---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/19/15: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:01 AM - Re: Airmaster Whirlwind blades (Steven Pitt) 2. 07:58 AM - Re: Airmaster Whirlwind blades (ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net) 3. 08:37 AM - making a hole in the fuselage floor (Rowland Carson) 4. 09:39 AM - Re: making a hole in the fuselage floor (Fred Klein) 5. 09:39 AM - Re: making a hole in the fuselage floor (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 6. 09:49 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__making_a_hole_in_the_fuselage_floor? (philip george) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:01:05 AM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airmaster Whirlwind blades Great response Bud. Thanks for the update - we have another Europa Flyer due out in early December so some detailed flight testing of the 3 blades would be useful. Regards Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bud Yerly" Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 10:19 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airmaster Whirlwind blades > Richard, > I've been able to test the WhirlWind (WW) blades on my Europa with 914 for > the last six months. I find them an excellent fit for the AP332 since the > blades can be swapped out easily. > That said, a new ferrule had to be made to install the WW blades into the > 332 hub. No direct cheap swap out I'm afraid. > > Performance wise, it is slightly better and lighter than the wide chord > Warp > Drive (WD). If you have the narrow chord WD blades they are a whole lot > better. > > We are limited in the Europa to 64 inches diameter and of course to the > slow > turning Rotax. With only a cruise RPM of 2050 prop RPM and 2500 Climb RPM > and a high speed airplane with a wide performance range we don't see a > large > change in performance between the blades. No amount of twist can > compensate > for slow prop speed on a geared engine. Propellers fly on torque so there > is just so much you can do. > > I've tested the two blade, three blade WD, Sensenich (Sen) and WW blades. > Performance at nominal cruise up to 7500 feet is not a lot different > between > the three (3-8 knots). The two blade Sen is lighter (19 pounds) and > noisier. The three blade WD is heavy at 26 pounds and the WW is slightly > lighter and spins faster on start. > > Data for the three indicate the WW climbs slightly better (50 fpm) and is > faster than the WD at 7500-10,000 feet by about 5-6 knots at 5000/31 and > about equal at the lower altitudes and lower RPMs. The two blade > Sensenich > is slightly slower than the WW (2-3 knots) but equal in climb to the WW > three blade, but it is > noisier. I do like the two blade as it is easier to remove the cowl on a > trigear aircraft with it installed. > > The wide chord WD is brutally strong, wears like iron and will mow the > grass > on most fields without requiring any cleanup. Chips can be cared for with > epoxy. Typically the WD will go many years before needing blade service. > Each blade costs about $100 US for a complete refurbishment. Then its > good > for another ten years. The finish is flat paint and the nickel tape is > flat > also, so it's not a classy looking blade with its square tips. The > tapered > blades lower the inertial forces during start and I have said "The tapered > blades are > only good for converting fuel into noise as far as I'm concerned", but > that > is unfair. They are just slow. > > Both the Sensenich and WW have nickel leading edges but have a clear coat > over it so the clear coat tends to wear off in rain and sand (what we have > mostly in Florida). It makes the prop look nasty after a year of hard > flying without > touchup. Of course both of these blades are hollow core (Sensenich) or > foam > (WW) so care must be taken if damage is evident. > > I must admit my favorite for looks and performance is the WW. My favorite > for engine maintenance and CG is the Sensenich, and if I was operating off > of an unimproved field full of rocks, I'd take the performance hit and fly > the WD. > > Jim Butcher is going to test the WW blades against his WD blades on his > 914 > mono. Then we will > compare notes and publish the data formally. > > I've attached a document from my website on propeller testing techniques > on > the Europa. > Take a look at the techniques page and down load the pdf. > > It always amazes me that folks do not do extensive testing of their > aircraft. I realize that when built straight, this aircraft is nearly > bullet proof so why bother. > That said, it is gratifying to do a 2000 mile cross country in your bird > and > only have to put gas in and be able to look at the range you need and > simply > adjust the throttle > to get the desired miles per gallon necessary for the winds to flight > plan. > This is possible because you have iron clad data on your > aircraft/engine/propeller you personally have tested. > > I hope this helps. > > Best Regards, > Bud Yerly > Custom Flight Creations. > -----Original Message----- > From: Davids > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:30 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airmaster Whirlwind blades > > > Richard I am looking at this at the moment but need some support from the > community > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 14 Oct 2015, at 20:12, Richard Holder >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi All >> >> Has anyone in the UK tried the new Whirlwind blades to fit the Airmaster >> hub ? Great things are promised. >> >> I just don't want to be the first to try them as the paperwork puts me >> off. >> >> If someone has done it already please let me know. >> >> Thanks >> >> Richard Holder >> G-OWWW >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airmaster Whirlwind blades From: ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net Useful and interesting comparison, and seems to confirm Sensenic h's view of their own propeller, which they quoted to me: "......it is not for fast aircraft like the Europa". But the n nor is the WD (as the tests also confirm)!=0A?=0ADunca n McF.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0A Sent: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 22:36=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Airm aster Whirlwind blades=0A=0ARichard,?=0AI've been able to t est the WhirlWind (WW) blades on my Europa with 914 for?=0A the last six months. I find them an excellent fit for the AP332 since the?=0Ablades can be swapped out easily.?=0AThat said, a new ferrule had to be made to install the WW blades into the?=0A332 hub. No direct cheap swap out I'm afraid.?=0A?=0APerformance wise, it is slightly better and l ighter than the wide chord Warp?=0ADrive (WD). If you have the narrow chord WD blades they are a whole lot?=0Abetter.? =0A?=0AWe are limited in the Europa to 64 inches diamete r and of course to the slow?=0Aturning Rotax. With only a cruise RPM of 2050 prop RPM and 2500 Climb RPM?=0Aand a high speed airplane with a wide performance range we don't see a large?=0Achange in performance between the blades. N o amount of twist can compensate?=0Afor slow prop speed on a geared engine. Propellers fly on torque so there is just so much you can do.?=0A?=0AI've tested the two blade, th ree blade WD, Sensenich (Sen) and WW blades.?=0APerformance a t nominal cruise up to 7500 feet is not a lot different between?=0Athe three (3-8 knots). The two blade Sen is ligh ter (19 pounds) and?=0Anoisier. The three blade WD is heavy at 26 pounds and the WW is slightly?=0Alighter and spins faster on start.?=0A?=0AData for the three indicate the WW climbs slightly better (50 fpm) and is?=0Afaster than th e WD at 7500-10,000 feet by about 5-6 knots at 5000/31 and ?=0Aabout equal at the lower altitudes and lower RPMs. The two blade Sensenich?=0Ais slightly slower than the WW (2-3 knots) but equal in climb to the WW three blade, but it is?=0Anoisier. I do like the two blade as it is easier to remove the cowl on a?=0Atrigear aircraft with it install ed.?=0A?=0AThe wide chord WD is brutally strong, wears lik e iron and will mow the grass?=0Aon most fields without r equiring any cleanup. Chips can be cared for with?=0Aepoxy. Typically the WD will go many years before needing blade ser vice.?=0AEach blade costs about $100 US for a complete refu rbishment. Then its good?=0Afor another ten years. The finish is flat paint and the nickel tape is flat?=0Aalso, so it's not a classy looking blade with its square tips. The tapered?=0Ablades lower the inertial forces during start and I have said "The tapered blades are?=0Aonly good for conver ting fuel into noise as far as I'm concerned", but that?=0A is unfair. They are just slow.?=0A?=0ABoth the Sensenich a nd WW have nickel leading edges but have a clear coat?=0A over it so the clear coat tends to wear off in rain and sand (what we have?=0Amostly in Florida). It makes the prop look nasty after a year of hard flying without?=0Atouchup. Of course both of these blades are hollow core (Sensenich) or foam?=0A(WW) so care must be taken if damage is eviden t.?=0A?=0AI must admit my favorite for looks and performan ce is the WW. My favorite?=0Afor engine maintenance and CG is the Sensenich, and if I was operating off?=0Aof an uni mproved field full of rocks, I'd take the performance hit an d fly?=0Athe WD.?=0A?=0AJim Butcher is going to test th e WW blades against his WD blades on his 914 mono. Then we will?=0Acompare notes and publish the data formally.?=0A? =0AI've attached a document from my website on propeller te sting techniques on the Europa.?=0ATake a look at the techn iques page and down load the pdf.?=0A?=0AIt always amazes me that folks do not do extensive testing of their aircraft. I realize that when built straight, this aircraft is nearly bullet proof so why bother.?=0AThat said, it is gratifying to do a 2000 mile cross country in your bird and only have to put gas in and be able to look at the range yo u need and simply adjust the throttle?=0Ato get the desired miles per gallon necessary for the winds to flight plan. This is possible because you have iron clad data on your a ircraft/engine/propeller you personally have tested.?=0A?=0AI ho pe this helps.?=0A?=0ABest Regards,?=0ABud Yerly?=0ACustom Flight Creations.?=0A-----Original Message----- From: Davids?=0ASe nt: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:30 PM?=0ATo: europa-list@matr onics.com?=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Airmaster Whirlwind blades? =0A?=0A--> Europa-List message posted by: Davids <stranfaer @btinternet.com>?=0A?=0ARichard I am looking at this at t he moment but need some support from the?=0Acommunity?=0A? =0ASent from my iPhone?=0A?=0A> On 14 Oct 2015, at 20 :12, Richard Holder <richard.holder@outlook.com>?=0A> wrote: ?=0A>?=0A> --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder?=0A> <richard.holder@outlook.com>?=0A>?=0A> Hi All?=0A>?=0A> Has anyone in the UK tried the ne w Whirlwind blades to fit the Airmaster?=0A> hub ? Great things are promised.?=0A>?=0A> I just don't want to be the first to try them as the paperwork puts me?=0A& gt; off.?=0A>?=0A> If someone has done it already pl ease let me know.?=0A>?=0A> Thanks?=0A>?=0A> R ichard Holder?=0A> G-OWWW?=0A>?=0A>?=0A>?=0A>? =0A?=0A?=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:58 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: making a hole in the fuselage floor Im fitting an Andair gascolator: http://www.andair.co.uk/product/gascolator-gas375/ and mounting it on the port outboard rib that supports the baggage bay bulkhead. My intention is to make an opening in the fuselage floor, between the port inboard and outboard ribs, to allow dropping of the gascolator bowl for inspection & filter cleaning. However, it occurs to me that making a hole could potentially cause structural strength problems. I picked up some nice little snap-in plastic inspection covers at the LAA Rally but unfortunately they are just too small to allow the gascolator bowl to pass through, so I will have to make either a hinged or screwed-on panel for access. What knowledge is there about making holes in the fuselage? How big can they be? Are any locations verboten for holes? Assuming its safe to do in the first place, is any type of access cover better than any other? All input welcome. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:38 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: making a hole in the fuselage floor > On Oct 19, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Rowland Carson wrote: > > My intention is to make an opening in the fuselage floor, between the port inboard and outboard ribs, to allow dropping of the gascolator bowl for inspection & filter cleaning. However, it occurs to me that making a hole could potentially cause structural strength problems. I picked up some nice little snap-in plastic inspection covers at the LAA Rally but unfortunately they are just too small to allow the gascolator bowl to pass through, so I will have to make either a hinged or screwed-on panel for access. Rowland=85in a similar situation, I satisfied my structural concerns by making a 3 layer BID flange around the opening which overlapped onto the internal fuselage skin by a minimum of 1=94; I also removed enough exposed foam around the perimeter of the opening to create a robust floxxed closure w/ the outer skin. Contact me off list if you=92d like to see some photos=85 In addition to providing access for my gascolator, the drop down hinged panel reveals my 2 fuel drains...Fred ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:46 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: making a hole in the fuselage floor Rowland, I did just that, except mine is on starboard side. I also have a drain tap on the bottom of the Gascolator as this is the low point of the fuel system. Accessed through a rectangular door with rounded corners, and with the hole margin reinforced with two or three layers of Bid extending perhaps 3 cm out - approved by LAA. My Gascoltor was /is a n Andair mini one, deemed adequate when I fitted it. Bowl drops though the door, but you may of course need a larger hole. Feel free to go and inspect it - you will need one of each sort of screwdriver to get full access from both ends. Can no doubt dig out the original paperwork. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2015-10-19 16:37, Rowland Carson wrote: > > I'm fitting an Andair gascolator: > > http://www.andair.co.uk/product/gascolator-gas375/ [1] > > and mounting it on the port outboard rib that supports the baggage bay bulkhead. > > My intention is to make an opening in the fuselage floor, between the port inboard and outboard ribs, to allow dropping of the gascolator bowl for inspection & filter cleaning. However, it occurs to me that making a hole could potentially cause structural strength problems. I picked up some nice little snap-in plastic inspection covers at the LAA Rally but unfortunately they are just too small to allow the gascolator bowl to pass through, so I will have to make either a hinged or screwed-on panel for access. > > What knowledge is there about making holes in the fuselage? How big can they be? Are any locations verboten for holes? > > Assuming it's safe to do in the first place, is any type of access cover better than any other? > > All input welcome. > > in friendship > > Rowland > > Links: ------ [1] http://www.andair.co.uk/product/gascolator-gas375/ [2] http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk [3] http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson [4] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [5] http://forums.matronics.com [6] http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:10 AM PST US From: philip george Subject: =?utf-8?Q?RE:_Europa-List:_making_a_hole_in_the_fuselage_floor? 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