---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/12/16: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:04 AM - Re: Spin characteristics (Ian Cook) 2. 01:20 AM - Re: Spin characteristics (Pete Lawless) 3. 01:44 AM - Re: Spin characteristics (JonSmith) 4. 02:13 AM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (Pete Lawless) 5. 02:21 AM - Re: Spin characteristics (Pete) 6. 02:53 AM - Re: Spin characteristics (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 7. 04:16 AM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (Kevin Challis) 8. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (Rowland Carson) 9. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (Kevin Challis) 10. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 11. 11:01 AM - Re: True fuel tank capacity (Dave Disney) 12. 12:34 PM - Re : Monowheel Tyre choice? (John Wigney) 13. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: Spin characteristics (David Watts) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:03 AM PST US From: Ian Cook Subject: RE: Europa-List: Spin characteristics Graeme, Having done 80 odd spins with the Europa MG the main thing is that the machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed quickly on recovery, do not overdo the stick forward or you will go inverted with all the problems that brings. Definitely do not have any loose article in the cockpit! I believe the standard Europa XS has similar behaviour e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodynamics etc. Regards Ian Cook From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 11 April 2016 20:58 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit to Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign but several had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to inaccuracy of the leading edge of the wing which is critical on Don's excellent airfoil. We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010" over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall. Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall. Graham On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird > wrote: > I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being dependent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as plane design. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. While searching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accidental incipient spin. They have made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for permit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop could send me inverted. I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hangar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit on base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if you are turning across a stiff breeze. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.mat ronics.com/contribution http:sp; -Matt Dralle, List Adm======= ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics From: Pete Lawless Graeme Way back when there was a Europa video which included a cockpit sequence of of Pete Clark spinning a Europa. I forget the number of turns he got to but is was considerable. Anyone know if that video is still about in a usable format? Pete G-RMAC #109 On 12/04/16 09:02, Ian Cook wrote: > > Graeme, > > Having done 80 odd spins with the Europa MG the main thing is that the > machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed quickly on > recovery, do not overdo the stick forward or you will go inverted with > all the problems that brings. Definitely do not have any loose article > in the cockpit! I believe the standard Europa XS has similar behaviour > e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodynamics etc. > > Regards > > Ian Cook > > *From:*owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *GRAHAM > SINGLETON > *Sent:* 11 April 2016 20:58 > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics > > I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for > Permit to Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively > benign but several had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be > due to inaccuracy of the leading edge of the wing which is critical on > Don's excellent airfoil. > > We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans > but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010" > > over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall. > > Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall. > > Graham > > On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird > wrote: > > > > > I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have > been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on > spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and > recovery being dependent on various hard to predict factors; > altitude/pressure as well as plane design. Does anyone spin the mono > outside of UK and have any comment. While searching for info, I have > seen one or two accounts on here of accidental incipient spin. They > have made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for permit > flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop > could send me inverted. > I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my > hangar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the > circuit on base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an > unfamiliar strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though > especially if you are turning across a stiff breeze. > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY > Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W > Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > http:sp; -Matt Dralle, List Adm======= > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:43 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Spin characteristics From: "JonSmith" This is it Pete! 12 turns! 8mins 30secs in. http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY Part 1 is here: http://youtu.be/0EYAQsVWCMs Part 3 is here: http://youtu.be/TyfLJJ5TYBs I still love that video......! -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454861#454861 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Spin characteristics From: Pete Lawless Thanks Jon I think I still have the original video in the loft but nothing to play it with. Pete On 12/04/16 09:43, JonSmith wrote: > > This is it Pete! 12 turns! 8mins 30secs in. > > http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY > > > Part 1 is here: http://youtu.be/0EYAQsVWCMs > > Part 3 is here: http://youtu.be/TyfLJJ5TYBs > > I still love that video......! > > -------- > G-TERN > Classic Mono > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454861#454861 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics From: Pete Youtube :-) http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY Cheers, Pete a239 > On Apr 12, 2016, at 4:20 AM, Pete Lawless wrote: > > Graeme > > Way back when there was a Europa video which included a cockpit sequence o f of Pete Clark spinning a Europa. I forget the number of turns he got to b ut is was considerable. > > Anyone know if that video is still about in a usable format? > > Pete > G-RMAC #109 > >> On 12/04/16 09:02, Ian Cook wrote: >> Graeme, >> Having done 80 odd spins with the Europa MG the main thing is that the machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed quickly on r ecovery, do not overdo the stick forward or you will go inverted with all th e problems that brings. Definitely do not have any loose article in the cock pit! I believe the standard Europa XS has similar behaviour e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodynamics etc. >> >> Regards >> >> Ian Cook >> >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-se rver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON >> Sent: 11 April 2016 20:58 >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics >> >> I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit t o Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign but sev eral had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to inaccuracy of t he leading edge of the wing which is critical on Don's excellent airfoil. >> We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010" >> over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall. >> Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall. >> Graham >> >> >> On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird wrote: >> >> >> >> I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks a bout the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being depend ent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as plane d esign. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. While s earching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accidental inc ipient spin. They have made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for p ermit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop c ould send me inverted. >> I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hang ar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit o n base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if you are turning a cross a stiff breeze. >> >> -------- >> Graeme Bird >> G-UMPY >> Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W >> Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono >> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.mat ronics.com/contribution >> http:sp; -Matt Dralle, List Adm======= > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:21 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics Think it was 12 turns then did a normal recoverywhich took another 1 1/2 tu rns. He also demonstrated that letting go of the stick also recovered fronm the spin, that took 2 turns.All dredged from the fuzzy depths of my brain btwGraham On Tuesday, 12 April 2016, 10:22, Pete wrote: Youtube =C2-:-) http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY Cheers,Pete a239 On Apr 12, 2016, at 4:20 AM, Pete Lawless wrote: Graeme Way back when there was a Europa video which included a cockpit sequence o f of Pete Clark spinning a Europa.=C2- I forget the number of turns he go t to but is was considerable. Anyone know if that video is still about in a usable format? Pete G-RMAC #109 On 12/04/16 09:02, Ian Cook wrote: #yiv2557877359 #yiv2557877359 -- _filtered #yiv2557877359 {font-family:Helv etica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2557877359 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2557877359 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1: 2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv2557877359 #yiv2557877359 p.yiv2557877359MsoNorma l, #yiv2557877359 li.yiv2557877359MsoNormal, #yiv2557877359 div.yiv25578773 59MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv2557877 359 a:link, #yiv2557877359 span.yiv2557877359MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text- decoration:underline;}#yiv2557877359 a:visited, #yiv2557877359 span.yiv2557 877359MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv255 7877359 p.yiv2557877359msonormal0, #yiv2557877359 li.yiv2557877359msonormal 0, #yiv2557877359 div.yiv2557877359msonormal0 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left :0cm;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv2557877359 span.yiv2557877359EmailStyle18 {color :windowtext;}#yiv2557877359 .yiv2557877359MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv2557877359 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv25578773 59 div.yiv2557877359WordSection1 {}#yiv2557877359 Graeme, =C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Having done 80 odd spin s with the Europa MG the main thing is that the machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed quickly on recovery, do not overdo the stick fo rward or you will go inverted with all the problems that brings. Definitely do not have any loose article in the cockpit! I believe the standard Euro pa XS has similar behaviour e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodyna mics etc. =C2- Regards =C2- Ian Cook =C2- From: owner-europa-lis t-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On B ehalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 11 April 2016 20:58 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spin characteristics =C2- I have spun sev eral early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit to Fly. The Class ic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign but several had a vici ous wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to inaccuracy of the leading ed ge of the wing which is critical on Don's excellent airfoil. We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010" over the first 1 2" of chord does give a much more benign stall. Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall. Graham =C2- On Monday, 11 A pril 2016, 20:06, graeme bird wrote: =C2- --> Eur opa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being depe ndent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as pla ne design. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. Wh ile searching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accident al incipient spin. They have made we think I should make sure my payload ( e.g for permit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop could send me inverted. I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hanga r neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit o n base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - luck y to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if you are turni ng across a stiff breeze. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.matr onics.com/contribution http:sp; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, Li st Adm======= ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:57 AM PST US From: Kevin Challis Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Spin characteristics Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk? Was it just the CAA saying no? Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world? Kevin Challis G ODJG Tri gear 912uls > On 12 Apr 2016, at 09:43, JonSmith wrote: > > > This is it Pete! 12 turns! 8mins 30secs in. > > http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY > > > Part 1 is here: http://youtu.be/0EYAQsVWCMs > > Part 3 is here: http://youtu.be/TyfLJJ5TYBs > > I still love that video......! > > -------- > G-TERN > Classic Mono > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454861#454861 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Spin characteristics From: Rowland Carson On 2016-04-12, at 12:16, Kevin Challis wrote: > Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk? > > Was it just the CAA saying no? > > Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world? Kevin - at the Europa Club seminar held at Leicester on 2 & 3 May 1998, Francis Donaldson was one of the speakers. The focus of his presentation was the mod to allow 1370lb gross weight. However, as an aside he said that to pass the time on the train to the event, he had done some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations and there is potential for aerobatic clearance at reduced max gross weight (eg 1050 lb). Ive always thought it would be nice if someone could pursue that and get a precedent for Europas to do simple aerobatics (eg roll & loop) in UK jurisdiction. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/index.php | Europa #435 G-RODO in build | LAA #016532 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:12 AM PST US From: Kevin Challis Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Spin characteristics Rowland Thank you for that information. I agree it would be nice to be able to do basic aerobatics. Kevin > On 12 Apr 2016, at 15:58, Rowland Carson wrote: > > >> On 2016-04-12, at 12:16, Kevin Challis wrote: >> >> Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk? >> >> Was it just the CAA saying no? >> >> Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world? > > Kevin - at the Europa Club seminar held at Leicester on 2 & 3 May 1998, Francis Donaldson was one of the speakers. The focus of his presentation was the mod to allow 1370lb gross weight. However, as an aside he said that to pass the time on the train to the event, he had done some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations and there is potential for aerobatic clearance at reduced max gross weight (eg 1050 lb). > > Ive always thought it would be nice if someone could pursue that and get a precedent for Europas to do simple aerobatics (eg roll & loop) in UK jurisdiction. > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:11 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Spin characteristics Kevin, There is of course very little to stop you doing aerobatics in the privacy of your own back yard! The original stress testing of the structure suggested ample reserve strength. However two points worth mentioning: 1. The vagaries of amateur/non certified composite work led the PFA/LAA to include a number of safety factors (just in case you didn't get it absolutely right) which took it out of normal aerobatic range. The wisdom of this approach was demonstrated when William Mills' plane broke up in mid air whilst (probably) pulling out from his VNE MAUW dive, most likely pulling fewer g than you might experience in many aerobatic manoeuvres. AAIB probable cause - the plates that the front lift pin screw into had been poorly located in the (Classic) wing. 2. Although no bar to loops, Rotax engines do not like being more than 45 degrees from upright. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2016-04-12 16:35, Kevin Challis wrote: > > Rowland > > Thank you for that information. I agree it would be nice to be able to do basic aerobatics. > > Kevin loop) in UK jurisdiction. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/index.php [1] | Europa #435 G-RODO in build | LAA #016532 Links: ------ [1] http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/index.php [2] http://www.buildersbooks.com [3] http://www.matronics.com/contribution [4] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [5] http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:07 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: True fuel tank capacity From: "Dave Disney" This is interesting. I'm getting closer to installing a bladder into my XS mono leaking fuel tank. It will be interesting to see what the capacity is when I've finished. Dave Disney G-RJWX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454893#454893 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:17 PM PST US From: John Wigney Subject: Europa-List: Re : Monowheel Tyre choice? Hi Jon, I have had good success with McCreary Air Trac 7.00 - 6, 6 ply - Aircraft Spruce # 06-09600. No problems on soft ground. Cheers, John N262WF, mono XS, 912S Mooresville, NC ORIGINAL MESSAGE Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel Tyre choice? From: "JonSmith" Could I just ask what is the Favoured main wheel tyre for the Monowheel? Mine is the original and after 17 years is getting past it's best before date! It's labelled Goodyear Caddymaster 8.00 - 6 NHS. Can you still get those ones? Tyres are not my field of expertise - I know nothing about them. I've seen Airtrac ones labelled 8.00 - 6 and 7.00 - 6. Does the smaller the number mean they are narrower? I like the big fat one as the field I fly from is often wet/ soft. Many thanks! -------- G-TERN Classic Mono ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Spin characteristics From: David Watts Rowland, In 2000/2001 I did try to get my aircraft approved for aerobatics with the then PFA and I am reproducing their response here. "Unfortunately, clearing and aircraft for aerobatics involves much more than a simple mathematical equation. For example, if the aeroplane is flown to +6g at 1050 lbs gross weight rather than 4g at 1370 lbs gross weight, while the wing and tail loads will be approximately similar, the inertial loads imposed on the aeroplane by items of mass (engine, pilot, battery, etc) will be 50% greater. It will be worse than embarrassing if the engine were to fall out part way through a loop." The response also went on to point out that the application would require a full independent design report at the new proposed loading. Dave Watts G-BXDY Classic Monowheel 2,200 hrs. > On 12 Apr 2016, at 15:58, Rowland Carson wrote: > > >> On 2016-04-12, at 12:16, Kevin Challis wrote: >> >> Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk? >> >> Was it just the CAA saying no? >> >> Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world? > > Kevin - at the Europa Club seminar held at Leicester on 2 & 3 May 1998, Francis Donaldson was one of the speakers. The focus of his presentation was the mod to allow 1370lb gross weight. However, as an aside he said that to pass the time on the train to the event, he had done some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations and there is potential for aerobatic clearance at reduced max gross weight (eg 1050 lb). > > Ive always thought it would be nice if someone could pursue that and get a precedent for Europas to do simple aerobatics (eg roll & loop) in UK jurisdiction. > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.