---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/15/15: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:12 AM - Re: FWF Seal (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 2. 07:16 AM - Re: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff (Brian Davies) 3. 07:20 AM - Re: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff (Bud Yerly) 4. 09:38 AM - Italian Trip (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 5. 11:04 AM - Re: FWF Seal (david park) 6. 11:18 AM - Re: FWF Seal (spcialeffects) 7. 01:27 PM - Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff (Justin Kennedy) 8. 02:27 PM - Re: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff (Bob Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:07 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: FWF Seal If you are just looking for a sealant for holes in the firewall carrying cables or hoses, go to a plumbers merchant and get a heat resistant silicone, which is used to seal around boiler flues. Resistant to temps over 250C I believe. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2015-05-14 20:37, spcialeffects wrote: > > Hi all. Could someone please tell me what this sealing material is called and possibly where i might buy some, Many thanks > http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=79612 [1] > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442108#442108 [2] > Links: ------ [1] http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=79612 [2] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442108#442108 [3] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [4] http://forums.matronics.com [5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:25 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff Hi Richard, I am not sure I understand what you intend to do regarding sealing. The large diameter pitch control tube passes through the area you are talking about and would require some form of bellows to seal and allow movement- Or have I misunderstood? Regards Brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Collings Sent: 14 May 2015 20:21 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff --> Hi Gilles & Brian Watching your email thread I would like to add my 2 pennies, I was aware that there was a problem with exhaust gasses entering the cabin through the flap slots on each side of the fuselage so I made a bulk head from the rear of the baggage bay floor to the floor of the aircraft [in 2 pieces] I am going to seal them air tight with foam rubber so that under the baggage bay is air tight to the cabin. I have had only one problem associated with engine smells from the start and that is a smell of fuel when I switch on the electric fuel pump. Fuel pressure remain the same with fuel pump no or off. No leaks found so far its very strange. Regards Richard G-CGZV Tri-gear 912ul 115hrs -----Original Message----- From: Brian Davies Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 10:46 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff --> Hi Gilles, I think leather bellows is probably the way to go. I have been chasing higher than normal CO levels on my aircraft, hence the research into airflows from the engine compartment. I have been looking at bellows around the pitch tube behind the baggage bay to close off the airflow through the flap slots and forward through the tunnel. I am ,however, struggling to understand why I should have a problem on my aircraft when others are not reporting problems. The trouble with measuring CO with a digital sensor is that once you know the reading you feel you should do something about it, even if it is within limits. I am getting 11 - 20 ppm in cruise and up to 35ppm on approach with the flaps down, with a normal limit of 50ppm for GA aircraft but zero would be better! Regards Brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GTH Sent: 12 May 2015 23:31 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff Brian, Thank you for the information. > I know it is good aero practice to have a gas tight FWL but on the > Europa, with rudder cables passing through it, it is actually > impossible to achieve. I would have thought that it could be easily addressed with leather bellows, like on vintage aircraft. > Also the external airflow from the engine area can attach to the lower > fuselage and enter the flap slots. This one beats me, but when there is a will there is a way... Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:46 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff Brian and Gilles, Great discussion topic. I had a bit of a problem in 12AY. I was normally asphyxiated by 5000 feet on a climb out by exhaust smell. I foolishly placed my NACA duct about half way up the port side. The exhaust from my stack on the 914 followed the prop wash and wing up-wash right into the duct. NASTY. OK in cruise, but went directly into the vent on climb out. Moved to the Ultimate Ventilators in the windscreen and have been problem free. Exhaust/CO caused me to seal the NACA, wing fillet on the port side tightly, and of course the firewall. Firewall seals were easy using RTV or silicone sealant. Rudders were not the problem. Grease the tubes and then RTV the small gap. Wait till dry and move the rudders and it was done. Mono's are a particular problem. Bellows work well to seal the rudder cable holes. Our flat firewall has much smaller cable holes and can be sealed by riveting on a piece of Red silicone cowl seal and make a slit in it. Not perfect but simple and effective... The mono tends to allow air into the cockpit through the handles. Tough to seal, but for winter comfort, necessary. Fuel smell haunted me for the first year or so. I got rid of the rubber fuel inlet hose, and more importantly sealed the fuel tank to filler neck with just a bit of ProSeal. The fuel sender gasket would smell of fuel and leak when filled to the neck just a bit. Again, proper sealing fixed that. Changing to R14 or proper VOC compliant fuel line took care of that lingering smell caused by the ethanol car fuel and additives. Pitty no one I know produces a braded fuel hose which is ethanol fuel smell (VOC) compliant for the mono tunnel. Teflon hose works, but gets brittle and cracks. Nothing is perfect. Common fuel smell/ leaks: Overflowing carb float bowls which were not tested properly. Improperly seated carb bowls. Drain lines venting into the mono hole which goes directly to the cockpit it seams. Fuel tank fittings over or under tightened. Fuel tank sender gaskets. Fuel tank inlet hose and vent line leaks. Sealing techniques for the CO: Exhaust leaks in the 912S on the XS exhaust muffler are terrible. I am trying a high temp sealant for the ball joints in the muffler to pipe connection. We'll know more in a couple weeks. (Look for soot which is brown streaks running up the exhaust pipes. Often these jets of gas are directly hitting the carbs.) Exhaust pipe to head seals leaking. (Use lapping compound and rotate the pipe side to side until a seal is achieved at the proper pipe angle.) The 914 exhaust seems trouble free. Exhaust muffler pipe cowl exit placement can't be changed much, but the longer the pipe the better it seems. Keep air vents far forward, and near the door flange line to prevent port side exhaust smell from entering the vent. On the mono, try to seal up the firewall and keep the drains well off to the side of the cowl exit near the foot well. Seal cockpit holes through the firewall and mono tunnel lever gaps with silicone or similar to seal your tunnel from the cockpit. Wing gap seals need to be filled as well as possible. I use a window/door tape type seal that has a rubber coating and compresses well to seal the gap. With all the above, finally have no fuel/exhaust smells or CO problems. Regards, Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: GTH Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:35 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff Le 13/05/2015 11:46, Brian Davies a crit : > > > > The trouble with measuring CO with a digital sensor is that once you know > the reading you feel you should do something about it, even if it is > within > limits. Hi Brian, So true^^! Also the higher the number of parameters measured, the higher the amount of head scratching... Best regards ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:37 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Europa-List: Italian Trip I will shortly be closing the booking for the club Italian trip, so anyone interested who has not already been in contact should please do so ASAP. Regards, David Joyce, Europa Club Trips Organiser ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:11 AM PST US From: david park Subject: Re: Europa-List: FWF Seal Demon Tweeks have it Dave G-LDVO On 14 May 2015, at 21:13, Alan Burrill wrote: > Looks like; > > Silicone Baffle Seal > > > here: http://www.lasaero.com/site/products/article?id=T01VKIAZ1 > > alan > On 14 May 2015, at 20:37, spcialeffects wrote: > >> >> Hi all. Could someone please tell me what this sealing material is called and possibly where i might buy some, Many thanks >> http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=79612 >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442108#442108 >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:18:57 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: FWF Seal From: "spcialeffects" Thanks for the replies. Burrilla- it certainly looks like the stuff. Is it fire proof? David- Yes ive already got my 3M fire sealent for industrial boilers which expands the hotter it gets (was advised by ivor phillips on that one) But i liked the look of the installation in the link as i too am lucky enough to have the singleton fire wall which i am fitting instead of the alloy one, however the holes cut into it to get over the landing gear mounting frame are quite big and once over the mounting lugs i think this looks neater rather than filling it with the 3M mastic stuff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442142#442142 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:53 PM PST US From: Justin Kennedy Subject: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff HI Guys, I am a bit reluctant to stick my neck out but I have a possible reason and solution for your smelly climbs. When my Europa was about 2 years old, 9 years now, We had the same problem with fuel smell after take-off and came to a conclusion which has not been mentioned in the discussions on this subject. So here goes. We think it depends on which side you fuel tank vent is on. In this exampl e the vent is in the usual place on the Starboard side top front corner of the tank. So as you climb out into a right hand circuit the right wing is going to be lower than the left for long periods. The fuel in the tank sl urps to the right. The result is a pocket of air trapped on the upper left side of the tank. The size of the pocket of air is dependent on how full th e tank is at the time. As the plane climbs the pressure drops and the pock et of air expands. Assuming the fuel is covering the actual fuel vent on th e right then there is nowhere for the fuel to go other than up the vent and pour over the back of the fuselage. I think that it is this that creates t he smell of fuel that only lasts a short time. We experienced this phenomen on with ours and noticed there was no smell if the tanks were less than abo ut 1/2 full. Also trying to reproduce the problem was easy. After take-off with nearly f ull tanks I flew a long gently curved climb to the right which promptly obl iged with a strong fuel smell. As a result we put in an additional vent on the other side of the tank. There have been no fuel smells in the climb since. Those with this smell could try this and then do it again with 1/2 tanks. Also level up in the climb out every now and then to release the air to the vent on the right and see if it stops it. Obviously your vents may be different but you can apply the theory. There are numerous potential sites for a fuel leak but when it is only in t he climb it has got to be climb related. I notice everyone is most specific about it happening in the climb. I may be talking bunk but it is surely worth discussion J. Fly safe Justin Kennedy G-ZTED Europa Mono 912S Airmaster Prop East of Scotland Strut ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:02 PM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff Further to Justin's information below , I have never had fuel smells (other than the usual porous filler suspicions!)but have a different arrangement for venting in that my vent goes up to the ceiling from the starboard side of the tank to a collection bottle aligned to aim down back to the tank filler ( so that it will drain back to tank) but with an overflow connection from the back end of the bottle across the ceiling and down the port side to exit at the port flap hinge slot in the floor. To my knowledge there has never been any fuel lost out the vent or even when overfilling the main tank. Regards to all. Bob Harrison. G-PTAG From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Justin Kennedy Sent: 15 May 2015 21:26 Subject: Europa-List: Smell of petrol in the cocpit just after takeoff HI Guys, I am a bit reluctant to stick my neck out but I have a possible reason and solution for your smelly climbs. When my Europa was about 2 years old, 9 years now, We had the same problem with fuel smell after take-off and came to a conclusion which has not been mentioned in the discussions on this subject. So here goes. We think it depends on which side you fuel tank vent is on. In this example the vent is in the usual place on the Starboard side top front corner of the tank. So as you climb out into a right hand circuit the right wing is going to be lower than the left for long periods. The fuel in the tank slurps to the right. The result is a pocket of air trapped on the upper left side of the tank. The size of the pocket of air is dependent on how full the tank is at the time. As the plane climbs the pressure drops and the pocket of air expands. Assuming the fuel is covering the actual fuel vent on the right then there is nowhere for the fuel to go other than up the vent and pour over the back of the fuselage. I think that it is this that creates the smell of fuel that only lasts a short time. We experienced this phenomenon with ours and noticed there was no smell if the tanks were less than about 1/2 full. Also trying to reproduce the problem was easy. After take-off with nearly full tanks I flew a long gently curved climb to the right which promptly obliged with a strong fuel smell. As a result we put in an additional vent on the other side of the tank. There have been no fuel smells in the climb since. Those with this smell could try this and then do it again with 1/2 tanks. Also level up in the climb out every now and then to release the air to the vent on the right and see if it stops it. Obviously your vents may be different but you can apply the theory. There are numerous potential sites for a fuel leak but when it is only in the climb it has got to be climb related. I notice everyone is most specific about it happening in the climb. I may be talking bunk but it is surely worth discussion J. Fly safe Justin Kennedy G-ZTED Europa Mono 912S Airmaster Prop East of Scotland Strut ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.