---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/15/16: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:28 AM - Re: Reposition oil cooler on Classic Trigear (Richard Lamprey) 2. 04:44 AM - Re: Reposition oil cooler on Classic Trigear (GBWFH2010) 3. 05:25 AM - Re: Reposition oil cooler on Classic Trigear (Richard Lamprey) 4. 10:56 AM - coolant overflow bottle questions (Rowland Carson) 5. 11:14 AM - coolant choce and temperature monitoring questions (Rowland Carson) 6. 12:04 PM - Re: coolant overflow bottle questions (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 7. 12:17 PM - Re: coolant overflow bottle questions (Brian Davies) 8. 12:29 PM - Re: a fledgling TV reality show... (Greg Fuchs) 9. 12:46 PM - Re: coolant overflow bottle questions (Greg Fuchs) 10. 02:46 PM - Re: coolant overflow bottle questions (Pete Lawless) 11. 02:48 PM - Re: coolant choce and temperature monitoring questions (Steven Pitt) 12. 02:58 PM - Re: coolant overflow bottle questions (Tim Ward) 13. 03:08 PM - Re: coolant overflow bottle questions (Greg Fuchs) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:49 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Reposition oil cooler on Classic Trigear From: "Richard Lamprey" Hello Gordon, I have the oil cooler beneath the spinner in my Kenya Europa, works very well, have never had an oil temp over 120 degrees, despite operating in 30 C temperatures. Occasionally in the climb its good to level out a bit to keep it beneath this. I try to attach picture here, sorry cant do something more detailed, I am away from the aircraft just now (will be back to it in 2 weeks time). Also, pictures don't attach easily on this site. I think other cooler designs are much like this. Best Richard Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456246#456246 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/imag2190_europa_274.jpg ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:31 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Reposition oil cooler on Classic Trigear From: "GBWFH2010" Richard, Thanks for the picture. I agree my temps are ridiculous so hopefully moving the oil cooler will make a big difference. Regards Gordon -------- Gordon Grant G-BWFH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456247#456247 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:53 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Reposition oil cooler on Classic Trigear From: "Richard Lamprey" Gordon, Something to add... Repositioning the oil cooler means that now you have the whole thing anchored to the lower cowling. This makes lowering the lower cowling, or taking it off completely, more complicated. The cooler now has to be exactly repositioned to enable the retaining screws from the outside to engage with the anchor nuts on the cooler.. All of this is a real nuisance for oil changes. Maybe others have better solutions. I now have an inspection panel directly beneath the oil reservoir to drain the oil, without dropping the lower cowling. It means that a certain amount of oil in the cooler stays in oil changes, but this prevents opening the system with the dreaded possibility of air entry into the system. (I read somewhere in a Rotax bulletin that leaving some residual oil in the cooler is OK in oil changes). I change oil every 30 hours. So, one thing leads to another, but oil cooling is not a problem. Best Richard Classic number 168, Monowheel, Rotax 912 UL, Warpdrive fixed, 600 hours, reg 5Y-LRY Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456249#456249 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:48 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: coolant overflow bottle questions Im trying to find the optimum position to install my coolant overflow bottle, and have come up with some associated queries. (1) On the relatively few installations of which Ive got pictures, most people seem to fit it at the port side on top of the footwell. My present plan for the layout of the battery and electrics offers space for it on the starboard side instead. However, either of these locations makes it somewhat inaccessible for daily checks. My copy of the Rotax Operators Manual says (inter alia): "10.3.1) Daily checks .. .. Verify coolant level in the overflow bottle, replenish as required. The coolant level must be between max. and min. mark or at least 0.2 litre (0.4 liq pt). It must be near-impossible to see the level in the overflow bottle (in the typical port footwell location) from the hatch over the expansion tank - how do other folk comply with this requirement for daily checks? (2) My Rotax Installation Manual says: "Expansion tank to overflow bottle hose: - Hose connecting expansion tank to overflow bottle must be rated for vacuum/suction for min. 125 C (257 F). E.g. it must be strong enough to withstand high heat and suction during the cooling down period. WARNING: A soft walled hose is not suitable as it can collapse and cause coolant system failure." What have people in UK used for the pipe/tubing/hose from the expansion tank to the overflow bottle to ensure compliance with the above? (3) Ive seen both tie-wraps and bent aluminium straps used to retain the overflow bottle. The ali strap seems more satisfactory as the whole aft face of the bottle can be in contact with, and supported by, the firewall. Anyone had any good or bad experiences with either method? All thoughts on these topics welcome. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:39 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: coolant choce and temperature monitoring questions I thought Id got all the instrumentation I needed sorted out, but Ive come across the following items in the Rotax Installation Manual: "2 different types of coolant are permitted. Type 1: - Conventional coolant based on ethylene glycol Conventional coolant is recommended as it is commonly available and has a greater thermal heat transfer capability. . . . Permanent monitoring of coolant temperature and cylinder head temperature is necessary. Type 2: - Waterless coolant based on propylene glycol Waterless coolant is recommended if the design of the aircraft can not maintain the coolant temperature limit. . . . Permanent monitoring of cylinder head temperature is necessary. Additional monitoring of the actual coolant temperature is possible but not necessary for waterless coolant. I seem to recall that Evans (waterless) coolant was the flavour of the month some time back, and then it fell out of favour. I understand it's more expensive than ethylene glycol coolants as well as causing the engine to run hotter (because it doesnt transfer heat so well). However, it appears from the above Rotax manual extracts that if one wants to use the cheaper ethylene glycol option, its necessary to have a coolant temperature gauge as well as the CHT monitoring. And elsewhere in the manual coolant temp monitoring is required during the test flying period even with waterless coolant. So, the question is - what do folks in UK generally use in the coolant system? And if conventional ethylene glycol, what type of coolant temperature sensor do they have and where is it fitted? All advice born of experience welcome. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:56 PM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant overflow bottle questions Rowland, I very much doubt whether anyone checks the overflow bottle coolant level at all, unless the level in the header tank is down or they have the top cowling off for something else. It seems to me entirely non critical as long as the header tank/inlet is full. Regards, David On 2016-05-15 18:55, Rowland Carson wrote: > > I'm trying to find the optimum position to install my coolant overflow bottle, and have come up with some associated queries. > > (1) On the relatively few installations of which I've got pictures, most people seem to fit it at the port side on top of the footwell. My present plan for the layout of the battery and electrics offers space for it on the starboard side instead. However, either of these locations makes it somewhat inaccessible for daily checks. My copy of the Rotax Operators Manual says (inter alia): > > "10.3.1) Daily checks > . > . > Verify coolant level in the overflow bottle, replenish as required. > The coolant level must be between max. and min. mark or at least 0.2 litre (0.4 liq pt)." > > It must be near-impossible to see the level in the overflow bottle (in the typical port footwell location) from the hatch over the expansion tank - how do other folk comply with this requirement for daily checks? > > (2) My Rotax Installation Manual says: > > "Expansion tank to overflow bottle hose: > - Hose connecting expansion tank to overflow bottle must be rated for vacuum/suction for min. 125 C (257 F). E.g. it must be strong enough to withstand high heat and suction during the cooling down period. > WARNING: A soft walled hose is not suitable as it can collapse and cause coolant system failure." > > What have people in UK used for the pipe/tubing/hose from the expansion tank to the overflow bottle to ensure compliance with the above? > > (3) I've seen both tie-wraps and bent aluminium straps used to retain the overflow bottle. The ali strap seems more satisfactory as the whole aft face of the bottle can be in contact with, and supported by, the firewall. Anyone had any good or bad experiences with either method? > > All thoughts on these topics welcome. > > in friendship > > Rowland > > Links: ------ [1] http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk [2] http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson [3] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [4] http://forums.matronics.com [5] http://wiki.matronics.com [6] http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:49 PM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: RE: Europa-List: coolant overflow bottle questions Hi Rowland, I have the Rotax expansion bottle on the stbd footwell and I can see the level clearly through the coolant hatch which is fitted in the standard position in the top cowl. I can also see it through the oil hatch if I get the angle right. I used fuel injection hose and have had no problems. Regards Brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Sent: 15 May 2016 18:56 Subject: Europa-List: coolant overflow bottle questions --> Im trying to find the optimum position to install my coolant overflow bottle, and have come up with some associated queries. (1) On the relatively few installations of which Ive got pictures, most people seem to fit it at the port side on top of the footwell. My present plan for the layout of the battery and electrics offers space for it on the starboard side instead. However, either of these locations makes it somewhat inaccessible for daily checks. My copy of the Rotax Operators Manual says (inter alia): "10.3.1) Daily checks .. .. Verify coolant level in the overflow bottle, replenish as required. The coolant level must be between max. and min. mark or at least 0.2 litre (0.4 liq pt). It must be near-impossible to see the level in the overflow bottle (in the typical port footwell location) from the hatch over the expansion tank - how do other folk comply with this requirement for daily checks? (2) My Rotax Installation Manual says: "Expansion tank to overflow bottle hose: - Hose connecting expansion tank to overflow bottle must be rated for vacuum/suction for min. 125 C (257 F). E.g. it must be strong enough to withstand high heat and suction during the cooling down period. WARNING: A soft walled hose is not suitable as it can collapse and cause coolant system failure." What have people in UK used for the pipe/tubing/hose from the expansion tank to the overflow bottle to ensure compliance with the above? (3) Ive seen both tie-wraps and bent aluminium straps used to retain the overflow bottle. The ali strap seems more satisfactory as the whole aft face of the bottle can be in contact with, and supported by, the firewall. Anyone had any good or bad experiences with either method? All thoughts on these topics welcome. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:48 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: a fledgling TV reality show... HaHa Fred! I know the feeling. I think I will be in the second episode. If they get wind of me soon enough, I just might be in the inaugural too ;) I know you are close.. are you planning on flying this year sometime? do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2016 5:53 PM Subject: Europa-List: a fledgling TV reality show... When a TV producer got wind of my having spent 10 years building a Europa, he invited me to be on the inaugural episode of his new show, "Just How Anal Can You Get.?." (.that's intended as sort of a joke.) do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:23 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: coolant overflow bottle questions (1) On the relatively few installations of which I've got pictures, most people seem to fit it at the port side on top of the footwell. My present plan for the layout of the battery and electrics offers space for it on the starboard side instead. However, either of these locations makes it somewhat inaccessible for daily checks. My copy of the Rotax Operators Manual says (inter alia): _________________________ Rowland, I can comment on (1) above. If you position the cooling bottle on either footwell, close to the cooling slits on the top sides of the cowling, the coolant bottle can be seen through the slits from the outside, by just shining a flashlight through them. It's a very easy check to verify coolant, and no trap door needed. Regards, Greg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant overflow bottle questions From: Pete Lawless I check mine every time I fly - even after a short stop off!! It is part of my standard pre flight check. Pete On 15/05/16 20:03, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote: > > Rowland, I very much doubt whether anyone checks the overflow bottle > coolant level at all, unless the level in the header tank is down or > they have the top cowling off for something else. It seems to me > entirely non critical as long as the header tank/inlet is full. > > Regards, David > > On 2016-05-15 18:55, Rowland Carson wrote: > >> >> I'm trying to find the optimum position to install my coolant overflow bottle, and have come up with some associated queries. >> >> (1) On the relatively few installations of which I've got pictures, most people seem to fit it at the port side on top of the footwell. My present plan for the layout of the battery and electrics offers space for it on the starboard side instead. However, either of these locations makes it somewhat inaccessible for daily checks. My copy of the Rotax Operators Manual says (inter alia): >> >> "10.3.1) Daily checks >> . >> . >> Verify coolant level in the overflow bottle, replenish as required. >> The coolant level must be between max. and min. mark or at least 0.2 litre (0.4 liq pt)." >> >> It must be near-impossible to see the level in the overflow bottle (in the typical port footwell location) from the hatch over the expansion tank - how do other folk comply with this requirement for daily checks? >> >> (2) My Rotax Installation Manual says: >> >> "Expansion tank to overflow bottle hose: >> - Hose connecting expansion tank to overflow bottle must be rated for vacuum/suction for min. 125 C (257 F). E.g. it must be strong enough to withstand high heat and suction during the cooling down period. >> WARNING: A soft walled hose is not suitable as it can collapse and cause coolant system failure." >> >> What have people in UK used for the pipe/tubing/hose from the expansion tank to the overflow bottle to ensure compliance with the above? >> >> (3) I've seen both tie-wraps and bent aluminium straps used to retain the overflow bottle. The ali strap seems more satisfactory as the whole aft face of the bottle can be in contact with, and supported by, the firewall. Anyone had any good or bad experiences with either method? >> >> All thoughts on these topics welcome. >> >> in friendship >> >> Rowland >> >> | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... >> | >http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk >> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson >> | pictures:http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson >> >> >> >> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ics.com >> .com >> .matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:40 PM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant choce and temperature monitoring questions I've used Evans from the start and never had a problem. (touch wood). You are right in saying it was flavour of the month but seems that the glycol mix is now the recommended way to go. Best wishes, Steve G-SMDH - back in the air today!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rowland Carson" Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 7:14 PM Subject: Europa-List: coolant choce and temperature monitoring questions > > > I thought Id got all the instrumentation I needed sorted out, but Ive > come across the following items in the Rotax Installation Manual: > > > "2 different types of coolant are permitted. > > Type 1: > - Conventional coolant based on ethylene glycol > Conventional coolant is recommended as it is commonly available and has a > greater thermal heat transfer capability. > . . . > Permanent monitoring of coolant temperature and cylinder head temperature > is necessary. > > Type 2: > - Waterless coolant based on propylene glycol > Waterless coolant is recommended if the design of the aircraft can not > maintain the coolant temperature limit. > . . . > Permanent monitoring of cylinder head temperature is necessary. > Additional monitoring of the actual coolant temperature is possible but > not necessary for waterless coolant. > > > I seem to recall that Evans (waterless) coolant was the flavour of the > month some time back, and then it fell out of favour. I understand it's > more expensive than ethylene glycol coolants as well as causing the engine > to run hotter (because it doesnt transfer heat so well). > > However, it appears from the above Rotax manual extracts that if one wants > to use the cheaper ethylene glycol option, its necessary to have a > coolant temperature gauge as well as the CHT monitoring. And elsewhere in > the manual coolant temp monitoring is required during the test flying > period even with waterless coolant. > > So, the question is - what do folks in UK generally use in the coolant > system? And if conventional ethylene glycol, what type of coolant > temperature sensor do they have and where is it fitted? > > All advice born of experience welcome. > > in friendship > > Rowland > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:50 PM PST US From: Tim Ward Subject: Re: Europa-List: coolant overflow bottle questions I can look through my oil hatch at the coolant level easily on the port side . TIM Sent from my iPhone > On 16/05/2016, at 9:45 AM, Pete Lawless wrote: > > I check mine every time I fly - even after a short stop off!! It is part o f my standard pre flight check. > > Pete > >> On 15/05/16 20:03, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote: >> Rowland, I very much doubt whether anyone checks the overflow bottle cool ant level at all, unless the level in the header tank is down or they have t he top cowling off for something else. It seems to me entirely non critical a s long as the header tank/inlet is full. >> >> Regards, David >> >> >> >> >>> On 2016-05-15 18:55, Rowland Carson wrote: >>> om> >>> >>> I'm trying to find the optimum position to install my coolant overflow b ottle, and have come up with some associated queries. >>> >>> (1) On the relatively few installations of which I've got pictures, most people seem to fit it at the port side on top of the footwell. My present p lan for the layout of the battery and electrics offers space for it on the s tarboard side instead. However, either of these locations makes it somewhat i naccessible for daily checks. My copy of the Rotax Operators Manual says (in ter alia): >>> >>> "10.3.1) Daily checks >>> . >>> . >>> Verify coolant level in the overflow bottle, replenish as required. >>> The coolant level must be between max. and min. mark or at least 0.2 lit re (0.4 liq pt)." >>> >>> It must be near-impossible to see the level in the overflow bottle (in t he typical port footwell location) from the hatch over the expansion tank - h ow do other folk comply with this requirement for daily checks? >>> >>> (2) My Rotax Installation Manual says: >>> >>> "Expansion tank to overflow bottle hose: >>> - Hose connecting expansion tank to overflow bottle must be rated for va cuum/suction for min. 125 =C2=B0C (257 =C2=B0F). E.g. it must be strong enou gh to withstand high heat and suction during the cooling down period. >>> WARNING: A soft walled hose is not suitable as it can collapse and cause coolant system failure." >>> >>> What have people in UK used for the pipe/tubing/hose from the expansion t ank to the overflow bottle to ensure compliance with the above? >>> >>> (3) I've seen both tie-wraps and bent aluminium straps used to retain th e overflow bottle. The ali strap seems more satisfactory as the whole aft fa ce of the bottle can be in contact with, and supported by, the firewall. Any one had any good or bad experiences with either method? >>> >>> All thoughts on these topics welcome. >>> >>> in friendship >>> >>> Rowland >>> >>> | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... >>> | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk >>> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson >>> | pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/rowlandcarson >>> >>> >>> >>> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>> ics.com >>> .com >>> .matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> >>> > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:22 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: coolant overflow bottle questions Rowland, I can comment on (1) below. If you position the cooling bottle on either footwell, close to the cooling slits on the sides of the upper cowling, the coolant bottle can be seen through the slits from the outside, by just shining a flashlight through them. It's a very easy check to verify coolant, and no special trap door needed. Regards, Greg .......................... (1) On the relatively few installations of which I've got pictures, most people seem to fit it at the port side on top of the footwell. My present plan for the layout of the battery and electrics offers space for it on the starboard side instead. However, either of these locations makes it somewhat inaccessible for daily checks. My copy of the Rotax Operators Manual says (inter alia): "10.3.1) Daily checks .. .. Verify coolant level in the overflow bottle, replenish as required. The coolant level must be between max. and min. mark or at least 0.2 litre (0.4 liq pt)." It must be near-impossible to see the level in the overflow bottle (in the typical port footwell location) from the hatch over the expansion tank - how do other folk comply with this requirement for daily checks?_________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.