that is along the transition between the solid spar and flexible skin. This is an area never intended as a heavy duty walkway. (Solved by carbon fiber or glass over the filler from the root rib to the 1st rib to prevent flex cracking.) Cracks around tail tie down not properly reinforced or impact damage from nose high tail dragging landings. Cracks in the rudder lower hinges due to smacking the stops. (The filler is thick here often times and it can't take flexing without cracking.) Cracks at the aileron hinge from full deflection aileron rolls (mild aerobatics). (Inspect after aileron removal for white line crack. If so reinforce, both sides and repaint.) I do not normally see cracks in the wing through hole area. Most new owners abuse the wing sockets thinking they hold the wing during rigging. They are a guide and alignment device, have your assistant hold the wing tip until the pins are in. Do not slide the spar on the raw glass of the hole, it will cut the glass. Install a stainless or phenolic sheet to protect the glass. There should be no cracks in the wing box area or spar strap. Aircraft with hard landing impacts or overstressing will show some skin bending in the wing area between the forward and aft pins and spar hole. If the area is wrinkled or cracked, do a proper hard landing inspection. Buy some touchup paint for sure if you have cracks as you may be grinding some. Most new owners screw up the stabs because they were never taught how to properly put on a stab and take it off. It amazes me that they grab the tip and just pull and wiggle. That's a broken out bearing waiting to happen. Refer to the operators manual drawing on the figure installing the tailplane. Do it vertical, but the hands are in the wrong position. The lower hand should be able to balance the stab vertical and the upper hand is used to fine tune and rotate fore and aft to wiggle the tight tube without any bending on to the torque tube. Slide the stab inboard until the inner bearing lightly contacts the tube and finesse it on the tube as you did the outer. Hold vertical and slide the stab inboard until the skin is just short of the forward drive pin. Rotate the stab short of horizontal and align the pins with the holes. I move to the tip of the stab and by feel and eye can hit my stab holes easily then just a bit of a push to put it on to just contact position, insert your trim tab to the cross tube and then push on the tip to fully seat the pins in the sockets. To remove, tilt the stab TE up, use the thumb against the fin and at the fingers cushioning the root flange with the other hand doing the same on the leading edge and simply push your thumbs against the fuselage. The stab should pop out a bit, ease it back, disconnect the tab and use the same hand positions as installing, while easing it off. Wear and tear are standard in aviation. Get a good mechanic and spend the time / money to investigate, and repair. All the talk about hinge wear means the pilot/builder/mechanic has not lubed the hinges consistently and there is some corrosion wearing the pin/hole which is fair wear and tear. This is not a big problem. Look at a 10 year old Piper and see how much the hinge pins move. Solution is first to look at a new MS20001 series hinge and see how much movement there is (+.007-.010 brand new). There is quite a bit, or down right sloppy movement. Pin tolerance is .003 and has .003 anodizing and hole tolerance is .007 so seeing .013 wiggle after the anodizing wears off would not be uncommon. That is a lot. If you have 50% more than that, I would consider the down time and cut out the hinge and replace. This happens in all airplanes. People normally don't care on a civil airplane, a mechanic is required to check it, but on an experimental, they look for fault. The fault is these items do corrode (pins are steel or stainless, the hinge is aluminum and dissimilar metals corrode) and wear. Hinges are under smallish shear loads and a bit in normal force loads so I worry if I can pull the hinge back and see 1/4 of the hole. Now that's bad. Bushings wear, bearings wear, paint wears, tubing wears. Fuel/oil line hardens (even teflon) and one bend makes a micro crack. Nothing lasts forever. I do a 25 hour progressive inspection of my aircraft at each oil change. I start by reviewing my squawk list. What can I fix. While the oil is draining, I pull and lube the stab tubes, lube all the hinges, the throttle pivots, and door shoot bolts/hinges. I use a syringe with a large non pointed tip, and Mouse Milk light oil. Pop open the aft inspection plates and do a quick look over. Pull the fuel access panels and look for leaks. Look for tracks of coolant, brake fluid or oil. (My 914 lubricates the left gear leg and belly well when it sits quite a while and is nasty, so I clean it up.) Flip up my wheel ts and look over my pads, brake lines, bearings and service the tires. I roll the plane fore and aft and check my bearings are not spinning on the axle. (Customers fly my planes and it gets hard use at times.) At 100 hours or annual, I fly the aircraft and write down everything for the squawk list that is wrong or questionable. Land and wash the plane and go over the aircraft and engine Mod/SB/SI list with a fine eye. Pull the cowl and all the inspection panels off and inspect carefully. Clean the fuel system, change the expendables (plugs, filters, drain fuel, wings and lube every MW bearing, check the torque seal on every bolt, pull the wheels, inspect and repack the wheel bearings while reviewing my personal manufacturers condition inspection checklist I created for my plane. My 100 hour inspection info is on my techniques page, feel free to modify it to your aircrafts particular needs. However, in a second hand aircraft, your mechanic may have other items he is keen on checking for his go no go items. Work with your mechanic and set your inspection interval and go no go wear limits as I have. Everyone's standards are different.. I could care less about a spar cup being sloppy, but am hard over about stab torque tube pins allowing the stabs to move independently of each other over 1/4 inch at the TE or with the TE up and the mass balance just touching, I push up lightly and check if the inner pins allow movement. Cracks should be investigated always. Scrape away the sides and look at the glass. If it's OK fine, or fill sand and paint. At 5 years rip out the hoses, replace wheel bearings, and brake pads, recondition disks, check the calipers for corrosion of the pucks, etc. Look up your engine, airframe parts and make a list of everything you are worried about and increase your inspection time frame if you need to. Then fix it properly. If you fix everything It will be like flying a new plane every day. If you choose to do the minimum amount of maintenance, the plane will deliver the minimum. I still haven't added options/upgrades I have wanted from 8 years ago. It seems working on clients aircraft defeats my zest for experimentation on my own. Enjoy your aircraft. Regards, Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: Alan Carter Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 2:42 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Nose Wheel Bearing Hi Bud, Change of topic, I am not a builder but I look closely how things are made, and I will say I think I could have made a better job of some design components. I have 25000 hour and are not going to damage anyone's aeroplane by giving it a little wiggle, which I have found a number of common wear and tear, just little things like the wear In the stablator hinges, and plastic cups on the control arm. seems to wear more on the port side. Wish some one produced a list of common wear in components one could check. However I have also noticed on a few planes a small hair line crack some Europa's have it on both sides and some one only one side, running up from the corner of the fusalarge of wear the spare slides into the fuselage, I would say it just a crack in the jell coat and of no structural relevants caused by flexing of the skin, Have you come across this before. Regards Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440521#440521 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.