---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/30/15: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:58 AM - MAUW Increase (Nigel Graham) 2. 04:44 AM - Re: MAUW Increase (Nigel Graham) 3. 05:32 AM - Re: MAUW Increase (jonathanmilbank) 4. 07:56 AM - Re: MAUW Increase (spcialeffects) 5. 09:45 AM - Re: MAUW Increase (jonathanmilbank) 6. 12:06 PM - Re: Re: MAUW Increase (Robert Borger) 7. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: MAUW Increase (Timward) 8. 03:19 PM - Re: MAUW Increase (pestar) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:15 AM PST US From: Nigel Graham Subject: Europa-List: MAUW Increase Steve, FYI I have just received a reply from John Tempest at the LAA regarding my Callisto mod submission. Reproduced below is his (predictably conservative) response to the MAUW increase proposal. I await with eager anticipation, his response to your mod! Nigel /Initial comments are (for discussion):/// /1.//The MTOW of 1370 lb for the Europa was based on a number of analysis reports and load tests and was limited by a number of issues, for example, required composite special factors, stresses on the wing root pins, and no doubt other issues, and it is therefore going to require a considerable amount of thought to give any additional weight increase over this figure, if indeed it is possible at all. The use of in-service experience to justify operating at weights higher that the designers intentions is fraught with problems and at the moment this is a major hurdle. I am not sure how remaining at 1370 lb will affect the practicality of your aircraft./ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:05 AM PST US From: Nigel Graham Subject: Re: Europa-List: MAUW Increase Sorry chaps, Finger trouble! This was supposed to go to Steve Pitt . But at least you UK flyers now know that we are working on a MTOW upgrade proposal for the Europa. Nigel On 30/05/2015 09:56, Nigel Graham wrote: > Steve, > > FYI > > I have just received a reply from John Tempest at the LAA regarding my > Callisto mod submission. > Reproduced below is his (predictably conservative) response to the > MAUW increase proposal. > I await with eager anticipation, his response to your mod! > > Nigel > > /Initial comments are (for discussion):/// > > /1.//The MTOW of 1370 lb for the Europa was based on a number of > analysis reports and load tests and was limited by a number of issues, > for example, required composite special factors, stresses on the wing > root pins, and no doubt other issues, and it is therefore going to > require a considerable amount of thought to give any additional weight > increase over this figure, if indeed it is possible at all. The use of > in-service experience to justify operating at weights higher that the > designers intentions is fraught with problems and at the moment this > is a major hurdle. I am not sure how remaining at 1370 lb will affect > the practicality of your aircraft./ > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:20 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: MAUW Increase From: "jonathanmilbank" Well my knee-jerk response is that whatever our American cousins are using for the max.mass of their Europa fleet is what we should be allowed, assuming that they haven't suffered mishaps due to overloading and aren't seeing evidence of structural failures developing. An increase to 1420 lbs (645 kg) seems reasonable to me, for Europas with 100hp or more powerful engines and/or VP propellers. In my former commercial career I saw one 19 pax seat aircraft given a 7.8% increase of max.mass, without any structural strengthening. Just the performance graphs were altered to show things like increased take-off distance and reject area requirements and of course reduced single engine climb rates. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442800#442800 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:39 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: MAUW Increase From: "spcialeffects" >From what Iv read and seen on the Internet the Americans operate their europa's at 1450lbs which in Church of England is another 5 and a half stone! A light passenger! However in order to fly at thet weight they have to pre load their planes (wings) with weight Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442806#442806 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:23 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: MAUW Increase From: "jonathanmilbank" Well, here's a bit more subjective waffling from me then! I don't think that most Europae would need that much of an increase. How about this? Most of us would like the capability to take off with two 15 stone (210 lbs to our USA cousins, 95,25 kg to our EU neighbours) blokes and a full tank 110 lbs, plus a bit of baggage e.g. 10 lbs. That leaves 880 lbs which might be a fairly representative average empty weight (mass for EU neighbours) across the fleet. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442810#442810 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: MAUW Increase From: Robert Borger Here in the USA, because we are the manufacturer of the aircraft, we may set some of the specs of our aircraft. I set my max gross weight to be 1450 lbs as suggested. I also have restricted the CG range to 59-61.5 for weight over 1370 lbs. as suggested. There was no need to do any further testing or weighting of the wings. I find that, at max gross weight, the aircraft still climbs at almost 1000 fpm to pattern altitude of 1500 ft. Cruise climb at 100 kts is over 500 fpm. If stall speed was increased, it isnt enough to see in the ASI at those low speeds. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On May 30, 2015, at 9:55 AM, spcialeffects wrote: > From what Iv read and seen on the Internet the Americans operate their europa's at 1450lbs which in Church of England is another 5 and a half stone! A light passenger! However in order to fly at thet weight they have to pre load their planes (wings) with weight ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:11 PM PST US From: Timward Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: MAUW Increase While flying the 747-400 our MAUW was changed from 398 tones to 405 tones. I asked the Technical skipper what we had to do to qualify for that increase, difference tyres, undercarriage oleos, tweak up the engine power etc. Answer: NOTHING, except pay Boeing $1,000,000 per aircraft to be certified! So be it. Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton, Christchurch, 8052 New Zealand. ward.t@xtra.co.nz Ph 64 3 3515166 Mob 0210640221 > On 31/05/2015, at 12:31 am, jonathanmilbank wrote: > > > Well my knee-jerk response is that whatever our American cousins are using for the max.mass of their Europa fleet is what we should be allowed, assuming that they haven't suffered mishaps due to overloading and aren't seeing evidence of structural failures developing. > An increase to 1420 lbs (645 kg) seems reasonable to me, for Europas with 100hp or more powerful engines and/or VP propellers. > In my former commercial career I saw one 19 pax seat aircraft given a 7.8% increase of max.mass, without any structural strengthening. Just the performance graphs were altered to show things like increased take-off distance and reject area requirements and of course reduced single engine climb rates. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442800#442800 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:19:25 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: MAUW Increase From: "pestar" Tim I did not know that you were that heavy that Air New Zealand had to increase the 747-400 MAUW when you had to fly it. Cheers Peter [Laughing] -------- Peter Armstrong Auckland, New Zealand DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me :) ). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442825#442825 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.