---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/01/16: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:11 AM - Re: SmartASS my UndercarriageSmartASS my UndercarriageSmartASS my Undercarriage (William Bliss) 2. 04:59 AM - Turn back was SmartASS etc (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 3. 06:56 AM - Re: Fuel hose (Richard Lamprey) 4. 08:20 AM - Re: Fuel hose (spcialeffects) 5. 08:24 AM - Re: SmartASS my UndercarriageSmartASS my UndercarriageSmartASS my Undercarriage (Bud Yerly) 6. 09:45 AM - Re: US Canada Insurance Survey (h&jeuropa) 7. 11:39 AM - Re: US Canada Insurance Survey (h&jeuropa) 8. 12:11 PM - Re: Turn back was SmartASS etc (Bud Yerly) 9. 12:11 PM - Flydat error 06 (Alain Chabert) 10. 12:44 PM - Re: Rotax Engine Troubleshooting (Remi Guerner) 11. 12:51 PM - Exhaust Springs (david park) 12. 02:16 PM - Re: Turn back was SmartASS etc (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 13. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Engine Troubleshooting (Bud Yerly) 14. 04:57 PM - Re: Torque Tube Clamp (Bob Harrison) 15. 05:38 PM - Re: Turn back was SmartASS etc (Bud Yerly) 16. 11:02 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 17. 11:06 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: SmartASS my UndercarriageSmartASS my UndercarriageSmartASS my Undercarriage From: William Bliss Thank you for your responces Bud and David. I am digesting your knowledge and shall be exploring the less familiar parts of the flight envelope - particularly turns in the glide. A couple of questions though... David - how do you manage a stall speed of 38Kt? G-WUFF stall speed is closer to 48Kt - although is seems I can go slower if I gradually increase power as I am raising the nose (which is not the specified method for Permit Check Flight purposes and therefore rarely experienced). Bud - how high is 3 mistakes for the average GA pilot? And I do not have a G-meter or any means of measuring angle of bank. Oh - I nearly forgot another important question. Where can I get an extension to carry the piddle pee safely into the receptacle.......? Releasing the straps and standing up does not work well. Thanks again William ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:21 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc Bud & William, This has the makings of a rich seam of discussion! Firstly William, I have been a bit sloppy in talking about my stall speed. In various formal tests for initial permit and annual renewal I have recorded it at between 39 and 43 kts with flaps down (and 48 -50kts clean) with loadings between 1210 and1370lbs. I have tended to do my experiments on turn back height loss at different bank angles flying solo so think more in terms of the lower figure, and on occasions when the wings are polished and bug free and the wing root gaps freshly sealed, I have recorded 38kts. Stall speed vs Bank: The pilot's handbook for the mono XS talks of 44 kts level Max AUW stall speed. If you take that, the stall speed for different bank angles would be: 45 Deg = 52kts; 60 deg = 62kts: 70deg 76 kts; 80 deg = 108kts (these figures and those to follow are available in most standard flight texts or on line at www.csgnetwork.com [1]). These stall speeds at 70 or 80 degree bank are enough to persuade me that steep turns in an engine off situation are a recipe for disaster. I once, for fun did a deliberate stall in a steep turn (probably around 75degs) and found myself immediately in a spin. Richard Iddon did something similar but found himself in an inverted spin! Turning Circles: Bud you have suggested 800ft as the diameter of turn for at 45 degree bank will have a turn diameter of 800 ft but the actual figure from standard tables is 445ft, and assuming that the pilot has had the wit to turn into whatever cross wind there is, he will have drifted much or all of this back to the centre line by the time he has completed his 180 turn. Height Loss: You also imply that you effectively turn the plane on its side and let it go in free fall downwards rather than flying it in a balanced way so maybe we are talking about something rather different. However I have a bit of problem with your maths. You do not fall at 32 ft per sec - you accelerate downwards at 32 ft per second per second and 10 secs of free fall takes you 1600ft - not good news! Finally can I say again that the good starting point for dealing with an EFATO is doing just what your instructor told you - land ahead. If you are looking to improve your skills and planning not to become the 9th Europa pilot to succumb to a stall/spin disaster, then I would strongly recommend working out a system of turn back that works for you and practice it until you can do it with minimal thought Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2016-04-30 18:12, Bud Yerly wrote: > David, > Not to open a can of worms. > I have read the same study. In most aircraft with slow roll and high drag, he is correct. On the average, a 45 degree bank gives a higher turn rate and you still have 70% of your lift available to arrest your descent. > > Stan Sutterfield (another fighter pilot smart ass and Reno competitor) and I did this in a couple of aircraft. In the Europa for instance, the roll rate, if you unload to 1/4 G is very good (100 degrees per second). A pull to the verge of stall near 80 or so degrees of bank at 75 KTS (the FAA recommends 70 degrees to be the maximum of any turn of course) , turns the aircraft at three times the rate at 75 knots. So it will take about 3 seconds to do a 180 and the radius of turn is 200 feet. REMEMBER, NO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN ALTITUDE! The average pilot needs 3 seconds to react while climbing and one second to roll in a second to pull, and the same two seconds to roll out. That is 10 seconds from straight ahead, to complete 180. Falling at 32.2 FPS, the plane will drop 320 feet because gravity works 24/7. Accounting for upward momentum during the three seconds to react at a 15 degree deck angle of 75 feet, once can see that the a completed well practiced turn can be done in les s than 300 feet. The aircraft pitch will go from 15 degrees up to 15 degrees down and still leave you with a descent glide if done at 800 feet and about 75 knots on completion. > > The 45 degree of bank will take an agonizing 10 seconds, then add the reaction time, and the loss of altitude in a power off turn is staggering and the diameter of the turn is well off the centerline by 800 feet. Now you have another turn to do. That's dumb. > > I have done this maniac maneuver at altitude and once in the pattern (scared the crap out of everyone and I was at 800 feet and younger then) and it works. (Stan did it in a 172, but he is quite skilled.) I have had a couple of clients try it and without dedicated maneuver practice and years of training, lost amazing altitude and buried the nose. Without the training and practice, this is one of those bar stories and fun things to practice three mistakes high, but totally useless. Like racing airplanes at low altitude or doing Red Bull air racing. Fun for the pilot, exciting to watch, but totally useless and expensive. Besides my wife said no... > > As you so wonderfully said "I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you". is the most sage advice one can give a fellow pilot. > > NEVER DO A 180 as either it will kill you due to altitude loss or stall, or the sudden stop will! Turn only as necessary to hit something soft. Then open the door and step out and call the insurance company. > > Best Regards, > Bud Yerly > > FROM: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > SENT: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 5:19 PM > TO: europa-list@matronics.com > SUBJECT: Re: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage > > Bud, excellent advice and I am envious of the F4 experience! I hesitate to quibble but there is one point I would like to offer a view contrary to what you appear to be saying. That is on the most efficient way to turn in an engine out situation if you are going to turn - and I hasten to add that I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you, and as you say, and critically, you have practiced all the relevant skills. > > One of your countrymen , David Rogers, professor at US Naval Academy, Indianapolis, who clearly has high order mathematical skills, has shown definitively that the most efficient way of turning, (that is the way of turning through any given number of degrees with minimum height loss) is to turn at 45 degrees bank at as slow a speed as you can sensibly maintain without falling out of the sky. Any more or any less bank increases the height loss, quite apart from rapidly increasing stall speed. You mentioned 80 degrees and I can imagine that this might offer the quickest way of getting a fighter pointing in reverse, but it would produce substantially greater height loss for an engine out Europa, quite apart from stressing it to 5.76g and increasing the stall speed to around 100kts, or higher if you are flying at US mauw. > > My two penny (cents?) worth on stall/spin accidents, SmartASSes and the like and a practical application of the Rogers findings, is on the club website >>Flying>>Flight Safety, for what it is worth. If you would like to turn your email advice into an article, I would happily add that to this website eection. > > Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ > > On 2016-04-27 06:55, Bud Yerly wrote: > >> >> William, >> A distracted pilot is a link in an accident chain to be sure. Thanks for sharing your experience. Frankly I needed it. We used to have a safety magazine with a "There I Was" section of cartoons (with a message) before the real there I was near mishap article someone shared. >> >> Although I am a keep it simple kind of guy, gear warning and stall warning systems work. Are they worth the cost, effort to install, troubleshoot, fine tune, and test? Normally Yes. >> Are slow speed voice warning systems better than the stall rumble strips, or visual AOA systems, tones, "Bitching Bettys" and are they worth it on a straight wing aircraft? Not to me, but they are another tool to help cue the distracted or tired pilot to the old feeling that something is wrong. Probably time to add a slow speed switch to 12AY. Alas, if you get used to hearing the slow speed warning or seeing the red AOA arrow because a system isn't calibrated, we ignore it when we may need it the most. When something is wrong, or it doesn't feel right, go around and get your stuff together always works. Yes, I do carry a piddle pack and have had to use it to relieve "cockpit stress". >> >> What's the cost of a prop, engine repair and wheel well repair vs. the time and cost of a gear up warning system? Your choice. >> What's the cost of loss of a plane/life due to a mishap caused by a non proficient, distracted, or fatigued pilot. Priceless to us all. And you're all lying if you haven't been there. Know you limitations. >> >> Whether you are experience or not, practice, practice, practice. Know your airplane, its stall characteristics, and in my case I fly it to its limits every time I do a practice hop. I don't do touch and goes. I do very low approaches where I slow flight down the runway for a 1000 feet just inches from the runway, perfectly aligned and it makes me keep flying the airplane rather than that old relaxation on landing habit we fall into, and my touchdowns are at 45 instead of 50. (My tires don't wear out either.) Don't put yourself into situations where you are overly fatigued. (No more afternoon takeoffs and long three hops to get home, as I have a credit card and am not afraid to use it at any hotel.) Never take anything for granted, use the checklist, know your pitch, power settings and speeds. Become a student of aviation again, take the time to read (Google just about any topic and you get a wealth of info, try "pitch and power flying"). We do things as old (read as experi enced) aviators from muscle memory, but the brain muscle is the most important tool, and we have to sharpen a tool to use it effectively. >> >> Develop good habits by breaking old ones. Read articles again on flying and techniques to get the brain juices flowing again. The Rotax and Airmaster have made me a lazy pilot. It is easy to push the power forward and pull the stick back and the houses get smaller, but it is power that makes us climb, not pitch alone (for long anyway) and occasionally I wish I had my GIB (Guy In Back in the F-4) to tell me to "Start doing some of that pilot SH T and get us out of here." or the famous "Doesn't all that shaking and beeping and rudder pedal vibration bother you?" as he locks his knees together at high AOA to prevent a departure from controlled flight. >> >> Practice routinely, know your airplane well, know the proper site pictures, pitch and power settings and install rumble strips on the leading edge to allow the aircraft feel to warn you of an approach to the stall. Then set and calibrate your EFIS/Stall Warn/AOA system to warn of a low speed situation/gear up or accelerated stall in the turn to keep you honest when you're not having your best day. Practice simulated engine out approaches, no flaps, partial power situations. Develop a passenger brief. Practice an emergency ground egress as if you just departed the runway and found one of our Florida water filled ditches and need to get unstrapped and out quickly. Climb up three mistakes high and do power on and off stalls. Practice unload for control drills. The plane won't stall if the AOA is zero. (Unload for control is an old military drill where the aircraft is flown to a high pitch attitude and the aircraft is unloaded to a quarter G (just getting light in the seat, no t negative) and allowing the plane to fall through.) It teaches what an unload feels like when you are in need of full power instant acceleration to get out of trouble at slow speed rather than the push the stick forward drills I see our local instructors do. What happens when at 75 knots in a full power climb and you pull the power, count to three (reaction time) and try to do a 180. I've done a 180 in less than a couple hundred feet, but 80 degrees of bank pulling at the burble is not a recommended thing to do, can I do it, yes, will I do it rather than go for the golf course, no. If I goof it up, I'll get killed, if I hit a tree and land in it or hit a sand trap, I'll survive. Stretch a glide by slowing to near stall speed and watching the VSI, then do it at 75 and note the difference. Pull the power to idle on base and glide at best glide speed and see how your pattern is affected. Then do practice engine out approaches. Bottom line, If I haven't flown in thirty days, I go practice much of the above. If I haven't flown in 60 days, I fly with an instructor if I can find one, and if I can't, I go with another current experienced pilot and or take it in baby steps to get the pitch and power down, checklist operations, air work, emergency procedures and finally landings, at least three. Normal low approaches to get the feel of the pattern, then a normal full flap touch and go, no flap touch and go, full stop, min roll takeoff and soft field landing. >> >> All the FARs in the US say is to fly alone, I can go nearly 24 months (last BFR) if I want and then do three takeoffs and landings and I can take folks up with me on a cross country (DUH). >> >> My two cents, >> Trying to live longer. >> Bud Yerly >> >> -----Original Message----- From: William Bliss Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 4:37 PM >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage >> >> >> Hi All >> Just thought I would tell you how I had long flight last weekend. >> Arriving back at the farm strip aching for a pee I had to do a low pass >> to clear the sheep. That quickly done, downwind checks and on finals >> sizing up the crosswind I became aware of a voice telling me to check I >> had the wheel down. I had not got the locking catch properly in place. >> Sorted. I would say the investment in the SmartASS has paid off.... >> William Bliss G-WUFF >> >> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ics.com >> .com >> .matronics.com/contribution Links: ------ [1] http://www.csgnetwork.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:27 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel hose From: "Richard Lamprey" George and Rowland, thanks very much for your help. I'll give them a try. Best, Richard Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455712#455712 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:05 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel hose From: "spcialeffects" Richard, Speedflow are fantastic for anything fuel related. Fay is very knowledgable. On and Europa closed subject why can't swift donate any more resorces while Karen is on holiday? Is the company really not bigger then 1 person?????? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455716#455716 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:10 AM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: SmartASS my UndercarriageSmartASS my UndercarriageSmartASS my Undercarriage Will, I use 3000 AGL. It allows a person in checkout to really plumber up a stall, loose 1000 feet and allow me time to do a low/ high speed dive recovery and recover by 1000 AGL which is my maneuvering floor. In your flight training, at least my initial civil pilot training, our flight school required a minimum altitude for students practicing stalls of 2500 feet. I used every bit of that when I plumbered up a takeoff departure stall. I flipped inverted (1), did a completely loaded roll (2), and ended up straight down and did about a 2 G recovery (3) losing every bit of 2000 feet and getting a really close look at the 300 foot bluffs along the Mississippi river. I talked to our chief pilot and that is when I formulated I would fly at least three mistakes high and use a floor initially of 500 feet. When we did spin training in the Cessna 150 (a fairly good spinner), we used 4500 or 5000 for the start entry if memory serves. Again, the chief pilot felt that 1500 feet for a single turn spin would be lost, then the instructor could plumber up the spin, and loose another 1500 feet and then do a dive recovery and come back with a story to tell rather than a smoking hole. Later when we were brave and young with 50 hours of private pilot time, we would fly Aeronca Champs and do spins to a heading and never loose more than 500 feet. It is a different and safer world now. Note: My personal floor is 1000 AGL now for any cruising or maneuvering. I fly pretty much straight and level, and no more than 45 degrees of bank and do not slow below glide speed below that. Below 1000 feet you are in the low altitude structure and that is a different discipline. Low altitude maneuvering or military low level training were disciplines well regulated and trained for extensively. Your time to disaster is very short. The piddle packs have been improved, and for those with the high top, I was ferrying Gary Leinberger's high top, the room is incredible... At 5'10' (well hunched over and shorter now) you can change your pants in it. In my Classic, I can't sit up straight without hitting the canopy. If I have to go, I need a towel, and use one of the new gel type packs called the Travel John. I haven't needed the towel but it's better to be safe than sorry. After prostate cancer, I'm afraid not even an extension will work any longer. Believe it or not, I actually went up three mistakes high to even try using the packs after the radiation treatments had me bothered about the urgency of urination I was experiencing. It is nice to have that behind me now. Regards, Bud -----Original Message----- From: William Bliss Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 5:10 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: SmartASS my UndercarriageSmartASS my UndercarriageSmartASS my Undercarriage Thank you for your responces Bud and David. I am digesting your knowledge and shall be exploring the less familiar parts of the flight envelope - particularly turns in the glide. A couple of questions though... David - how do you manage a stall speed of 38Kt? G-WUFF stall speed is closer to 48Kt - although is seems I can go slower if I gradually increase power as I am raising the nose (which is not the specified method for Permit Check Flight purposes and therefore rarely experienced). Bud - how high is 3 mistakes for the average GA pilot? And I do not have a G-meter or any means of measuring angle of bank. Oh - I nearly forgot another important question. Where can I get an extension to carry the piddle pee safely into the receptacle.......? Releasing the straps and standing up does not work well. Thanks again William ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:18 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: US Canada Insurance Survey From: "h&jeuropa" Thanks to all who answered my request about their insurance coverage and premium. I have attached a graph of the data (mono-wheel in blue, tri-gear in magenta). Even though the data is limited (7 mono-wheel, 5 tri-gear), a few trends are apparent. It appears a mono-wheel is perhaps $400 more expensive to insure than a tri-gear for the same hull value. All but one tri-gear are insured by AIG (4) Global (1), whereas mono-wheels are scattered between Global (1), AIG (3) and Starr (3). There are eight different brokers represented. No one is insured by Avemco, the only direct (non-broker) insurer. Two mono-wheel owners have liability only, no hull insurance. One mono-wheel owner has no insurance at all. Two mono-wheel owners and one tri-gear owner have ground, not in motion rather than full coverage hull insurance. Pilot experience ranges from over 10,000 hour ATP to 1100 hour private and make and model experience ranges from 75 to 1000 hours. Im still working on insurance and transition issues and will have an article in the Europa Flyer in the near future. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455721#455721 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ins_graph_262.pdf ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:39:05 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: US Canada Insurance Survey From: "h&jeuropa" I just got another data point so have updated the graph. I've also add which underwriter is associated with each datapoint. This may be useful when comparing offerings from your broker. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455724#455724 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ins_graph_uw_163.pdf ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:06 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc David, Double check. Diameter is about 800 feet, level 45 degrees, at 75 KTAS. See http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html I=99m playing fast and loose with the calcs also. Only during the turn is the altitude loss disregarded and using the now disproven Newtonian physics, 1/2 at squared for 3 to 4 seconds is 145 to 257 feet. Keep in mind the turn is near 90 degrees entered and exited with an unloaded roll using every bit of the lift vector pointed to the center of the turn maximizing rate of turn while pulling at 75 knots in the burble of the stall. The G loading is only about 1.4 Gs by feel. The rate of turn is outstanding as one could imagine and the radius very small. However, if entered with any more than Zero to 1/4 G roll or exited in the same, the altitude loss and time goes up. (Case in point: If one attempts a 20 degree nose high, 1 G, 360 degree aileron roll, I bet you will complete the roll 60-80 degrees nose low and in a high speed dive.) Never do rapid loaded 1 G roll in a fast roll attempt. Stan and I did this because it is the =9CImpossible Turn=9D. Well that is a red flag to a bull to Stan and later I followed along so as not to be outdone. (The ego is a terrible thing.) I was flying in a customers aircraft (I trimmed) and just finished full aft stick stall practice (his plane is really a nice flyer), and asked if I could try something I hadn=99t practiced in a while. I did the so called impossible turn at 3500 AGL to see if I could still come close, as I hadn=99t practiced it in some time. 350 feet. Owner tried it, a couple times and lost over a 1000 feet. He is an excellent pilot, CFI, but not a practicing CFI any longer, current, very comfortable in the aircraft, but not at max performance. We mused about whether one would actually try something like that down low, and agreed that without extensive practice and ideal conditions, it was not sensible. But it can be done in a controlled environment. If a turn back is attempted using normal level turn type techniques you are right, the altitude loss is terrible. Please folks, let us not get into a sailplane discussion here where the simulated tow rope break is done. The Europa short wing is not a sailplane. It can roll very well, and if straight and true, the pilot practiced, it can be flown well into the stall. (Especially if the stall strips are placed properly.) If one breaks into a spin during a hard turn, the plane is out of rig or flown out of trim or side slipped by the pilot . If aileron is introduced at any time during the stall, the down aileron will stall first and as you well know nothing good will happen after that. Usually a snap will occur. Back seaters would keep their knees together to keep the tendency from trying to correct roll with aileron at the stall, the rudder is the tool to use with a well trained foot. These techniques are well taught in most aerobatic and out of control recover maneuvering, also called upset training. Any load or backpressure in a turn defeats the roll rate, aggravates the lateral trim/rig, and can lead to a snap. If you can=99t fly into a stall without fear, there is a reason. It is not taught any longer. The folks that have flown with me know I am conservative, but comfortable in the corners of the envelope. I test the aircraft here until I can fly them without reference to the ball, only looking over the nose until the plane is coaxed into the stall and begins to mush straight ahead. Then I do it in harder turns. A stall is a stall. The same rules apply, only the G loading changes. We slow flight here in gentle turns very near the burble with confidence. Most folks do not get their plane rigged properly. Take the time and do it. An out of rig airplane is a snake in the grass and dangerous. Fly well away from the stall and straight and level until you get the plane fixed. If the plane is OK and you can=99t, then avoid the area or get some training. Even though the information is known, without practice and confidence, the application of the knowledge for the first time is fraught with disaster. Knowledge is worthless without practice and currency. As Dirty Harry said: A mans got to know his limitations. I know I try to. My limits seem to be increasing every day I get older. Currency and familiarity are necessary. If I am not current, I fly an airline profile and get a lot of practice. Fly as your instructors have taught you. Pay attention to your skills. If it feels uncomfortable, don=99t do it until you get proper training. If your plane can=99t get to the stall without rolling tendencies, fix it. Be conservative when close to the ground. As I mentioned to Will, my three mistakes altitude is about 3000 AGL but: =9CMy personal floor is 1000 AGL now for any cruising or maneuvering. I fly pretty much straight and level, and no more than 45 degrees of bank and do not slow below glide speed below that. Below 1000 feet you are in the low altitude structure and that is a different discipline. Low altitude maneuvering or military low level training were disciplines well regulated and trained for extensively. Your time to disaster is very short.=9D Regards, Bud Yerly From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 7:57 AM Subject: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc Bud & William, This has the makings of a rich seam of discussion! Firstly William, I have been a bit sloppy in talking about my stall speed. In various formal tests for initial permit and annual renewal I have recorded it at between 39 and 43 kts with flaps down (and 48 -50kts clean) with loadings between 1210 and1370lbs. I have tended to do my experiments on turn back height loss at different bank angles flying solo so think more in terms of the lower figure, and on occasions when the wings are polished and bug free and the wing root gaps freshly sealed, I have recorded 38kts. Stall speed vs Bank: The pilot's handbook for the mono XS talks of 44 kts level Max AUW stall speed. If you take that, the stall speed for different bank angles would be: 45 Deg = 52kts; 60 deg = 62kts: 70deg = 76 kts; 80 deg = 108kts (these figures and those to follow are available in most standard flight texts or on line at www.csgnetwork.com). These stall speeds at 70 or 80 degree bank are enough to persuade me that steep turns in an engine off situation are a recipe for disaster. I once, for fun did a deliberate stall in a steep turn (probably around 75degs) and found myself immediately in a spin. Richard Iddon did something similar but found himself in an inverted spin! Turning Circles: Bud you have suggested 800ft as the diameter of turn for at 45 degree bank will have a turn diameter of 800 ft but the actual figure from standard tables is 445ft, and assuming that the pilot has had the wit to turn into whatever cross wind there is, he will have drifted much or all of this back to the centre line by the time he has completed his 180 turn. Height Loss: You also imply that you effectively turn the plane on its side and let it go in free fall downwards rather than flying it in a balanced way so maybe we are talking about something rather different. However I have a bit of problem with your maths. You do not fall at 32 ft per sec - you accelerate downwards at 32 ft per second per second and 10 secs of free fall takes you 1600ft - not good news! Finally can I say again that the good starting point for dealing with an EFATO is doing just what your instructor told you - land ahead. If you are looking to improve your skills and planning not to become the 9th Europa pilot to succumb to a stall/spin disaster, then I would strongly recommend working out a system of turn back that works for you and practice it until you can do it with minimal thought Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2016-04-30 18:12, Bud Yerly wrote: David, Not to open a can of worms. I have read the same study. In most aircraft with slow roll and high drag, he is correct. On the average, a 45 degree bank gives a higher turn rate and you still have 70% of your lift available to arrest your descent. Stan Sutterfield (another fighter pilot smart ass and Reno competitor) and I did this in a couple of aircraft. In the Europa for instance, the roll rate, if you unload to 1/4 G is very good (100 degrees per second). A pull to the verge of stall near 80 or so degrees of bank at 75 KTS (the FAA recommends 70 degrees to be the maximum of any turn of course) , turns the aircraft at three times the rate at 75 knots. So it will take about 3 seconds to do a 180 and the radius of turn is 200 feet. REMEMBER, NO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN ALTITUDE! The average pilot needs 3 seconds to react while climbing and one second to roll in a second to pull, and the same two seconds to roll out. That is 10 seconds from straight ahead, to complete 180. Falling at 32.2 FPS, the plane will drop 320 feet because gravity works 24/7. Accounting for upward momentum during the three seconds to react at a 15 degree deck angle of 75 feet, once can see that the a completed well practiced turn can be done in less than 300 feet. The aircraft pitch will go from 15 degrees up to 15 degrees down and still leave you with a descent glide if done at 800 feet and about 75 knots on completion. The 45 degree of bank will take an agonizing 10 seconds, then add the reaction time, and the loss of altitude in a power off turn is staggering and the diameter of the turn is well off the centerline by 800 feet. Now you have another turn to do. That's dumb. I have done this maniac maneuver at altitude and once in the pattern (scared the crap out of everyone and I was at 800 feet and younger then) and it works. (Stan did it in a 172, but he is quite skilled.) I have had a couple of clients try it and without dedicated maneuver practice and years of training, lost amazing altitude and buried the nose. Without the training and practice, this is one of those bar stories and fun things to practice three mistakes high, but totally useless. Like racing airplanes at low altitude or doing Red Bull air racing. Fun for the pilot, exciting to watch, but totally useless and expensive. Besides my wife said no... As you so wonderfully said "I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you". is the most sage advice one can give a fellow pilot. NEVER DO A 180 as either it will kill you due to altitude loss or stall, or the sudden stop will! Turn only as necessary to hit something soft. Then open the door and step out and call the insurance company. Best Regards, Bud Yerly From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 5:19 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage Bud, excellent advice and I am envious of the F4 experience! I hesitate to quibble but there is one point I would like to offer a view contrary to what you appear to be saying. That is on the most efficient way to turn in an engine out situation if you are going to turn - and I hasten to add that I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you, and as you say, and critically, you have practiced all the relevant skills. One of your countrymen , David Rogers, professor at US Naval Academy, Indianapolis, who clearly has high order mathematical skills, has shown definitively that the most efficient way of turning, (that is the way of turning through any given number of degrees with minimum height loss) is to turn at 45 degrees bank at as slow a speed as you can sensibly maintain without falling out of the sky. Any more or any less bank increases the height loss, quite apart from rapidly increasing stall speed. You mentioned 80 degrees and I can imagine that this might offer the quickest way of getting a fighter pointing in reverse, but it would produce substantially greater height loss for an engine out Europa, quite apart from stressing it to 5.76g and increasing the stall speed to around 100kts, or higher if you are flying at US mauw. My two penny (cents?) worth on stall/spin accidents, SmartASSes and the like and a practical application of the Rogers findings, is on the club website >>Flying>>Flight Safety, for what it is worth. If you would like to turn your email advice into an article, I would happily add that to this website eection. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2016-04-27 06:55, Bud Yerly wrote: William, A distracted pilot is a link in an accident chain to be sure. Thanks for sharing your experience. Frankly I needed it. We used to have a safety magazine with a "There I Was" section of cartoons (with a message) before the real there I was near mishap article someone shared. Although I am a keep it simple kind of guy, gear warning and stall warning systems work. Are they worth the cost, effort to install, troubleshoot, fine tune, and test? Normally Yes. Are slow speed voice warning systems better than the stall rumble strips, or visual AOA systems, tones, "Bitching Bettys" and are they worth it on a straight wing aircraft? Not to me, but they are another tool to help cue the distracted or tired pilot to the old feeling that something is wrong. Probably time to add a slow speed switch to 12AY. Alas, if you get used to hearing the slow speed warning or seeing the red AOA arrow because a system isn't calibrated, we ignore it when we may need it the most. When something is wrong, or it doesn't feel right, go around and get your stuff together always works. Yes, I do carry a piddle pack and have had to use it to relieve "cockpit stress". What's the cost of a prop, engine repair and wheel well repair vs. the time and cost of a gear up warning system? Your choice. What's the cost of loss of a plane/life due to a mishap caused by a non proficient, distracted, or fatigued pilot. Priceless to us all. And you're all lying if you haven't been there. Know you limitations. Whether you are experience or not, practice, practice, practice. Know your airplane, its stall characteristics, and in my case I fly it to its limits every time I do a practice hop. I don't do touch and goes. I do very low approaches where I slow flight down the runway for a 1000 feet just inches from the runway, perfectly aligned and it makes me keep flying the airplane rather than that old relaxation on landing habit we fall into, and my touchdowns are at 45 instead of 50. (My tires don't wear out either.) Don't put yourself into situations where you are overly fatigued. (No more afternoon takeoffs and long three hops to get home, as I have a credit card and am not afraid to use it at any hotel.) Never take anything for granted, use the checklist, know your pitch, power settings and speeds. Become a student of aviation again, take the time to read (Google just about any topic and you get a wealth of info, try "pitch and power flying"). We do things as old (read as experienced) aviators from muscle memory, but the brain muscle is the most important tool, and we have to sharpen a tool to use it effectively. Develop good habits by breaking old ones. Read articles again on flying and techniques to get the brain juices flowing again. The Rotax and Airmaster have made me a lazy pilot. It is easy to push the power forward and pull the stick back and the houses get smaller, but it is power that makes us climb, not pitch alone (for long anyway) and occasionally I wish I had my GIB (Guy In Back in the F-4) to tell me to "Start doing some of that pilot SH T and get us out of here." or the famous "Doesn't all that shaking and beeping and rudder pedal vibration bother you?" as he locks his knees together at high AOA to prevent a departure from controlled flight. Practice routinely, know your airplane well, know the proper site pictures, pitch and power settings and install rumble strips on the leading edge to allow the aircraft feel to warn you of an approach to the stall. Then set and calibrate your EFIS/Stall Warn/AOA system to warn of a low speed situation/gear up or accelerated stall in the turn to keep you honest when you're not having your best day. Practice simulated engine out approaches, no flaps, partial power situations. Develop a passenger brief. Practice an emergency ground egress as if you just departed the runway and found one of our Florida water filled ditches and need to get unstrapped and out quickly. Climb up three mistakes high and do power on and off stalls. Practice unload for control drills. The plane won't stall if the AOA is zero. (Unload for control is an old military drill where the aircraft is flown to a high pitch attitude and the aircraft is unloaded to a quarter G (just getting light in the seat, not negative) and allowing the plane to fall through.) It teaches what an unload feels like when you are in need of full power instant acceleration to get out of trouble at slow speed rather than the push the stick forward drills I see our local instructors do. What happens when at 75 knots in a full power climb and you pull the power, count to three (reaction time) and try to do a 180. I've done a 180 in less than a couple hundred feet, but 80 degrees of bank pulling at the burble is not a recommended thing to do, can I do it, yes, will I do it rather than go for the golf course, no. If I goof it up, I'll get killed, if I hit a tree and land in it or hit a sand trap, I'll survive. Stretch a glide by slowing to near stall speed and watching the VSI, then do it at 75 and note the difference. Pull the power to idle on base and glide at best glide speed and see how your pattern is affected. Then do practice engine out approaches. Bottom line, If I haven't flown in thirty days, I go practice much of the above. If I haven't flown in 60 days, I fly with an instructor if I can find one, and if I can't, I go with another current experienced pilot and or take it in baby steps to get the pitch and power down, checklist operations, air work, emergency procedures and finally landings, at least three. Normal low approaches to get the feel of the pattern, then a normal full flap touch and go, no flap touch and go, full stop, min roll takeoff and soft field landing. All the FARs in the US say is to fly alone, I can go nearly 24 months (last BFR) if I want and then do three takeoffs and landings and I can take folks up with me on a cross country (DUH). My two cents, Trying to live longer. Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: William Bliss Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 4:37 PM Subject: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage Hi All Just thought I would tell you how I had long flight last weekend. Arriving back at the farm strip aching for a pee I had to do a low pass to clear the sheep. That quickly done, downwind checks and on finals sizing up the crosswind I became aware of a voice telling me to check I had the wheel down. I had not got the locking catch properly in place. Sorted. I would say the investment in the SmartASS has paid off.... William Bliss G-WUFF ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ics.com .com .matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:11 PM PST US From: Alain Chabert Subject: Europa-List: Flydat error 06 Hello everyone Anybody know what is a "error 06" displayed on the Flydat when starting a Rotax? I find nowhere an explanation. Thanks for your help Regards -- *Alain CHABERT Europa N275* __ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:02 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Rotax Engine Troubleshooting From: "Remi Guerner" Thank you Bud for your interesting memo on the maintenance of the Rotax. This confirm my personal experience: maintaining these engines is time consuming and becomes very expensive when you have to replace parts, actually a lot more time consuming and significantly more expensive than for any four cylinder Lycoming or Continental. Regards Remi Guerner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455728#455728 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:54 PM PST US From: david park Subject: Europa-List: Exhaust Springs Old and new. Found one broken while replacing due corrosion? Dave Park G-LDVO Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:23 PM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc Bud, I am talking about a 45 degree turn at 50 kts flaps down, which has a 445 ft diameter, and which is my chosen manoeuvre for turning in tight circumstances like an EFATO if all ahead is disaster, or in a valley situation if you cannot climb out the end in front of you. As detailed in my article reproduced in the Flight Safety section on the club website, I have practiced this repeatedly at a safe height and know that I can turn through 360 degrees with height loss of just 440 ft (A 360 is convenient in being able to measure it precisely in relation to some linear feature, but an actual turn back would be more of a tear drop and likely to entail less turning and less height loss.) This is using normal balanced flying techniques, eye balling the 45 degrees and maintaining the airspeed at 50kts with the elevator. For me this is an entirely practical mode of turning in a tight situation, that does not need advanced aerobatic training, that fits the totally convincing mathematical analysis, and which is well within the capabilities of the average pilot to go and practice on his own until he is comfortable with it. It is for each pilot to find what speed he is comfortable with, but to my mind he would be ill advised to depart from the theoretical optimum of 45 degrees Bank. But perhaps the worst plan is to try to learn on the way down, having just been confronted by your first EFATO, and never having practiced what works for you. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2016-05-01 20:10, Bud Yerly wrote: > David, > Double check. Diameter is about 800 feet, level 45 degrees, at 75 KTAS. See http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html [1] > I'm playing fast and loose with the calcs also. > Only during the turn is the altitude loss disregarded and using the now disproven Newtonian physics, 1/2 at squared for 3 to 4 seconds is 145 to 257 feet. > > Keep in mind the turn is near 90 degrees entered and exited with an unloaded roll using every bit of the lift vector pointed to the center of the turn maximizing rate of turn while pulling at 75 knots in the burble of the stall. The G loading is only about 1.4 Gs by feel. The rate of turn is outstanding as one could imagine and the radius very small. However, if entered with any more than Zero to 1/4 G roll or exited in the same, the altitude loss and time goes up. (Case in point: If one attempts a 20 degree nose high, 1 G, 360 degree aileron roll, I bet you will complete the roll 60-80 degrees nose low and in a high speed dive.) Never do rapid loaded 1 G roll in a fast roll attempt. Stan and I did this because it is the "Impossible Turn". Well that is a red flag to a bull to Stan and later I followed along so as not to be outdone. (The ego is a terrible thing.) > > I was flying in a customers aircraft (I trimmed) and just finished full aft stick stall practice (his plane is really a nice flyer), and asked if I could try something I hadn't practiced in a while. I did the so called impossible turn at 3500 AGL to see if I could still come close, as I hadn't practiced it in some time. 350 feet. Owner tried it, a couple times and lost over a 1000 feet. He is an excellent pilot, CFI, but not a practicing CFI any longer, current, very comfortable in the aircraft, but not at max performance. We mused about whether one would actually try something like that down low, and agreed that without extensive practice and ideal conditions, it was not sensible. But it can be done in a controlled environment. > > If a turn back is attempted using normal level turn type techniques you are right, the altitude loss is terrible. Please folks, let us not get into a sailplane discussion here where the simulated tow rope break is done. The Europa short wing is not a sailplane. It can roll very well, and if straight and true, the pilot practiced, it can be flown well into the stall. (Especially if the stall strips are placed properly.) If one breaks into a spin during a hard turn, the plane is out of rig or flown out of trim or side slipped by the pilot . If aileron is introduced at any time during the stall, the down aileron will stall first and as you well know nothing good will happen after that. Usually a snap will occur. Back seaters would keep their knees together to keep the tendency from trying to correct roll with aileron at the stall, the rudder is the tool to use with a well trained foot. > > These techniques are well taught in most aerobatic and out of control recover maneuvering, also called upset training. Any load or backpressure in a turn defeats the roll rate, aggravates the lateral trim/rig, and can lead to a snap. If you can't fly into a stall without fear, there is a reason. IT IS NOT TAUGHT ANY LONGER. The folks that have flown with me know I am conservative, but comfortable in the corners of the envelope. I test the aircraft here until I can fly them without reference to the ball, only looking over the nose until the plane is coaxed into the stall and begins to mush straight ahead. Then I do it in harder turns. A stall is a stall. The same rules apply, only the G loading changes. We slow flight here in gentle turns very near the burble with confidence. Most folks do not get their plane rigged properly. Take the time and do it. An out of rig airplane is a snake in the grass and dangerous. Fly well away from the stall and straight and level until you ge t the plane fixed. If the plane is OK and you can't, then avoid the area or get some training. Even though the information is known, without practice and confidence, the application of the knowledge for the first time is fraught with disaster. Knowledge is worthless without practice and currency. > > As Dirty Harry said: A mans got to know his limitations. I know I try to. My limits seem to be increasing every day I get older. Currency and familiarity are necessary. If I am not current, I fly an airline profile and get a lot of practice. Fly as your instructors have taught you. Pay attention to your skills. If it feels uncomfortable, don't do it until you get proper training. If your plane can't get to the stall without rolling tendencies, fix it. > > Be conservative when close to the ground. As I mentioned to Will, my three mistakes altitude is about 3000 AGL but: > > "My personal floor is 1000 AGL now for any cruising or maneuvering. I fly pretty much straight and level, and no more than 45 degrees of bank and do not slow below glide speed below that. Below 1000 feet you are in the > low altitude structure and that is a different discipline. Low altitude maneuvering or military low level training were disciplines well regulated and trained for extensively. Your time to disaster is very short." > > Regards, > Bud Yerly > > FROM: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > SENT: Sunday, May 01, 2016 7:57 AM > TO: europa-list@matronics.com > SUBJECT: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc > > Bud & William, This has the makings of a rich seam of discussion! Firstly William, I have been a bit sloppy in talking about my stall speed. In various formal tests for initial permit and annual renewal I have recorded it at between 39 and 43 kts with flaps down (and 48 -50kts clean) with loadings between 1210 and1370lbs. I have tended to do my experiments on turn back height loss at different bank angles flying solo so think more in terms of the lower figure, and on occasions when the wings are polished and bug free and the wing root gaps freshly sealed, I have recorded 38kts. > > Stall speed vs Bank: The pilot's handbook for the mono XS talks of 44 kts level Max AUW stall speed. If you take that, the stall speed for different bank angles would be: 45 Deg = 52kts; 60 deg = 62kts: 70deg = 76 kts; 80 deg = 108kts (these figures and those to follow are available in most standard flight texts or on line at www.csgnetwork.com [2]). These stall speeds at 70 or 80 degree bank are enough to persuade me that steep turns in an engine off situation are a recipe for disaster. I once, for fun did a deliberate stall in a steep turn (probably around 75degs) and found myself immediately in a spin. Richard Iddon did something similar but found himself in an inverted spin! > > Turning Circles: Bud you have suggested 800ft as the diameter of turn for at 45 degree bank will have a turn diameter of 800 ft but the actual figure from standard tables is 445ft, and assuming that the pilot has had the wit to turn into whatever cross wind there is, he will have drifted much or all of this back to the centre line by the time he has completed his 180 turn. > > Height Loss: You also imply that you effectively turn the plane on its side and let it go in free fall downwards rather than flying it in a balanced way so maybe we are talking about something rather different. However I have a bit of problem with your maths. You do not fall at 32 ft per sec - you accelerate downwards at 32 ft per second per second and 10 secs of free fall takes you 1600ft - not good news! > > Finally can I say again that the good starting point for dealing with an EFATO is doing just what your instructor told you - land ahead. If you are looking to improve your skills and planning not to become the 9th Europa pilot to succumb to a stall/spin disaster, then I would strongly recommend working out a system of turn back that works for you and practice it until you can do it with minimal thought > > Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ > > On 2016-04-30 18:12, Bud Yerly wrote: > > David, > Not to open a can of worms. > I have read the same study. In most aircraft with slow roll and high drag, he is correct. On the average, a 45 degree bank gives a higher turn rate and you still have 70% of your lift available to arrest your descent. > > Stan Sutterfield (another fighter pilot smart ass and Reno competitor) and I did this in a couple of aircraft. In the Europa for instance, the roll rate, if you unload to 1/4 G is very good (100 degrees per second). A pull to the verge of stall near 80 or so degrees of bank at 75 KTS (the FAA recommends 70 degrees to be the maximum of any turn of course) , turns the aircraft at three times the rate at 75 knots. So it will take about 3 seconds to do a 180 and the radius of turn is 200 feet. REMEMBER, NO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN ALTITUDE! The average pilot needs 3 seconds to react while climbing and one second to roll in a second to pull, and the same two seconds to roll out. That is 10 seconds from straight ahead, to complete 180. Falling at 32.2 FPS, the plane will drop 320 feet because gravity works 24/7. Accounting for upward momentum during the three seconds to react at a 15 degree deck angle of 75 feet, once can see that the a completed well practiced turn can be done in les s than 300 feet. The aircraft pitch will go from 15 degrees up to 15 degrees down and still leave you with a descent glide if done at 800 feet and about 75 knots on completion. > > The 45 degree of bank will take an agonizing 10 seconds, then add the reaction time, and the loss of altitude in a power off turn is staggering and the diameter of the turn is well off the centerline by 800 feet. Now you have another turn to do. That's dumb. > > I have done this maniac maneuver at altitude and once in the pattern (scared the crap out of everyone and I was at 800 feet and younger then) and it works. (Stan did it in a 172, but he is quite skilled.) I have had a couple of clients try it and without dedicated maneuver practice and years of training, lost amazing altitude and buried the nose. Without the training and practice, this is one of those bar stories and fun things to practice three mistakes high, but totally useless. Like racing airplanes at low altitude or doing Red Bull air racing. Fun for the pilot, exciting to watch, but totally useless and expensive. Besides my wife said no... > > As you so wonderfully said "I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you". is the most sage advice one can give a fellow pilot. > > NEVER DO A 180 as either it will kill you due to altitude loss or stall, or the sudden stop will! Turn only as necessary to hit something soft. Then open the door and step out and call the insurance company. > > Best Regards, > Bud Yerly > > FROM: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > SENT: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 5:19 PM > TO: europa-list@matronics.com > SUBJECT: Re: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage > > Bud, excellent advice and I am envious of the F4 experience! I hesitate to quibble but there is one point I would like to offer a view contrary to what you appear to be saying. That is on the most efficient way to turn in an engine out situation if you are going to turn - and I hasten to add that I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you, and as you say, and critically, you have practiced all the relevant skills. > > One of your countrymen , David Rogers, professor at US Naval Academy, Indianapolis, who clearly has high order mathematical skills, has shown definitively that the most efficient way of turning, (that is the way of turning through any given number of degrees with minimum height loss) is to turn at 45 degrees bank at as slow a speed as you can sensibly maintain without falling out of the sky. Any more or any less bank increases the height loss, quite apart from rapidly increasing stall speed. You mentioned 80 degrees and I can imagine that this might offer the quickest way of getting a fighter pointing in reverse, but it would produce substantially greater height loss for an engine out Europa, quite apart from stressing it to 5.76g and increasing the stall speed to around 100kts, or higher if you are flying at US mauw. > > My two penny (cents?) worth on stall/spin accidents, SmartASSes and the like and a practical application of the Rogers findings, is on the club website >>Flying>>Flight Safety, for what it is worth. If you would like to turn your email advice into an article, I would happily add that to this website eection. > > Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ > > On 2016-04-27 06:55, Bud Yerly wrote: > > > William, > A distracted pilot is a link in an accident chain to be sure. Thanks for sharing your experience. Frankly I needed it. We used to have a safety magazine with a "There I Was" section of cartoons (with a message) before the real there I was near mishap article someone shared. > > Although I am a keep it simple kind of guy, gear warning and stall warning systems work. Are they worth the cost, effort to install, troubleshoot, fine tune, and test? Normally Yes. > Are slow speed voice warning systems better than the stall rumble strips, or visual AOA systems, tones, "Bitching Bettys" and are they worth it on a straight wing aircraft? Not to me, but they are another tool to help cue the distracted or tired pilot to the old feeling that something is wrong. Probably time to add a slow speed switch to 12AY. Alas, if you get used to hearing the slow speed warning or seeing the red AOA arrow because a system isn't calibrated, we ignore it when we may need it the most. When something is wrong, or it doesn't feel right, go around and get your stuff together always works. Yes, I do carry a piddle pack and have had to use it to relieve "cockpit stress". > > What's the cost of a prop, engine repair and wheel well repair vs. the time and cost of a gear up warning system? Your choice. > What's the cost of loss of a plane/life due to a mishap caused by a non proficient, distracted, or fatigued pilot. Priceless to us all. And you're all lying if you haven't been there. Know you limitations. > > Whether you are experience or not, practice, practice, practice. Know your airplane, its stall characteristics, and in my case I fly it to its limits every time I do a practice hop. I don't do touch and goes. I do very low approaches where I slow flight down the runway for a 1000 feet just inches from the runway, perfectly aligned and it makes me keep flying the airplane rather than that old relaxation on landing habit we fall into, and my touchdowns are at 45 instead of 50. (My tires don't wear out either.) Don't put yourself into situations where you are overly fatigued. (No more afternoon takeoffs and long three hops to get home, as I have a credit card and am not afraid to use it at any hotel.) Never take anything for granted, use the checklist, know your pitch, power settings and speeds. Become a student of aviation again, take the time to read (Google just about any topic and you get a wealth of info, try "pitch and power flying"). We do things as old (read as experie nced) aviators from muscle memory, but the brain muscle is the most important tool, and we have to sharpen a tool to use it effectively. > > Develop good habits by breaking old ones. Read articles again on flying and techniques to get the brain juices flowing again. The Rotax and Airmaster have made me a lazy pilot. It is easy to push the power forward and pull the stick back and the houses get smaller, but it is power that makes us climb, not pitch alone (for long anyway) and occasionally I wish I had my GIB (Guy In Back in the F-4) to tell me to "Start doing some of that pilot SH T and get us out of here." or the famous "Doesn't all that shaking and beeping and rudder pedal vibration bother you?" as he locks his knees together at high AOA to prevent a departure from controlled flight. > > Practice routinely, know your airplane well, know the proper site pictures, pitch and power settings and install rumble strips on the leading edge to allow the aircraft feel to warn you of an approach to the stall. Then set and calibrate your EFIS/Stall Warn/AOA system to warn of a low speed situation/gear up or accelerated stall in the turn to keep you honest when you're not having your best day. Practice simulated engine out approaches, no flaps, partial power situations. Develop a passenger brief. Practice an emergency ground egress as if you just departed the runway and found one of our Florida water filled ditches and need to get unstrapped and out quickly. Climb up three mistakes high and do power on and off stalls. Practice unload for control drills. The plane won't stall if the AOA is zero. (Unload for control is an old military drill where the aircraft is flown to a high pitch attitude and the aircraft is unloaded to a quarter G (just getting light in the seat, not negative) and allowing the plane to fall through.) It teaches what an unload feels like when you are in need of full power instant acceleration to get out of trouble at slow speed rather than the push the stick forward drills I see our local instructors do. What happens when at 75 knots in a full power climb and you pull the power, count to three (reaction time) and try to do a 180. I've done a 180 in less than a couple hundred feet, but 80 degrees of bank pulling at the burble is not a recommended thing to do, can I do it, yes, will I do it rather than go for the golf course, no. If I goof it up, I'll get killed, if I hit a tree and land in it or hit a sand trap, I'll survive. Stretch a glide by slowing to near stall speed and watching the VSI, then do it at 75 and note the difference. Pull the power to idle on base and glide at best glide speed and see how your pattern is affected. Then do practice engine out approaches. Bottom line, If I haven't flown in thirty days, I go practice much of the above. If I haven't flown in 60 days, I fly with an instructor if I can find one, and if I can't, I go with another current experienced pilot and or take it in baby steps to get the pitch and power down, checklist operations, air work, emergency procedures and finally landings, at least three. Normal low approaches to get the feel of the pattern, then a normal full flap touch and go, no flap touch and go, full stop, min roll takeoff and soft field landing. > > All the FARs in the US say is to fly alone, I can go nearly 24 months (last BFR) if I want and then do three takeoffs and landings and I can take folks up with me on a cross country (DUH). > > My two cents, > Trying to live longer. > Bud Yerly > > -----Original Message----- From: William Bliss Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 4:37 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage > > > Hi All > Just thought I would tell you how I had long flight last weekend. > Arriving back at the farm strip aching for a pee I had to do a low pass > to clear the sheep. That quickly done, downwind checks and on finals > sizing up the crosswind I became aware of a voice telling me to check I > had the wheel down. I had not got the locking catch properly in place. > Sorted. I would say the investment in the SmartASS has paid off.... > William Bliss G-WUFF > > ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ics.com > .com > .matronics.com/contribution Links: ------ [1] http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html [2] http://www.csgnetwork.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:43 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Rotax Engine Troubleshooting Remi, If you saw the Lycomings around my EAA Chapter here, I am thankful for my Rotax. In Florida I am alarmed at how often cylinders are losing compression at so few hours, and how nasty and oily they are. I've spent only a few thousand in over 300 hours. But my experiment with ethanol caused most of it. It is what Gary Leinberger calls "The Dumb Tax". Boy does that learning curve cost a bunch of money. Hopefully this will help some folks stop the bleeding of time on the secrets the Rotax factory does not want to put out. Even the classes are disappointing to the more experienced guy. Regards, Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: Remi Guerner Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 3:43 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Rotax Engine Troubleshooting Thank you Bud for your interesting memo on the maintenance of the Rotax. This confirm my personal experience: maintaining these engines is time consuming and becomes very expensive when you have to replace parts, actually a lot more time consuming and significantly more expensive than for any four cylinder Lycoming or Continental. Regards Remi Guerner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455728#455728 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:15 PM PST US From: Bob Harrison Subject: RE: Europa-List: Torque Tube Clamp SGkhIFBhdWwsDQpJIHN1cHBseSB0aGVtLiBJIHdpbGwgZm9sbG93IHVwIHdoZW4gSSBnZXQgYmFj ayB0byBteSBjb21wdXRlci4NClRoYW5rcw0KQm9iIEhhcnJpc29uIA0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFs IE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogUGF1bCBIYXdraW5zDQpTZW50OiAyOS8wOS8yMDE1IDEyOjE3 DQpUbzogZXVyb3BhLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQ0KU3ViamVjdDogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFRv cnF1ZSBUdWJlIENsYW1wDQoNCi0tPiBFdXJvcGEtTGlzdCBtZXNzYWdlIHBvc3RlZCBieTogUGF1 bCBIYXdraW5zIDxwd2hhd2tpbnNidWlsZGVyc0Bob3RtYWlsLmNvbT4NCg0KDQpIaSBjaGFwcywg d2hlcmUgY2FuIEkgYnV5IHRvcnF1ZSB0dWJlIGNsYW1wcyA/DQoNClJlZ2FyZHMgUGF1bCBIYXdr aW5zDQpHLVJPT1YgWFMgOTE0DQoNCg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IGlQYWQNCg0KXy09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCl8tPSAg ICAgICAgICAtIFRoZSBFdXJvcGEtTGlzdCBFbWFpbCBGb3J1bSAtDQpfLT0gVXNlIHRoZSBNYXRy b25pY3MgTGlzdCBGZWF0dXJlcyBOYXZpZ2F0b3IgdG8gYnJvd3NlDQpfLT0gdGhlIG1hbnkgTGlz dCB1dGlsaXRpZXMgc3VjaCBhcyBMaXN0IFVuL1N1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiwNCl8tPSBBcmNoaXZlIFNl YXJjaCAmIERvd25sb2FkLCA3LURheSBCcm93c2UsIENoYXQsIEZBUSwNCl8tPSBQaG90b3NoYXJl LCBhbmQgbXVjaCBtdWNoIG1vcmU6DQpfLT0NCl8tPSAgIC0tPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmlj cy5jb20vTmF2aWdhdG9yP0V1cm9wYS1MaXN0DQpfLT0NCl8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAtIE1BVFJPTklDUyBXRUIgRk9SVU1TIC0NCl8tPSBTYW1lIGdyZWF0IGNvbnRlbnQgYWxzbyBh dmFpbGFibGUgdmlhIHRoZSBXZWIgRm9ydW1zIQ0KXy09DQpfLT0gICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL2ZvcnVt cy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQpfLT0NCl8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAgLSBMaXN0IENvbnRy aWJ1dGlvbiBXZWIgU2l0ZSAtDQpfLT0gIFRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgeW91ciBnZW5lcm91cyBzdXBw b3J0IQ0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLU1hdHQgRHJhbGxlLCBMaXN0 IEFkbWluLg0KXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9jb250cmlidXRpb24N Cl8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09DQoNCg0KDQo ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:20 PM PST US From: "Bud Yerly" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc David, I see. So you are using the flapped approach configuration getting the tightest turn you can get in power off slow flight. It is hard for me because speed is life. Energy must be preserved. There are a number of articles and even videos now on the subject, so I agree the idea of practice and knowing your aircraft is essential. For me, I will stick with picking something soft and keeping the plane flying at best glide rather than trying a low altitude hard turn, clean or flapped, and then a turn back if necessary to make it to a runway. The displacement problem is a real issue. The whole idea of turning back to land down wind on a fairly short field really doesn=99t make sense, especially loaded. Even with the grand climb rate the Europa is capable of, by the time I hit the end of the runway, I=99m not over 300 feet at my airport. Just too low to do anything but go straight ahead, well almost straight. 1000 feet, optimum day, maybe a turn back with a glide ratio we have. I=99m not lowering the flaps, speed is life, I know my plane and how to fly it within my and the planes limits. As you eluded to, pick what you are going to do and occasionally go out and practice inflight emergencies. I must admit, I chair fly my forced landings around my airport and while flying with folks checking out, survey heights, the amount of turn and places to land and what the field looks like as far as obstacles and the like. I do a number of first flights and local knowledge is essential. I do a lot of =9CI can land there=9D. You have got to watch the u-tube video on the Cub doing the turn at 400 feet and aligning himself up. High bank, unloaded turns and missed the runway because he was too high. He is a skilled guy in the Cub, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byBh1Qd6IgA There is another with a couple of death defying folks doing 180s at 200 feet. Duh. In my mountain flying courses the turn around in the blind valley is one of the drills. You fly in a shallow climb until you realize you can=99t clear the ridge, then do a flapped turn and clean turn. At low density altitude, you=99re OK, at high density altitude you are between a rock and hard place aren=99t you. Dropping flaps slows the plane more, and it can and will put you behind the power curve and may work to save your life, or allow you to hit something slower at high power. Alaska is dotted with wrecks, as we all know, of folks fixated on the ground rather than looking for the safe out and flying the plane within their capabilities and turning around while they can. Keep your speed and head up. Know what works for you. Bud Yerly From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 5:15 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc Bud, I am talking about a 45 degree turn at 50 kts flaps down, which has a 445 ft diameter, and which is my chosen manoeuvre for turning in tight circumstances like an EFATO if all ahead is disaster, or in a valley situation if you cannot climb out the end in front of you. As detailed in my article reproduced in the Flight Safety section on the club website, I have practiced this repeatedly at a safe height and know that I can turn through 360 degrees with height loss of just 440 ft (A 360 is convenient in being able to measure it precisely in relation to some linear feature, but an actual turn back would be more of a tear drop and likely to entail less turning and less height loss.) This is using normal balanced flying techniques, eye balling the 45 degrees and maintaining the airspeed at 50kts with the elevator. For me this is an entirely practical mode of turning in a tight situation, that does not need advanced aerobatic training, that fits the totally convincing mathematical analysis, and which is well within the capabilities of the average pilot to go and practice on his own until he is comfortable with it. It is for each pilot to find what speed he is comfortable with, but to my mind he would be ill advised to depart from the theoretical optimum of 45 degrees Bank. But perhaps the worst plan is to try to learn on the way down, having just been confronted by your first EFATO, and never having practiced what works for you. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2016-05-01 20:10, Bud Yerly wrote: David, Double check. Diameter is about 800 feet, level 45 degrees, at 75 KTAS. See http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html I'm playing fast and loose with the calcs also. Only during the turn is the altitude loss disregarded and using the now disproven Newtonian physics, 1/2 at squared for 3 to 4 seconds is 145 to 257 feet. Keep in mind the turn is near 90 degrees entered and exited with an unloaded roll using every bit of the lift vector pointed to the center of the turn maximizing rate of turn while pulling at 75 knots in the burble of the stall. The G loading is only about 1.4 Gs by feel. The rate of turn is outstanding as one could imagine and the radius very small. However, if entered with any more than Zero to 1/4 G roll or exited in the same, the altitude loss and time goes up. (Case in point: If one attempts a 20 degree nose high, 1 G, 360 degree aileron roll, I bet you will complete the roll 60-80 degrees nose low and in a high speed dive.) Never do rapid loaded 1 G roll in a fast roll attempt. Stan and I did this because it is the "Impossible Turn". Well that is a red flag to a bull to Stan and later I followed along so as not to be outdone. (The ego is a terrible thing.) I was flying in a customers aircraft (I trimmed) and just finished full aft stick stall practice (his plane is really a nice flyer), and asked if I could try something I hadn't practiced in a while. I did the so called impossible turn at 3500 AGL to see if I could still come close, as I hadn't practiced it in some time. 350 feet. Owner tried it, a couple times and lost over a 1000 feet. He is an excellent pilot, CFI, but not a practicing CFI any longer, current, very comfortable in the aircraft, but not at max performance. We mused about whether one would actually try something like that down low, and agreed that without extensive practice and ideal conditions, it was not sensible. But it can be done in a controlled environment. If a turn back is attempted using normal level turn type techniques you are right, the altitude loss is terrible. Please folks, let us not get into a sailplane discussion here where the simulated tow rope break is done. The Europa short wing is not a sailplane. It can roll very well, and if straight and true, the pilot practiced, it can be flown well into the stall. (Especially if the stall strips are placed properly.) If one breaks into a spin during a hard turn, the plane is out of rig or flown out of trim or side slipped by the pilot . If aileron is introduced at any time during the stall, the down aileron will stall first and as you well know nothing good will happen after that. Usually a snap will occur. Back seaters would keep their knees together to keep the tendency from trying to correct roll with aileron at the stall, the rudder is the tool to use with a well trained foot. These techniques are well taught in most aerobatic and out of control recover maneuvering, also called upset training. Any load or backpressure in a turn defeats the roll rate, aggravates the lateral trim/rig, and can lead to a snap. If you can't fly into a stall without fear, there is a reason. It is not taught any longer. The folks that have flown with me know I am conservative, but comfortable in the corners of the envelope. I test the aircraft here until I can fly them without reference to the ball, only looking over the nose until the plane is coaxed into the stall and begins to mush straight ahead. Then I do it in harder turns. A stall is a stall. The same rules apply, only the G loading changes. We slow flight here in gentle turns very near the burble with confidence. Most folks do not get their plane rigged properly. Take the time and do it. An out of rig airplane is a snake in the grass and dangerous. Fly well away from the stall and straight and level until you get the plane fixed. If the plane is OK and you can't, then avoid the area or get some training. Even though the information is known, without practice and confidence, the application of the knowledge for the first time is fraught with disaster. Knowledge is worthless without practice and currency. As Dirty Harry said: A mans got to know his limitations. I know I try to. My limits seem to be increasing every day I get older. Currency and familiarity are necessary. If I am not current, I fly an airline profile and get a lot of practice. Fly as your instructors have taught you. Pay attention to your skills. If it feels uncomfortable, don't do it until you get proper training. If your plane can't get to the stall without rolling tendencies, fix it. Be conservative when close to the ground. As I mentioned to Will, my three mistakes altitude is about 3000 AGL but: "My personal floor is 1000 AGL now for any cruising or maneuvering. I fly pretty much straight and level, and no more than 45 degrees of bank and do not slow below glide speed below that. Below 1000 feet you are in the low altitude structure and that is a different discipline. Low altitude maneuvering or military low level training were disciplines well regulated and trained for extensively. Your time to disaster is very short." Regards, Bud Yerly From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 7:57 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc Bud & William, This has the makings of a rich seam of discussion! Firstly William, I have been a bit sloppy in talking about my stall speed. In various formal tests for initial permit and annual renewal I have recorded it at between 39 and 43 kts with flaps down (and 48 -50kts clean) with loadings between 1210 and1370lbs. I have tended to do my experiments on turn back height loss at different bank angles flying solo so think more in terms of the lower figure, and on occasions when the wings are polished and bug free and the wing root gaps freshly sealed, I have recorded 38kts. Stall speed vs Bank: The pilot's handbook for the mono XS talks of 44 kts level Max AUW stall speed. If you take that, the stall speed for different bank angles would be: 45 Deg = 52kts; 60 deg = 62kts: 70deg = 76 kts; 80 deg = 108kts (these figures and those to follow are available in most standard flight texts or on line at www.csgnetwork.com). These stall speeds at 70 or 80 degree bank are enough to persuade me that steep turns in an engine off situation are a recipe for disaster. I once, for fun did a deliberate stall in a steep turn (probably around 75degs) and found myself immediately in a spin. Richard Iddon did something similar but found himself in an inverted spin! Turning Circles: Bud you have suggested 800ft as the diameter of turn for at 45 degree bank will have a turn diameter of 800 ft but the actual figure from standard tables is 445ft, and assuming that the pilot has had the wit to turn into whatever cross wind there is, he will have drifted much or all of this back to the centre line by the time he has completed his 180 turn. Height Loss: You also imply that you effectively turn the plane on its side and let it go in free fall downwards rather than flying it in a balanced way so maybe we are talking about something rather different. However I have a bit of problem with your maths. You do not fall at 32 ft per sec - you accelerate downwards at 32 ft per second per second and 10 secs of free fall takes you 1600ft - not good news! Finally can I say again that the good starting point for dealing with an EFATO is doing just what your instructor told you - land ahead. If you are looking to improve your skills and planning not to become the 9th Europa pilot to succumb to a stall/spin disaster, then I would strongly recommend working out a system of turn back that works for you and practice it until you can do it with minimal thought Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2016-04-30 18:12, Bud Yerly wrote: David, Not to open a can of worms. I have read the same study. In most aircraft with slow roll and high drag, he is correct. On the average, a 45 degree bank gives a higher turn rate and you still have 70% of your lift available to arrest your descent. Stan Sutterfield (another fighter pilot smart ass and Reno competitor) and I did this in a couple of aircraft. In the Europa for instance, the roll rate, if you unload to 1/4 G is very good (100 degrees per second). A pull to the verge of stall near 80 or so degrees of bank at 75 KTS (the FAA recommends 70 degrees to be the maximum of any turn of course) , turns the aircraft at three times the rate at 75 knots. So it will take about 3 seconds to do a 180 and the radius of turn is 200 feet. REMEMBER, NO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN ALTITUDE! The average pilot needs 3 seconds to react while climbing and one second to roll in a second to pull, and the same two seconds to roll out. That is 10 seconds from straight ahead, to complete 180. Falling at 32.2 FPS, the plane will drop 320 feet because gravity works 24/7. Accounting for upward momentum during the three seconds to react at a 15 degree deck angle of 75 feet, once can see that the a completed well practiced turn can be done in less than 300 feet. The aircraft pitch will go from 15 degrees up to 15 degrees down and still leave you with a descent glide if done at 800 feet and about 75 knots on completion. The 45 degree of bank will take an agonizing 10 seconds, then add the reaction time, and the loss of altitude in a power off turn is staggering and the diameter of the turn is well off the centerline by 800 feet. Now you have another turn to do. That's dumb. I have done this maniac maneuver at altitude and once in the pattern (scared the crap out of everyone and I was at 800 feet and younger then) and it works. (Stan did it in a 172, but he is quite skilled.) I have had a couple of clients try it and without dedicated maneuver practice and years of training, lost amazing altitude and buried the nose. Without the training and practice, this is one of those bar stories and fun things to practice three mistakes high, but totally useless. Like racing airplanes at low altitude or doing Red Bull air racing. Fun for the pilot, exciting to watch, but totally useless and expensive. Besides my wife said no... As you so wonderfully said "I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you". is the most sage advice one can give a fellow pilot. NEVER DO A 180 as either it will kill you due to altitude loss or stall, or the sudden stop will! Turn only as necessary to hit something soft. Then open the door and step out and call the insurance company. Best Regards, Bud Yerly From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 5:19 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage Bud, excellent advice and I am envious of the F4 experience! I hesitate to quibble but there is one point I would like to offer a view contrary to what you appear to be saying. That is on the most efficient way to turn in an engine out situation if you are going to turn - and I hasten to add that I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you, and as you say, and critically, you have practiced all the relevant skills. One of your countrymen , David Rogers, professor at US Naval Academy, Indianapolis, who clearly has high order mathematical skills, has shown definitively that the most efficient way of turning, (that is the way of turning through any given number of degrees with minimum height loss) is to turn at 45 degrees bank at as slow a speed as you can sensibly maintain without falling out of the sky. Any more or any less bank increases the height loss, quite apart from rapidly increasing stall speed. You mentioned 80 degrees and I can imagine that this might offer the quickest way of getting a fighter pointing in reverse, but it would produce substantially greater height loss for an engine out Europa, quite apart from stressing it to 5.76g and increasing the stall speed to around 100kts, or higher if you are flying at US mauw. My two penny (cents?) worth on stall/spin accidents, SmartASSes and the like and a practical application of the Rogers findings, is on the club website >>Flying>>Flight Safety, for what it is worth. If you would like to turn your email advice into an article, I would happily add that to this website eection. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2016-04-27 06:55, Bud Yerly wrote: William, A distracted pilot is a link in an accident chain to be sure. Thanks for sharing your experience. Frankly I needed it. We used to have a safety magazine with a "There I Was" section of cartoons (with a message) before the real there I was near mishap article someone shared. Although I am a keep it simple kind of guy, gear warning and stall warning systems work. Are they worth the cost, effort to install, troubleshoot, fine tune, and test? Normally Yes. Are slow speed voice warning systems better than the stall rumble strips, or visual AOA systems, tones, "Bitching Bettys" and are they worth it on a straight wing aircraft? Not to me, but they are another tool to help cue the distracted or tired pilot to the old feeling that something is wrong. Probably time to add a slow speed switch to 12AY. Alas, if you get used to hearing the slow speed warning or seeing the red AOA arrow because a system isn't calibrated, we ignore it when we may need it the most. When something is wrong, or it doesn't feel right, go around and get your stuff together always works. Yes, I do carry a piddle pack and have had to use it to relieve "cockpit stress". What's the cost of a prop, engine repair and wheel well repair vs. the time and cost of a gear up warning system? Your choice. What's the cost of loss of a plane/life due to a mishap caused by a non proficient, distracted, or fatigued pilot. Priceless to us all. And you're all lying if you haven't been there. Know you limitations. Whether you are experience or not, practice, practice, practice. Know your airplane, its stall characteristics, and in my case I fly it to its limits every time I do a practice hop. I don't do touch and goes. I do very low approaches where I slow flight down the runway for a 1000 feet just inches from the runway, perfectly aligned and it makes me keep flying the airplane rather than that old relaxation on landing habit we fall into, and my touchdowns are at 45 instead of 50. (My tires don't wear out either.) Don't put yourself into situations where you are overly fatigued. (No more afternoon takeoffs and long three hops to get home, as I have a credit card and am not afraid to use it at any hotel.) Never take anything for granted, use the checklist, know your pitch, power settings and speeds. Become a student of aviation again, take the time to read (Google just about any topic and you get a wealth of info, try "pitch and power flying"). We do things as old (read as experienced) aviators from muscle memory, but the brain muscle is the most important tool, and we have to sharpen a tool to use it effectively. Develop good habits by breaking old ones. Read articles again on flying and techniques to get the brain juices flowing again. The Rotax and Airmaster have made me a lazy pilot. It is easy to push the power forward and pull the stick back and the houses get smaller, but it is power that makes us climb, not pitch alone (for long anyway) and occasionally I wish I had my GIB (Guy In Back in the F-4) to tell me to "Start doing some of that pilot SH T and get us out of here." or the famous "Doesn't all that shaking and beeping and rudder pedal vibration bother you?" as he locks his knees together at high AOA to prevent a departure from controlled flight. Practice routinely, know your airplane well, know the proper site pictures, pitch and power settings and install rumble strips on the leading edge to allow the aircraft feel to warn you of an approach to the stall. Then set and calibrate your EFIS/Stall Warn/AOA system to warn of a low speed situation/gear up or accelerated stall in the turn to keep you honest when you're not having your best day. Practice simulated engine out approaches, no flaps, partial power situations. Develop a passenger brief. Practice an emergency ground egress as if you just departed the runway and found one of our Florida water filled ditches and need to get unstrapped and out quickly. Climb up three mistakes high and do power on and off stalls. Practice unload for control drills. The plane won't stall if the AOA is zero. (Unload for control is an old military drill where the aircraft is flown to a high pitch attitude and the aircraft is unloaded to a quarter G (just getting light in the seat, not negative) and allowing the plane to fall through.) It teaches what an unload feels like when you are in need of full power instant acceleration to get out of trouble at slow speed rather than the push the stick forward drills I see our local instructors do. What happens when at 75 knots in a full power climb and you pull the power, count to three (reaction time) and try to do a 180. I've done a 180 in less than a couple hundred feet, but 80 degrees of bank pulling at the burble is not a recommended thing to do, can I do it, yes, will I do it rather than go for the golf course, no. If I goof it up, I'll get killed, if I hit a tree and land in it or hit a sand trap, I'll survive. Stretch a glide by slowing to near stall speed and watching the VSI, then do it at 75 and note the difference. Pull the power to idle on base and glide at best glide speed and see how your pattern is affected. Then do practice engine out approaches. Bottom line, If I haven't flown in thirty days, I go practice much of the above. If I haven't flown in 60 days, I fly with an instructor if I can find one, and if I can't, I go with another current experienced pilot and or take it in baby steps to get the pitch and power down, checklist operations, air work, emergency procedures and finally landings, at least three. Normal low approaches to get the feel of the pattern, then a normal full flap touch and go, no flap touch and go, full stop, min roll takeoff and soft field landing. All the FARs in the US say is to fly alone, I can go nearly 24 months (last BFR) if I want and then do three takeoffs and landings and I can take folks up with me on a cross country (DUH). My two cents, Trying to live longer. Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: William Bliss Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 4:37 PM Subject: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage Hi All Just thought I would tell you how I had long flight last weekend. Arriving back at the farm strip aching for a pee I had to do a low pass to clear the sheep. That quickly done, downwind checks and on finals sizing up the crosswind I became aware of a voice telling me to check I had the wheel down. I had not got the locking catch properly in place. Sorted. I would say the investment in the SmartASS has paid off.... William Bliss G-WUFF ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ics.com .com .matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:10 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Europa-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. 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Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "europa-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Europa-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Europa-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/europa-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Europa-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Europa-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Europa-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Europa-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Europa-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Europa-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Europa-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Europa-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Europa-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Europa ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Europa-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Europa-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:39 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Europa-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Europa-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.