Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:04 AM - Re: Spin characteristics (Ian Cook)
2. 01:20 AM - Re: Spin characteristics (Pete Lawless)
3. 01:44 AM - Re: Spin characteristics (JonSmith)
4. 02:13 AM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (Pete Lawless)
5. 02:21 AM - Re: Spin characteristics (Pete)
6. 02:53 AM - Re: Spin characteristics (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
7. 04:16 AM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (Kevin Challis)
8. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (Rowland Carson)
9. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (Kevin Challis)
10. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
11. 11:01 AM - Re: True fuel tank capacity (Dave Disney)
12. 12:34 PM - Re : Monowheel Tyre choice? (John Wigney)
13. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (David Watts)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Spin characteristics |
Graeme,
Having done 80 odd spins with the Europa MG the main thing
is that the machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed
quickly on recovery, do not overdo the stick forward or you will go
inverted with all the problems that brings. Definitely do not have any
loose article in the cockpit! I believe the standard Europa XS has
similar behaviour e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodynamics
etc.
Regards
Ian Cook
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM
SINGLETON
Sent: 11 April 2016 20:58
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics
I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit
to Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign
but several had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to
inaccuracy of the leading edge of the wing which is critical on Don's
excellent airfoil.
We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans
but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or -
.010"
over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall.
Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall.
Graham
On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk
<mailto:graeme@gdbmk.co.uk> > wrote:
<mailto:graeme@gdbmk.co.uk> >
I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have
been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on
spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and
recovery being dependent on various hard to predict factors;
altitude/pressure as well as plane design. Does anyone spin the mono
outside of UK and have any comment. While searching for info, I have
seen one or two accounts on here of accidental incipient spin. They have
made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for permit flight test)
is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop could send me
inverted.
I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my
hangar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the
circuit on base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar
strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if
you are turning across a stiff breeze.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.mat
ronics.com/contribution
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844>
http:sp; -Matt Dralle, List Adm=======
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Spin characteristics |
Graeme
Way back when there was a Europa video which included a cockpit sequence
of of Pete Clark spinning a Europa. I forget the number of turns he got
to but is was considerable.
Anyone know if that video is still about in a usable format?
Pete
G-RMAC #109
On 12/04/16 09:02, Ian Cook wrote:
>
> Graeme,
>
> Having done 80 odd spins with the Europa MG the main thing is that the
> machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed quickly on
> recovery, do not overdo the stick forward or you will go inverted with
> all the problems that brings. Definitely do not have any loose article
> in the cockpit! I believe the standard Europa XS has similar behaviour
> e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodynamics etc.
>
> Regards
>
> Ian Cook
>
> *From:*owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *GRAHAM
> SINGLETON
> *Sent:* 11 April 2016 20:58
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics
>
> I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for
> Permit to Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively
> benign but several had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be
> due to inaccuracy of the leading edge of the wing which is critical on
> Don's excellent airfoil.
>
> We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans
> but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010"
>
> over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall.
>
> Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall.
>
> Graham
>
> On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk
> <mailto:graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>> wrote:
>
> <mailto:graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>>
>
> I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have
> been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on
> spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and
> recovery being dependent on various hard to predict factors;
> altitude/pressure as well as plane design. Does anyone spin the mono
> outside of UK and have any comment. While searching for info, I have
> seen one or two accounts on here of accidental incipient spin. They
> have made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for permit
> flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop
> could send me inverted.
> I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my
> hangar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the
> circuit on base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an
> unfamiliar strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though
> especially if you are turning across a stiff breeze.
>
> --------
> Graeme Bird
> G-UMPY
> Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
> Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono
> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844>
> http:sp; -Matt Dralle, List Adm=======
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Spin characteristics |
This is it Pete! 12 turns! 8mins 30secs in.
http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY
Part 1 is here: http://youtu.be/0EYAQsVWCMs
Part 3 is here: http://youtu.be/TyfLJJ5TYBs
I still love that video......!
--------
G-TERN
Classic Mono
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454861#454861
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Spin characteristics |
Thanks Jon
I think I still have the original video in the loft but nothing to play
it with.
Pete
On 12/04/16 09:43, JonSmith wrote:
>
> This is it Pete! 12 turns! 8mins 30secs in.
>
> http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY
>
>
> Part 1 is here: http://youtu.be/0EYAQsVWCMs
>
> Part 3 is here: http://youtu.be/TyfLJJ5TYBs
>
> I still love that video......!
>
> --------
> G-TERN
> Classic Mono
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454861#454861
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Spin characteristics |
Youtube :-)
http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY
Cheers,
Pete a239
> On Apr 12, 2016, at 4:20 AM, Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info> wrote:
>
> Graeme
>
> Way back when there was a Europa video which included a cockpit sequence o
f of Pete Clark spinning a Europa. I forget the number of turns he got to b
ut is was considerable.
>
> Anyone know if that video is still about in a usable format?
>
> Pete
> G-RMAC #109
>
>> On 12/04/16 09:02, Ian Cook wrote:
>> Graeme,
>> Having done 80 odd spins with the Europa MG the main thing is
that the machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed quickly on r
ecovery, do not overdo the stick forward or you will go inverted with all th
e problems that brings. Definitely do not have any loose article in the cock
pit! I believe the standard Europa XS has similar behaviour e.g.
the same powerful tailplane clean aerodynamics etc.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Ian Cook
>>
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-se
rver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
>> Sent: 11 April 2016 20:58
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics
>>
>> I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit t
o Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign but sev
eral had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to inaccuracy of t
he leading edge of the wing which is critical on Don's excellent airfoil.
>> We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans but
later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010"
>> over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall.
>> Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>> On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been
reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks a
bout the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being depend
ent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as plane d
esign. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. While s
earching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accidental inc
ipient spin. They have made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for p
ermit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop c
ould send me inverted.
>> I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hang
ar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit o
n base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - lucky
to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if you are turning a
cross a stiff breeze.
>>
>> --------
>> Graeme Bird
>> G-UMPY
>> Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
>> Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono
>> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.mat
ronics.com/contribution
>> http:sp; -Matt Dralle, List Adm=======
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Spin characteristics |
Think it was 12 turns then did a normal recoverywhich took another 1 1/2 tu
rns. He also demonstrated that letting go of the stick also recovered fronm
the spin, that took 2 turns.All dredged from the fuzzy depths of my brain
btwGraham
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016, 10:22, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
Youtube =C2-:-)
http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY
Cheers,Pete a239
On Apr 12, 2016, at 4:20 AM, Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info> wrote:
Graeme
Way back when there was a Europa video which included a cockpit sequence o
f of Pete Clark spinning a Europa.=C2- I forget the number of turns he go
t to but is was considerable.
Anyone know if that video is still about in a usable format?
Pete
G-RMAC #109
On 12/04/16 09:02, Ian Cook wrote:
#yiv2557877359 #yiv2557877359 -- _filtered #yiv2557877359 {font-family:Helv
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877359MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv255
7877359 p.yiv2557877359msonormal0, #yiv2557877359 li.yiv2557877359msonormal
0, #yiv2557877359 div.yiv2557877359msonormal0 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left
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:windowtext;}#yiv2557877359 .yiv2557877359MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}
_filtered #yiv2557877359 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv25578773
59 div.yiv2557877359WordSection1 {}#yiv2557877359 Graeme, =C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Having done 80 odd spin
s with the Europa MG the main thing is that the machine goes very near the
vertical and picks up speed quickly on recovery, do not overdo the stick fo
rward or you will go inverted with all the problems that brings. Definitely
do not have any loose article in the cockpit! I believe the standard Euro
pa XS has similar behaviour e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodyna
mics etc. =C2- Regards =C2- Ian Cook =C2- From: owner-europa-lis
t-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On B
ehalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
Sent: 11 April 2016 20:58
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics =C2- I have spun sev
eral early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit to Fly. The Class
ic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign but several had a vici
ous wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to inaccuracy of the leading ed
ge of the wing which is critical on Don's excellent airfoil. We were not
given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans but later on they
did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010" over the first 1
2" of chord does give a much more benign stall. Fitting the now mandatory
stall strips also tames the stall. Graham =C2- On Monday, 11 A
pril 2016, 20:06, graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk> wrote: =C2- --> Eur
opa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk>
I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been
reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks
about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being depe
ndent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as pla
ne design. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. Wh
ile searching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accident
al incipient spin. They have made we think I should make sure my payload (
e.g for permit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a
wing drop could send me inverted.
I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hanga
r neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit o
n base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - luck
y to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if you are turni
ng across a stiff breeze.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.matr
onics.com/contribution
http:sp; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, Li
st Adm=======
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Spin characteristics |
Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk?
Was it just the CAA saying no?
Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about
the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world?
Kevin Challis
G ODJG
Tri gear 912uls
> On 12 Apr 2016, at 09:43, JonSmith <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> This is it Pete! 12 turns! 8mins 30secs in.
>
> http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY
>
>
> Part 1 is here: http://youtu.be/0EYAQsVWCMs
>
> Part 3 is here: http://youtu.be/TyfLJJ5TYBs
>
> I still love that video......!
>
> --------
> G-TERN
> Classic Mono
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454861#454861
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Spin characteristics |
On 2016-04-12, at 12:16, Kevin Challis <cakeykev@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk?
>
> Was it just the CAA saying no?
>
> Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about
the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world?
Kevin - at the Europa Club seminar held at Leicester on 2 & 3 May 1998, Francis
Donaldson was one of the speakers. The focus of his presentation was the mod
to allow 1370lb gross weight. However, as an aside he said that to pass the time
on the train to the event, he had done some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations
and there is potential for aerobatic clearance at reduced max gross weight
(eg 1050 lb).
Ive always thought it would be nice if someone could pursue that and get a precedent
for Europas to do simple aerobatics (eg roll & loop) in UK jurisdiction.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a
'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/index.php
| Europa #435 G-RODO in build
| LAA #016532
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Spin characteristics |
Rowland
Thank you for that information. I agree it would be nice to be able to do basic
aerobatics.
Kevin
> On 12 Apr 2016, at 15:58, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On 2016-04-12, at 12:16, Kevin Challis <cakeykev@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk?
>>
>> Was it just the CAA saying no?
>>
>> Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about
the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world?
>
> Kevin - at the Europa Club seminar held at Leicester on 2 & 3 May 1998, Francis
Donaldson was one of the speakers. The focus of his presentation was the mod
to allow 1370lb gross weight. However, as an aside he said that to pass the
time on the train to the event, he had done some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations
and there is potential for aerobatic clearance at reduced max gross weight
(eg 1050 lb).
>
> Ive always thought it would be nice if someone could pursue that and get a precedent
for Europas to do simple aerobatics (eg roll & loop) in UK jurisdiction.
>
> in friendship
>
> Rowland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Spin characteristics |
Kevin, There is of course very little to stop you doing aerobatics in
the privacy of your own back yard! The original stress testing of the
structure suggested ample reserve strength. However two points worth
mentioning:
1. The vagaries of amateur/non certified composite work led the PFA/LAA
to include a number of safety factors (just in case you didn't get it
absolutely right) which took it out of normal aerobatic range. The
wisdom of this approach was demonstrated when William Mills' plane broke
up in mid air whilst (probably) pulling out from his VNE MAUW dive, most
likely pulling fewer g than you might experience in many aerobatic
manoeuvres. AAIB probable cause - the plates that the front lift pin
screw into had been poorly located in the (Classic) wing.
2. Although no bar to loops, Rotax engines do not like being more than
45 degrees from upright.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2016-04-12 16:35, Kevin Challis wrote:
>
> Rowland
>
> Thank you for that information. I agree it would be nice to be able to do basic
aerobatics.
>
> Kevin
loop) in
UK jurisdiction. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/index.php [1] | Europa #435 G-RODO in build | LAA #016532
Links:
------
[1] http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/index.php
[2] http://www.buildersbooks.com
[3] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[4] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[5] http://forums.matronics.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: True fuel tank capacity |
This is interesting.
I'm getting closer to installing a bladder into my XS mono leaking fuel tank. It
will be interesting to see what the capacity is when I've finished.
Dave Disney
G-RJWX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454893#454893
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re : Monowheel Tyre choice? |
Hi Jon,
I have had good success with McCreary Air Trac 7.00 - 6, 6 ply -
Aircraft Spruce # 06-09600. No problems on soft ground.
Cheers, John
N262WF, mono XS, 912S
Mooresville, NC
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel Tyre choice?
From: "JonSmith"<jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>
Could I just ask what is the Favoured main wheel tyre for the Monowheel? Mine
is the original and after 17 years is getting past it's best before date! It's
labelled Goodyear Caddymaster 8.00 - 6 NHS. Can you still get those ones?
Tyres are not my field of expertise - I know nothing about them. I've seen Airtrac
ones labelled 8.00 - 6 and 7.00 - 6. Does the smaller the number mean they
are narrower? I like the big fat one as the field I fly from is often wet/
soft.
Many thanks!
--------
G-TERN
Classic Mono
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Spin characteristics |
Rowland,
In 2000/2001 I did try to get my aircraft approved for aerobatics with the then
PFA and I am reproducing their response here.
"Unfortunately, clearing and aircraft for aerobatics involves much more than a
simple mathematical equation. For example, if the aeroplane is flown to +6g at
1050 lbs gross weight rather than 4g at 1370 lbs gross weight, while the wing
and tail loads will be approximately similar, the inertial loads imposed on the
aeroplane by items of mass (engine, pilot, battery, etc) will be 50% greater.
It will be worse than embarrassing if the engine were to fall out part way
through a loop."
The response also went on to point out that the application would require a full
independent design report at the new proposed loading.
Dave Watts
G-BXDY Classic Monowheel 2,200 hrs.
> On 12 Apr 2016, at 15:58, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On 2016-04-12, at 12:16, Kevin Challis <cakeykev@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk?
>>
>> Was it just the CAA saying no?
>>
>> Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about
the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world?
>
> Kevin - at the Europa Club seminar held at Leicester on 2 & 3 May 1998, Francis
Donaldson was one of the speakers. The focus of his presentation was the mod
to allow 1370lb gross weight. However, as an aside he said that to pass the
time on the train to the event, he had done some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations
and there is potential for aerobatic clearance at reduced max gross weight
(eg 1050 lb).
>
> Ive always thought it would be nice if someone could pursue that and get a precedent
for Europas to do simple aerobatics (eg roll & loop) in UK jurisdiction.
>
> in friendship
>
> Rowland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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