---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/02/16: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:04 AM - Re: Turn back was SmartASS etc (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 2. 05:11 AM - Re: Torque Tube Clamp (Pete Lawless) 3. 05:34 AM - Re: Torque Tube Clamp (Rowland Carson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:04:16 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc Bud, Yes. It seems critical to me that folk can deal with these emergencies using normal flying techniques which they can practice without instructor/advanced aerobatic input. At my home airfield, Gloucester, we mostly have westerly winds but on the rare occasions I take off on 09 I pass the airfield boundary at around 700ft and ahead of me is suburban Cheltenham. If the donkey quits and I follow conventional wisdom in landing ahead within 20 or 30 degrees, I rate my survival chances as less than 50%. I might be lucky and hook up in the top of a large tree, but it is much more likely I shall end up hitting something very hard. Asking multiple friends and instructors what they would do produced very few answers that improved on the 50% survival prospect. Nobody advocated Rogers 45 degree slow turn; - most favoured best glide speed at 20 or 30 degree bank. Being of an awkward, argumentative frame of mind I have taken my plane up to a sensible height and done repeated 360 turns in these different configurations carefully measuring height loss. For 45/50 it is 440 ft and for 30/70 it is 1070 So I am confident that I could get back to the airfield from 700 ft at 45/50 whereas I would fail at best glide speed & 30 degrees. In fact I probably wouldn't bother with the airfield as there is a nice golf course after turning just past north. I got involved in all this by happenchance but since then have researched the subject to the best of my ability, and it is clear from AAIB reports that in most instances of stall/spin accidents the pilot has ignored his instructor's rules and has started a turn (but sadly in his stressed state, without having paid any attention to speed control), presumably because he found the view out of the front not to his liking. It is also very apparent that the problem does not just overtake new pilots still wet behind the ears. Eight well seasoned Europa pilots have spun to their death and I am very keen that there should be no more. {This incidentally is not a specially high proportion of the fleet. There are plenty of types with similar or worse records) It is for this reason that I feel it is of great importance that we all have a simple Plan B protocol that we can practice easily and use confidently in an EFATO type situation should Plan A look to be unacceptably dangerous. Regards, David PS A great Rotax problems contribution! AQlready printed off and filed for future reference. On 2016-05-02 01:35, Bud Yerly wrote: > David, > I see. So you are using the flapped approach configuration getting the tightest turn you can get in power off slow flight. It is hard for me because speed is life. Energy must be preserved. > There are a number of articles and even videos now on the subject, so I agree the idea of practice and knowing your aircraft is essential. For me, I will stick with picking something soft and keeping the plane flying at best glide rather than trying a low altitude hard turn, clean or flapped, and then a turn back if necessary to make it to a runway. The displacement problem is a real issue. The whole idea of turning back to land down wind on a fairly short field really doesn't make sense, especially loaded. Even with the grand climb rate the Europa is capable of, by the time I hit the end of the runway, I'm not over 300 feet at my airport. Just too low to do anything but go straight ahead, well almost straight. 1000 feet, optimum day, maybe a turn back with a glide ratio we have. I'm not lowering the flaps, speed is life, I know my plane and how to fly it within my and the planes limits. > > As you eluded to, pick what you are going to do and occasionally go out and practice inflight emergencies. > I must admit, I chair fly my forced landings around my airport and while flying with folks checking out, survey heights, the amount of turn and places to land and what the field looks like as far as obstacles and the like. I do a number of first flights and local knowledge is essential. I do a lot of "I can land there". > > You have got to watch the u-tube video on the Cub doing the turn at 400 feet and aligning himself up. High bank, unloaded turns and missed the runway because he was too high. He is a skilled guy in the Cub, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byBh1Qd6IgA [1] There is another with a couple of death defying folks doing 180s at 200 feet. Duh. > > In my mountain flying courses the turn around in the blind valley is one of the drills. You fly in a shallow climb until you realize you can't clear the ridge, then do a flapped turn and clean turn. At low density altitude, you're OK, at high density altitude you are between a rock and hard place aren't you. Dropping flaps slows the plane more, and it can and will put you behind the power curve and may work to save your life, or allow you to hit something slower at high power. Alaska is dotted with wrecks, as we all know, of folks fixated on the ground rather than looking for the safe out and flying the plane within their capabilities and turning around while they can. > > Keep your speed and head up. Know what works for you. > > Bud Yerly > > FROM: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > SENT: Sunday, May 01, 2016 5:15 PM > TO: europa-list@matronics.com > SUBJECT: Re: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc > > Bud, I am talking about a 45 degree turn at 50 kts flaps down, which has a 445 ft diameter, and which is my chosen manoeuvre for turning in tight circumstances like an EFATO if all ahead is disaster, or in a valley situation if you cannot climb out the end in front of you. > > As detailed in my article reproduced in the Flight Safety section on the club website, I have practiced this repeatedly at a safe height and know that I can turn through 360 degrees with height loss of just 440 ft (A 360 is convenient in being able to measure it precisely in relation to some linear feature, but an actual turn back would be more of a tear drop and likely to entail less turning and less height loss.) This is using normal balanced flying techniques, eye balling the 45 degrees and maintaining the airspeed at 50kts with the elevator. For me this is an entirely practical mode of turning in a tight situation, that does not need advanced aerobatic training, that fits the totally convincing mathematical analysis, and which is well within the capabilities of the average pilot to go and practice on his own until he is comfortable with it. It is for each pilot to find what speed he is comfortable with, but to my mind he would be ill advised to depart from the theoretic al optimum of 45 degrees Bank. But perhaps the worst plan is to try to learn on the way down, having just been confronted by your first EFATO, and never having practiced what works for you. > > Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ > > On 2016-05-01 20:10, Bud Yerly wrote: > > David, > Double check. Diameter is about 800 feet, level 45 degrees, at 75 KTAS. See http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html [2] > I'm playing fast and loose with the calcs also. > Only during the turn is the altitude loss disregarded and using the now disproven Newtonian physics, 1/2 at squared for 3 to 4 seconds is 145 to 257 feet. > > Keep in mind the turn is near 90 degrees entered and exited with an unloaded roll using every bit of the lift vector pointed to the center of the turn maximizing rate of turn while pulling at 75 knots in the burble of the stall. The G loading is only about 1.4 Gs by feel. The rate of turn is outstanding as one could imagine and the radius very small. However, if entered with any more than Zero to 1/4 G roll or exited in the same, the altitude loss and time goes up. (Case in point: If one attempts a 20 degree nose high, 1 G, 360 degree aileron roll, I bet you will complete the roll 60-80 degrees nose low and in a high speed dive.) Never do rapid loaded 1 G roll in a fast roll attempt. Stan and I did this because it is the "Impossible Turn". Well that is a red flag to a bull to Stan and later I followed along so as not to be outdone. (The ego is a terrible thing.) > > I was flying in a customers aircraft (I trimmed) and just finished full aft stick stall practice (his plane is really a nice flyer), and asked if I could try something I hadn't practiced in a while. I did the so called impossible turn at 3500 AGL to see if I could still come close, as I hadn't practiced it in some time. 350 feet. Owner tried it, a couple times and lost over a 1000 feet. He is an excellent pilot, CFI, but not a practicing CFI any longer, current, very comfortable in the aircraft, but not at max performance. We mused about whether one would actually try something like that down low, and agreed that without extensive practice and ideal conditions, it was not sensible. But it can be done in a controlled environment. > > If a turn back is attempted using normal level turn type techniques you are right, the altitude loss is terrible. Please folks, let us not get into a sailplane discussion here where the simulated tow rope break is done. The Europa short wing is not a sailplane. It can roll very well, and if straight and true, the pilot practiced, it can be flown well into the stall. (Especially if the stall strips are placed properly.) If one breaks into a spin during a hard turn, the plane is out of rig or flown out of trim or side slipped by the pilot . If aileron is introduced at any time during the stall, the down aileron will stall first and as you well know nothing good will happen after that. Usually a snap will occur. Back seaters would keep their knees together to keep the tendency from trying to correct roll with aileron at the stall, the rudder is the tool to use with a well trained foot. > > These techniques are well taught in most aerobatic and out of control recover maneuvering, also called upset training. Any load or backpressure in a turn defeats the roll rate, aggravates the lateral trim/rig, and can lead to a snap. If you can't fly into a stall without fear, there is a reason. IT IS NOT TAUGHT ANY LONGER. The folks that have flown with me know I am conservative, but comfortable in the corners of the envelope. I test the aircraft here until I can fly them without reference to the ball, only looking over the nose until the plane is coaxed into the stall and begins to mush straight ahead. Then I do it in harder turns. A stall is a stall. The same rules apply, only the G loading changes. We slow flight here in gentle turns very near the burble with confidence. Most folks do not get their plane rigged properly. Take the time and do it. An out of rig airplane is a snake in the grass and dangerous. Fly well away from the stall and straight and level until you ge t the plane fixed. If the plane is OK and you can't, then avoid the area or get some training. Even though the information is known, without practice and confidence, the application of the knowledge for the first time is fraught with disaster. Knowledge is worthless without practice and currency. > > As Dirty Harry said: A mans got to know his limitations. I know I try to. My limits seem to be increasing every day I get older. Currency and familiarity are necessary. If I am not current, I fly an airline profile and get a lot of practice. Fly as your instructors have taught you. Pay attention to your skills. If it feels uncomfortable, don't do it until you get proper training. If your plane can't get to the stall without rolling tendencies, fix it. > > Be conservative when close to the ground. As I mentioned to Will, my three mistakes altitude is about 3000 AGL but: > > "My personal floor is 1000 AGL now for any cruising or maneuvering. I fly pretty much straight and level, and no more than 45 degrees of bank and do not slow below glide speed below that. Below 1000 feet you are in the > low altitude structure and that is a different discipline. Low altitude maneuvering or military low level training were disciplines well regulated and trained for extensively. Your time to disaster is very short." > > Regards, > Bud Yerly > > FROM: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > SENT: Sunday, May 01, 2016 7:57 AM > TO: europa-list@matronics.com > SUBJECT: Europa-List: Turn back was SmartASS etc > > Bud & William, This has the makings of a rich seam of discussion! Firstly William, I have been a bit sloppy in talking about my stall speed. In various formal tests for initial permit and annual renewal I have recorded it at between 39 and 43 kts with flaps down (and 48 -50kts clean) with loadings between 1210 and1370lbs. I have tended to do my experiments on turn back height loss at different bank angles flying solo so think more in terms of the lower figure, and on occasions when the wings are polished and bug free and the wing root gaps freshly sealed, I have recorded 38kts. > > Stall speed vs Bank: The pilot's handbook for the mono XS talks of 44 kts level Max AUW stall speed. If you take that, the stall speed for different bank angles would be: 45 Deg = 52kts; 60 deg = 62kts: 70deg = 76 kts; 80 deg = 108kts (these figures and those to follow are available in most standard flight texts or on line at www.csgnetwork.com [3]). These stall speeds at 70 or 80 degree bank are enough to persuade me that steep turns in an engine off situation are a recipe for disaster. I once, for fun did a deliberate stall in a steep turn (probably around 75degs) and found myself immediately in a spin. Richard Iddon did something similar but found himself in an inverted spin! > > Turning Circles: Bud you have suggested 800ft as the diameter of turn for at 45 degree bank will have a turn diameter of 800 ft but the actual figure from standard tables is 445ft, and assuming that the pilot has had the wit to turn into whatever cross wind there is, he will have drifted much or all of this back to the centre line by the time he has completed his 180 turn. > > Height Loss: You also imply that you effectively turn the plane on its side and let it go in free fall downwards rather than flying it in a balanced way so maybe we are talking about something rather different. However I have a bit of problem with your maths. You do not fall at 32 ft per sec - you accelerate downwards at 32 ft per second per second and 10 secs of free fall takes you 1600ft - not good news! > > Finally can I say again that the good starting point for dealing with an EFATO is doing just what your instructor told you - land ahead. If you are looking to improve your skills and planning not to become the 9th Europa pilot to succumb to a stall/spin disaster, then I would strongly recommend working out a system of turn back that works for you and practice it until you can do it with minimal thought > > Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ > > On 2016-04-30 18:12, Bud Yerly wrote: > > David, > Not to open a can of worms. > I have read the same study. In most aircraft with slow roll and high drag, he is correct. On the average, a 45 degree bank gives a higher turn rate and you still have 70% of your lift available to arrest your descent. > > Stan Sutterfield (another fighter pilot smart ass and Reno competitor) and I did this in a couple of aircraft. In the Europa for instance, the roll rate, if you unload to 1/4 G is very good (100 degrees per second). A pull to the verge of stall near 80 or so degrees of bank at 75 KTS (the FAA recommends 70 degrees to be the maximum of any turn of course) , turns the aircraft at three times the rate at 75 knots. So it will take about 3 seconds to do a 180 and the radius of turn is 200 feet. REMEMBER, NO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN ALTITUDE! The average pilot needs 3 seconds to react while climbing and one second to roll in a second to pull, and the same two seconds to roll out. That is 10 seconds from straight ahead, to complete 180. Falling at 32.2 FPS, the plane will drop 320 feet because gravity works 24/7. Accounting for upward momentum during the three seconds to react at a 15 degree deck angle of 75 feet, once can see that the a completed well practiced turn can be done in les s than 300 feet. The aircraft pitch will go from 15 degrees up to 15 degrees down and still leave you with a descent glide if done at 800 feet and about 75 knots on completion. > > The 45 degree of bank will take an agonizing 10 seconds, then add the reaction time, and the loss of altitude in a power off turn is staggering and the diameter of the turn is well off the centerline by 800 feet. Now you have another turn to do. That's dumb. > > I have done this maniac maneuver at altitude and once in the pattern (scared the crap out of everyone and I was at 800 feet and younger then) and it works. (Stan did it in a 172, but he is quite skilled.) I have had a couple of clients try it and without dedicated maneuver practice and years of training, lost amazing altitude and buried the nose. Without the training and practice, this is one of those bar stories and fun things to practice three mistakes high, but totally useless. Like racing airplanes at low altitude or doing Red Bull air racing. Fun for the pilot, exciting to watch, but totally useless and expensive. Besides my wife said no... > > As you so wonderfully said "I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you". is the most sage advice one can give a fellow pilot. > > NEVER DO A 180 as either it will kill you due to altitude loss or stall, or the sudden stop will! Turn only as necessary to hit something soft. Then open the door and step out and call the insurance company. > > Best Regards, > Bud Yerly > > FROM: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk > SENT: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 5:19 PM > TO: europa-list@matronics.com > SUBJECT: Re: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage > > Bud, excellent advice and I am envious of the F4 experience! I hesitate to quibble but there is one point I would like to offer a view contrary to what you appear to be saying. That is on the most efficient way to turn in an engine out situation if you are going to turn - and I hasten to add that I do not advocate turning around in every EFATO situation, only if you are in the situation where what lies ahead looks as though it will kill you, and as you say, and critically, you have practiced all the relevant skills. > > One of your countrymen , David Rogers, professor at US Naval Academy, Indianapolis, who clearly has high order mathematical skills, has shown definitively that the most efficient way of turning, (that is the way of turning through any given number of degrees with minimum height loss) is to turn at 45 degrees bank at as slow a speed as you can sensibly maintain without falling out of the sky. Any more or any less bank increases the height loss, quite apart from rapidly increasing stall speed. You mentioned 80 degrees and I can imagine that this might offer the quickest way of getting a fighter pointing in reverse, but it would produce substantially greater height loss for an engine out Europa, quite apart from stressing it to 5.76g and increasing the stall speed to around 100kts, or higher if you are flying at US mauw. > > My two penny (cents?) worth on stall/spin accidents, SmartASSes and the like and a practical application of the Rogers findings, is on the club website >>Flying>>Flight Safety, for what it is worth. If you would like to turn your email advice into an article, I would happily add that to this website eection. > > Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ > > On 2016-04-27 06:55, Bud Yerly wrote: > > > William, > A distracted pilot is a link in an accident chain to be sure. Thanks for sharing your experience. Frankly I needed it. We used to have a safety magazine with a "There I Was" section of cartoons (with a message) before the real there I was near mishap article someone shared. > > Although I am a keep it simple kind of guy, gear warning and stall warning systems work. Are they worth the cost, effort to install, troubleshoot, fine tune, and test? Normally Yes. > Are slow speed voice warning systems better than the stall rumble strips, or visual AOA systems, tones, "Bitching Bettys" and are they worth it on a straight wing aircraft? Not to me, but they are another tool to help cue the distracted or tired pilot to the old feeling that something is wrong. Probably time to add a slow speed switch to 12AY. Alas, if you get used to hearing the slow speed warning or seeing the red AOA arrow because a system isn't calibrated, we ignore it when we may need it the most. When something is wrong, or it doesn't feel right, go around and get your stuff together always works. Yes, I do carry a piddle pack and have had to use it to relieve "cockpit stress". > > What's the cost of a prop, engine repair and wheel well repair vs. the time and cost of a gear up warning system? Your choice. > What's the cost of loss of a plane/life due to a mishap caused by a non proficient, distracted, or fatigued pilot. Priceless to us all. And you're all lying if you haven't been there. Know you limitations. > > Whether you are experience or not, practice, practice, practice. Know your airplane, its stall characteristics, and in my case I fly it to its limits every time I do a practice hop. I don't do touch and goes. I do very low approaches where I slow flight down the runway for a 1000 feet just inches from the runway, perfectly aligned and it makes me keep flying the airplane rather than that old relaxation on landing habit we fall into, and my touchdowns are at 45 instead of 50. (My tires don't wear out either.) Don't put yourself into situations where you are overly fatigued. (No more afternoon takeoffs and long three hops to get home, as I have a credit card and am not afraid to use it at any hotel.) Never take anything for granted, use the checklist, know your pitch, power settings and speeds. Become a student of aviation again, take the time to read (Google just about any topic and you get a wealth of info, try "pitch and power flying"). We do things as old (read as experie nced) aviators from muscle memory, but the brain muscle is the most important tool, and we have to sharpen a tool to use it effectively. > > Develop good habits by breaking old ones. Read articles again on flying and techniques to get the brain juices flowing again. The Rotax and Airmaster have made me a lazy pilot. It is easy to push the power forward and pull the stick back and the houses get smaller, but it is power that makes us climb, not pitch alone (for long anyway) and occasionally I wish I had my GIB (Guy In Back in the F-4) to tell me to "Start doing some of that pilot SH T and get us out of here." or the famous "Doesn't all that shaking and beeping and rudder pedal vibration bother you?" as he locks his knees together at high AOA to prevent a departure from controlled flight. > > Practice routinely, know your airplane well, know the proper site pictures, pitch and power settings and install rumble strips on the leading edge to allow the aircraft feel to warn you of an approach to the stall. Then set and calibrate your EFIS/Stall Warn/AOA system to warn of a low speed situation/gear up or accelerated stall in the turn to keep you honest when you're not having your best day. Practice simulated engine out approaches, no flaps, partial power situations. Develop a passenger brief. Practice an emergency ground egress as if you just departed the runway and found one of our Florida water filled ditches and need to get unstrapped and out quickly. Climb up three mistakes high and do power on and off stalls. Practice unload for control drills. The plane won't stall if the AOA is zero. (Unload for control is an old military drill where the aircraft is flown to a high pitch attitude and the aircraft is unloaded to a quarter G (just getting light in the seat, not negative) and allowing the plane to fall through.) It teaches what an unload feels like when you are in need of full power instant acceleration to get out of trouble at slow speed rather than the push the stick forward drills I see our local instructors do. What happens when at 75 knots in a full power climb and you pull the power, count to three (reaction time) and try to do a 180. I've done a 180 in less than a couple hundred feet, but 80 degrees of bank pulling at the burble is not a recommended thing to do, can I do it, yes, will I do it rather than go for the golf course, no. If I goof it up, I'll get killed, if I hit a tree and land in it or hit a sand trap, I'll survive. Stretch a glide by slowing to near stall speed and watching the VSI, then do it at 75 and note the difference. Pull the power to idle on base and glide at best glide speed and see how your pattern is affected. Then do practice engine out approaches. Bottom line, If I haven't flown in thirty days, I go practice much of the above. If I haven't flown in 60 days, I fly with an instructor if I can find one, and if I can't, I go with another current experienced pilot and or take it in baby steps to get the pitch and power down, checklist operations, air work, emergency procedures and finally landings, at least three. Normal low approaches to get the feel of the pattern, then a normal full flap touch and go, no flap touch and go, full stop, min roll takeoff and soft field landing. > > All the FARs in the US say is to fly alone, I can go nearly 24 months (last BFR) if I want and then do three takeoffs and landings and I can take folks up with me on a cross country (DUH). > > My two cents, > Trying to live longer. > Bud Yerly > > -----Original Message----- From: William Bliss Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 4:37 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: SmartASS my Undercarriage > > > Hi All > Just thought I would tell you how I had long flight last weekend. > Arriving back at the farm strip aching for a pee I had to do a low pass > to clear the sheep. That quickly done, downwind checks and on finals > sizing up the crosswind I became aware of a voice telling me to check I > had the wheel down. I had not got the locking catch properly in place. > Sorted. I would say the investment in the SmartASS has paid off.... > William Bliss G-WUFF > > ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ics.com > .com > .matronics.com/contribution Links: ------ [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byBh1Qd6IgA [2] http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html [3] http://www.csgnetwork.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Torque Tube Clamp From: Pete Lawless Hi Bob I think you need to check the date on your computer. This email came though with 03/05/80! Pete On 03/05/80 00:54, Bob Harrison wrote: > Hi! Paul, > I supply them. I will follow up when I get back to my computer. > Thanks > Bob Harrison > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Paul Hawkins > Sent: 29/09/2015 12:17 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Torque Tube Clamp > > > > > Hi chaps, where can I buy torque tube clamps ? > > Regards Paul Hawkins > G-ROOV XS 914 > > > Sent from my iPad > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:08 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: Torque Tube Clamp . . . and Paul=92s message was dated Sep 2015 . . . > On 2016-05-02, at 13:09, Pete Lawless wrote: > > Hi Bob > > I think you need to check the date on your computer. This email came though with 03/05/80! > > Pete > > On 03/05/80 00:54, Bob Harrison wrote: >> Hi! Paul, >> I supply them. I will follow up when I get back to my computer. >> Thanks >> Bob Harrison >> From: Paul Hawkins >> Sent: 29/09/2015 12:17 >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Europa-List: Torque Tube Clamp >> >> >> >> Hi chaps, where can I buy torque tube clamps ? >> >> Regards Paul Hawkins >> G-ROOV XS 914 >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> >> > | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.