Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:12 AM - Re: FWF Seal (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
2. 07:16 AM - Re: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff (Brian Davies)
3. 07:20 AM - Re: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff (Bud Yerly)
4. 09:38 AM - Italian Trip (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
5. 11:04 AM - Re: FWF Seal (david park)
6. 11:18 AM - Re: FWF Seal (spcialeffects)
7. 01:27 PM - Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff (Justin Kennedy)
8. 02:27 PM - Re: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff (Bob Harrison)
Message 1
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If you are just looking for a sealant for holes in the firewall carrying
cables or hoses, go to a plumbers merchant and get a heat resistant
silicone, which is used to seal around boiler flues. Resistant to temps
over 250C I believe.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2015-05-14 20:37, spcialeffects wrote:
>
> Hi all. Could someone please tell me what this sealing material is called and
possibly where i might buy some, Many thanks
> http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=79612 [1]
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442108#442108 [2]
>
Links:
------
[1] http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=79612
[2] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442108#442108
[3] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[4] http://forums.matronics.com
[5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 2
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Subject: | Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff |
Hi Richard,
I am not sure I understand what you intend to do regarding sealing. The
large diameter pitch control tube passes through the area you are talking
about and would require some form of bellows to seal and allow movement- Or
have I misunderstood?
Regards
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Collings
Sent: 14 May 2015 20:21
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff
--> <rcollings@talktalk.net>
Hi Gilles & Brian
Watching your email thread I would like to add my 2 pennies, I was aware
that there was a problem with exhaust gasses entering the cabin through the
flap slots on each side of the fuselage so I made a bulk head from the rear
of the baggage bay floor to the floor of the aircraft [in 2 pieces] I am
going to seal them air tight with foam rubber so that under the baggage bay
is air tight to the cabin.
I have had only one problem associated with engine smells from the start and
that is a smell of fuel when I switch on the electric fuel pump. Fuel
pressure remain the same with fuel pump no or off. No leaks found so far its
very strange.
Regards
Richard
G-CGZV Tri-gear 912ul 115hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Davies
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 10:46 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff
--> <brian.davies@clara.co.uk>
Hi Gilles,
I think leather bellows is probably the way to go. I have been chasing
higher than normal CO levels on my aircraft, hence the research into
airflows from the engine compartment. I have been looking at bellows around
the pitch tube behind the baggage bay to close off the airflow through the
flap slots and forward through the tunnel. I am ,however, struggling to
understand why I should have a problem on my aircraft when others are not
reporting problems.
The trouble with measuring CO with a digital sensor is that once you know
the reading you feel you should do something about it, even if it is within
limits. I am getting 11 - 20 ppm in cruise and up to 35ppm on approach with
the flaps down, with a normal limit of 50ppm for GA aircraft but zero would
be better!
Regards
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GTH
Sent: 12 May 2015 23:31
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff
Brian,
Thank you for the information.
> I know it is good aero practice to have a gas tight FWL but on the
> Europa, with rudder cables passing through it, it is actually
> impossible
to achieve.
I would have thought that it could be easily addressed with leather bellows,
like on vintage aircraft.
> Also the external airflow from the engine area can attach to the lower
> fuselage and enter the flap slots.
This one beats me, but when there is a will there is a way...
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff |
Brian and Gilles,
Great discussion topic.
I had a bit of a problem in 12AY. I was normally asphyxiated by 5000 feet
on a climb out by exhaust smell.
I foolishly placed my NACA duct about half way up the port side.
The exhaust from my stack on the 914 followed the prop wash and wing up-wash
right into the duct. NASTY. OK in cruise, but went directly into the vent
on climb out.
Moved to the Ultimate Ventilators in the windscreen and have been problem
free.
Exhaust/CO caused me to seal the NACA, wing fillet on the port side tightly,
and of course the firewall.
Firewall seals were easy using RTV or silicone sealant. Rudders were not
the problem. Grease the tubes and then RTV the small gap. Wait till dry
and move the rudders and it was done.
Mono's are a particular problem. Bellows work well to seal the rudder cable
holes. Our flat firewall has much smaller cable holes and can be sealed by
riveting on a piece of Red silicone cowl seal and make a slit in it. Not
perfect but simple and effective... The mono tends to allow air into the
cockpit through the handles. Tough to seal, but for winter comfort,
necessary.
Fuel smell haunted me for the first year or so.
I got rid of the rubber fuel inlet hose, and more importantly sealed the
fuel tank to filler neck with just a bit of ProSeal.
The fuel sender gasket would smell of fuel and leak when filled to the neck
just a bit. Again, proper sealing fixed that.
Changing to R14 or proper VOC compliant fuel line took care of that
lingering smell caused by the ethanol car fuel and additives.
Pitty no one I know produces a braded fuel hose which is ethanol fuel smell
(VOC) compliant for the mono tunnel.
Teflon hose works, but gets brittle and cracks. Nothing is perfect.
Common fuel smell/ leaks:
Overflowing carb float bowls which were not tested properly.
Improperly seated carb bowls.
Drain lines venting into the mono hole which goes directly to the cockpit it
seams.
Fuel tank fittings over or under tightened.
Fuel tank sender gaskets.
Fuel tank inlet hose and vent line leaks.
Sealing techniques for the CO:
Exhaust leaks in the 912S on the XS exhaust muffler are terrible. I am
trying a high temp sealant for the ball joints in the muffler to pipe
connection. We'll know more in a couple weeks.
(Look for soot which is brown streaks running up the exhaust pipes. Often
these jets of gas are directly hitting the carbs.)
Exhaust pipe to head seals leaking. (Use lapping compound and rotate the
pipe side to side until a seal is achieved at the proper pipe angle.)
The 914 exhaust seems trouble free.
Exhaust muffler pipe cowl exit placement can't be changed much, but the
longer the pipe the better it seems.
Keep air vents far forward, and near the door flange line to prevent port
side exhaust smell from entering the vent.
On the mono, try to seal up the firewall and keep the drains well off to the
side of the cowl exit near the foot well.
Seal cockpit holes through the firewall and mono tunnel lever gaps with
silicone or similar to seal your tunnel from the cockpit.
Wing gap seals need to be filled as well as possible. I use a window/door
tape type seal that has a rubber coating and compresses well to seal the
gap.
With all the above, finally have no fuel/exhaust smells or CO problems.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
-----Original Message-----
From: GTH
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff
Le 13/05/2015 11:46, Brian Davies a crit :
> <brian.davies@clara.co.uk>
>
>
> The trouble with measuring CO with a digital sensor is that once you know
> the reading you feel you should do something about it, even if it is
> within
> limits.
Hi Brian,
So true^^!
Also the higher the number of parameters measured, the higher the amount
of head scratching...
Best regards
Message 4
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I will shortly be closing the booking for the club Italian trip, so
anyone interested who has not already been in contact should please do
so ASAP.
Regards, David Joyce, Europa Club Trips Organiser
Message 5
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Demon Tweeks have it
Dave G-LDVO
On 14 May 2015, at 21:13, Alan Burrill <alanb@dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
> Looks like;
>
> Silicone Baffle Seal
>
>
> here: http://www.lasaero.com/site/products/article?id=T01VKIAZ1
>
> alan
> On 14 May 2015, at 20:37, spcialeffects <spcialeffects@aol.com> wrote:
>
<spcialeffects@aol.com>
>>
>> Hi all. Could someone please tell me what this sealing material is
called and possibly where i might buy some, Many thanks
>> http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=79612
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442108#442108
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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Thanks for the replies. Burrilla- it certainly looks like the stuff. Is it fire
proof?
David- Yes ive already got my 3M fire sealent for industrial boilers which expands
the hotter it gets (was advised by ivor phillips on that one) But i liked
the look of the installation in the link as i too am lucky enough to have the
singleton fire wall which i am fitting instead of the alloy one, however the holes
cut into it to get over the landing gear mounting frame are quite big and
once over the mounting lugs i think this looks neater rather than filling it
with the 3M mastic stuff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442142#442142
Message 7
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Subject: | Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff |
HI Guys,
I am a bit reluctant to stick my neck out but I have a possible reason and
solution for your smelly climbs.
When my Europa was about 2 years old, 9 years now, We had the same problem
with fuel smell after take-off and came to a conclusion which has not been
mentioned in the discussions on this subject. So here goes.
We think it depends on which side you fuel tank vent is on. In this exampl
e the vent is in the usual place on the Starboard side top front corner of
the tank. So as you climb out into a right hand circuit the right wing is
going to be lower than the left for long periods. The fuel in the tank sl
urps to the right. The result is a pocket of air trapped on the upper left
side of the tank. The size of the pocket of air is dependent on how full th
e tank is at the time. As the plane climbs the pressure drops and the pock
et of air expands. Assuming the fuel is covering the actual fuel vent on th
e right then there is nowhere for the fuel to go other than up the vent and
pour over the back of the fuselage. I think that it is this that creates t
he smell of fuel that only lasts a short time. We experienced this phenomen
on with ours and noticed there was no smell if the tanks were less than abo
ut 1/2 full.
Also trying to reproduce the problem was easy. After take-off with nearly f
ull tanks I flew a long gently curved climb to the right which promptly obl
iged with a strong fuel smell. As a result we put in an additional vent on
the other side of the tank.
There have been no fuel smells in the climb since.
Those with this smell could try this and then do it again with 1/2 tanks.
Also level up in the climb out every now and then to release the air to the
vent on the right and see if it stops it.
Obviously your vents may be different but you can apply the theory.
There are numerous potential sites for a fuel leak but when it is only in t
he climb it has got to be climb related. I notice everyone is most specific
about it happening in the climb.
I may be talking bunk but it is surely worth discussion J.
Fly safe
Justin Kennedy
G-ZTED Europa Mono 912S Airmaster Prop
East of Scotland Strut
Message 8
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Subject: | Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff |
Further to Justin's information below , I have never had fuel smells (other
than the usual porous filler suspicions!)but have a different arrangement
for venting in that my vent goes up to the ceiling from the starboard side
of the tank to a collection bottle aligned to aim down back to the tank
filler ( so that it will drain back to tank) but with an overflow connection
from the back end of the bottle across the ceiling and down the port side to
exit at the port flap hinge slot in the floor. To my knowledge there has
never been any fuel lost out the vent or even when overfilling the main
tank.
Regards to all.
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Justin Kennedy
Sent: 15 May 2015 21:26
Subject: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff
HI Guys,
I am a bit reluctant to stick my neck out but I have a possible reason and
solution for your smelly climbs.
When my Europa was about 2 years old, 9 years now, We had the same problem
with fuel smell after take-off and came to a conclusion which has not been
mentioned in the discussions on this subject. So here goes.
We think it depends on which side you fuel tank vent is on. In this example
the vent is in the usual place on the Starboard side top front corner of
the tank. So as you climb out into a right hand circuit the right wing is
going to be lower than the left for long periods. The fuel in the tank
slurps to the right. The result is a pocket of air trapped on the upper left
side of the tank. The size of the pocket of air is dependent on how full the
tank is at the time. As the plane climbs the pressure drops and the pocket
of air expands. Assuming the fuel is covering the actual fuel vent on the
right then there is nowhere for the fuel to go other than up the vent and
pour over the back of the fuselage. I think that it is this that creates the
smell of fuel that only lasts a short time. We experienced this phenomenon
with ours and noticed there was no smell if the tanks were less than about
1/2 full.
Also trying to reproduce the problem was easy. After take-off with nearly
full tanks I flew a long gently curved climb to the right which promptly
obliged with a strong fuel smell. As a result we put in an additional vent
on the other side of the tank.
There have been no fuel smells in the climb since.
Those with this smell could try this and then do it again with 1/2 tanks.
Also level up in the climb out every now and then to release the air to the
vent on the right and see if it stops it.
Obviously your vents may be different but you can apply the theory.
There are numerous potential sites for a fuel leak but when it is only in
the climb it has got to be climb related. I notice everyone is most specific
about it happening in the climb.
I may be talking bunk but it is surely worth discussion J.
Fly safe
Justin Kennedy
G-ZTED Europa Mono 912S Airmaster Prop
East of Scotland Strut
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