Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:04 AM - Re: Re: Unidentified Probe (Brian Davies)
2. 03:24 AM - Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (Roland)
3. 04:10 AM - Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
4. 04:13 AM - Fw: Returned Mail: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
5. 04:22 AM - Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
6. 06:35 AM - Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (rampil)
7. 07:19 AM - Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (Roland)
8. 09:50 AM - Rain passing through fuel cap (Rick Moss)
9. 09:58 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (Trevor Pond)
10. 10:30 AM - Re: Rain passing through fuel cap (david park)
11. 11:37 AM - Re: Rain passing through fuel cap (Kevin Challis)
12. 11:47 AM - Re: Rain passing through fuel cap (david park)
13. 12:08 PM - Re: Rain passing through fuel cap (Bob Harrison)
14. 02:09 PM - Re: Rain passing through fuel cap (Rick Moss)
15. 03:22 PM - Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (zwakie)
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Subject: | Re: Unidentified Probe |
Hi Bob,
If you are using 50/50 water glycol mix it is a requirement to have both a
CHT gauge and a water temp gauge. The engine limitations have different max
temps for each. Most owners only have one CHT sensor. The very latest
engines have a modified location for the CHT sensor which should remove the
need to measure both.
If you have the carb heat mod there does not seem much point in measuring
carb temp. The reason you would measure carb temp is to warn of carb icing.
Regards
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobD
Sent: 27 July 2016 23:22
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Unidentified Probe
Thanks for all the replies.
My Europa does have a Carb Heat kit fitted, and from Paul's description, it
is a Mk.2
I'll change the battery, and have a play with it, but I have already fitted
the Water Temperature adapter from Skydrive, and plan to get a Dynon Skyview
Panel to monitor, amongst other things, the Water Temp. I understand from
elsewhere on the forum that Rotax do not fit a probe for Water Temp, but
rely on Cylinder Head Temp for engine monitoring. I would like to keep an
eye on the Water Temp, so have used one of the two Cylinder Head Probes for
the Water Temp.
This means at present, I will only be measuring CHT at one cylinder. Do
other do this, or fit 2 or even four probes, and measure each Cylinder ?
Is there any advantage in having both Water Temp, and Carb Temp (by using
this probe ) ?
Sorry for the initial confusion, both photos are of the same device from
different angles. If it is self powered via the battery, any idea what the
pinout connections are for ?
TIA
--------
Bob Dawson
XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458802#458802
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Subject: | Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Hello,
I have the conventional XS cowling with the 914 and overheating might occur on
the ground in high OAT's (25-30C). I've shut down the engine once when reaching
118C and then I could hear the 50/50 antifreeze boiling lightly. Does anyone
know roughly the temperature gap between the CHT/CT (I only have a CHT gauge)?
I've read on another forum, that increasing to 2700RPM (and switch to a courser
pitch?) brings down the temperature. I also have a water Thermostate installed,
which I'll remove in a first step to lower the CHT-temperatures on the ground
and increase the time until I have to shut down the engine (when reaching 115C
CHT). With this measure I (hopefully) increase the oil temperature at the
same time (oil cooler partly covered by Radiator) so that I can taxi and take
off earlier, since I don't have to wait for the oil to warm. Same goes after landing
regarding the cooling run for the Turbo, when the CHT is creeping up quickly.
What are your experiences especially without water Thermostate on the ground in
high temperatures / measures to avoid overheating?
I want to start with simple things before modifying the cooling tunnel, because
I "only" have issues on the ground and quite satisfying setup for flying. Also
modifications often end in a never ending story and often the only practical
solution might be the best compromise...
The cooling of the XS is only sufficient for English summers I'm afraid :-)
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458822#458822
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Subject: | Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Roland, I had endless problems with overheating with my 914/XS. Going to
LAA Rally was a nightmare, because sitting in a queue to take off always
led to overheating, needing me to pull out of the queue and shut down. I
then had a Woodcomp SR2000 which is a low twist prop, very much like a
Warp Drive one or pretty much any prop you see on a Rotax 91X. The
problem is that at idling speeds the central part of the prop is in Beta
mode, effectively diverting air from the cooling inlets. When I switched
to a Woodcomp SR3000W the problem was abolished completely, quite apart
from gaining an appreciable amount of performance (equivalent to an
extra 7 horse power). I can now sit in a queue all day if needs be!
Details in the attached paper which appeared in the Europa mag some
years back. Photos are missing but not needed for understanding the
science.
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On 2016-07-28 11:22, Roland wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I have the conventional XS cowling with the 914 and overheating might occur on
the ground in high OAT's (25-30C). I've shut down the engine once when reaching
118C and then I could hear the 50/50 antifreeze boiling lightly. Does anyone
know roughly the temperature gap between the CHT/CT (I only have a CHT gauge)?
>
> I've read on another forum, that increasing to 2700RPM (and switch to a courser
pitch?) brings down the temperature. I also have a water Thermostate installed,
which I'll remove in a first step to lower the CHT-temperatures on the ground
and increase the time until I have to shut down the engine (when reaching
115C CHT). With this measure I (hopefully) increase the oil temperature at the
same time (oil cooler partly covered by Radiator) so that I can taxi and take
off earlier, since I don't have to wait for the oil to warm. Same goes after
landing regarding the cooling run for the Turbo, when the CHT is creeping up
quickly.
>
> What are your experiences especially without water Thermostate on the ground
in high temperatures / measures to avoid overheating?
>
> I want to start with simple things before modifying the cooling tunnel, because
I "only" have issues on the ground and quite satisfying setup for flying. Also
modifications often end in a never ending story and often the only practical
solution might be the best compromise...
>
> The cooling of the XS is only sufficient for English summers I'm afraid :-)
>
> Roland
> PH-ZTI
> XS TG 914
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458822#458822 [1]
>
Links:
------
[1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458822#458822
[2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[3] http://forums.matronics.com
[4] http://wiki.matronics.com
[5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Subject: | Re: Fwd: Returned Mail: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Roland, I had endless problems with overheating with my 914/XS. Going to
LAA Rally was a nightmare, because sitting in a queue to take off always
led to overheating, needing me to pull out of the queue and shut down. I
then had a Woodcomp SR2000 which is a low twist prop, very much like a
Warp Drive one or pretty much any prop you see on a Rotax 91X. The
problem is that at idling speeds the central part of the prop is in Beta
mode, effectively diverting air from the cooling inlets. When I switched
to a Woodcomp SR3000W the problem was abolished completely, quite apart
from gaining an appreciable amount of performance (equivalent to an
extra 7 horse power). I can now sit in a queue all day if needs be!
Details in the attached paper which appeared in the Europa mag some
years back. Photos are missing but not needed for understanding the
science. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ On 2016-07-28 11:22, Roland wrote:
> Hello, I have the conventional XS cowling with the 914 and overheating might
occur on the ground in high OAT's (25-30C). I've shut down the engine once when
reaching 118C and then I could hear the 50/50 antifreeze boiling lightly. Does
anyone know roughly the temperature gap between the CHT/CT (I only have a CHT
gauge)? I've read on another forum, that increasing to 2700RPM (and switch
to a courser pitch?) brings down the temperature. I also have a water Thermostate
installed, which I'll remove in a first step to lower the CHT-temperatures
on the ground and increase the time until I have to shut down the engine (when
reaching 115C CHT). With this measure I (hopefully) increase the oil temperature
at the same time (oil cooler partly covered by Radiator) so that I can taxi
and take off earlier, since I don't have to wait for the oil to warm. Same
goes after landing regarding the cooling run for the Turbo, when the CHT is creeping
up quickly. What ar
e your
experiences especially without water Thermostate on the ground in high temperatures / measures to avoid overheating? I want to start with simple things before modifying the cooling tunnel, because I "only" have issues on the ground and quite satisfying setup for flying. Also modifications often end in a never ending story and often the only practical solution might be the best compromise... The cooling of the XS is only sufficient for English summers I'm afraid :-) Roland PH-ZTI XS TG 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458822#458822 [1] [1 [1]]
Links:
------
[1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458822#458822 [1]
[2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [2]
[3] http://forums.matronics.com [3]
[4] http://wiki.matronics.com [4]
[5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution [5]
Links:
------
[1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458822#458822
[2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[3] http://forums.matronics.com
[4] http://wiki.matronics.com
[5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Subject: | Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Roland, I had endless problems with overheating with my 914/XS. Going to
LAA Rally was a nightmare, because sitting in a queue to take off always
led to overheating, needing me to pull out of the queue and shut down. I
then had a Woodcomp SR2000 which is a low twist prop, very much like a
Warp Drive one or pretty much any prop you see on a Rotax 91X. The
problem is that at idling speeds the central part of the prop is in Beta
mode, effectively diverting air from the cooling inlets. When I switched
to a Woodcomp SR3000W the problem was abolished completely, quite apart
from gaining an appreciable amount of performance (equivalent to an
extra 7 horse power). I can now sit in a queue all day if needs be!
I tried to attach the paper documenting a detailed comparison of
performance with the two props, which appeared in the Europa mag some
years back, but the list rejected it. However if you google, 'Does
Propeller Twist matter' it comes up top of the options
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
On 2016-07-28 11:22, Roland wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I have the conventional XS cowling with the 914 and overheating might occur on
the ground in high OAT's (25-30C). I've shut down the engine once when reaching
118C and then I could hear the 50/50 antifreeze boiling lightly. Does anyone
know roughly the temperature gap between the CHT/CT (I only have a CHT gauge)?
>
> I've read on another forum, that increasing to 2700RPM (and switch to a courser
pitch?) brings down the temperature. I also have a water Thermostate installed,
which I'll remove in a first step to lower the CHT-temperatures on the ground
and increase the time until I have to shut down the engine (when reaching
115C CHT). With this measure I (hopefully) increase the oil temperature at the
same time (oil cooler partly covered by Radiator) so that I can taxi and take
off earlier, since I don't have to wait for the oil to warm. Same goes after
landing regarding the cooling run for the Turbo, when the CHT is creeping up
quickly.
>
> What are your experiences especially without water Thermostate on the ground
in high temperatures / measures to avoid overheating?
>
> I want to start with simple things before modifying the cooling tunnel, because
I "only" have issues on the ground and quite satisfying setup for flying. Also
modifications often end in a never ending story and often the only practical
solution might be the best compromise...
>
> The cooling of the XS is only sufficient for English summers I'm afraid :-)
>
> Roland
> PH-ZTI
> XS TG 914
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458822#458822 [1]
>
Links:
------
[1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458822#458822
[2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[3] http://forums.matronics.com
[4] http://wiki.matronics.com
[5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
I believe the consensus on this forum and from hanging out with Europanauts
for many years has been that the 914 requires modification of the cowl and baffling
to reduce the prevalent overheating issues at low airspeed and high OAT.
I believe Bud Yerly has extensive experience with these modifications.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458827#458827
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Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Hi David and Ira,
I guess you are both right, but achieved cooling-improvement on different ways.
David, I well remember our chat on the Europa AGM last year but have to admit,
that I thought of something cheaper than a new Propeller. I even would consider
this, when it would be "only" the money provided it's a reliable solution. But
since my Europa is on the Dutch Register, I'd expect considerable paperwork
with the authorities going along with additional costs. However additional performance
is also tempting :-)
Ira, yes - Bud Yerly has huge knowledge of the Europa cooling modifications and
I know his comprehensive article. Since I can't do much myself and cannot bring
my Europa to his shop, I have to stick to more or less easy solutions like
removing the Thermostate first.
I have already modified the airflow in the tunnel with an aluminum sheet to force
more air through the Radiator and the result is quite good when airborn in
all kind of OATs even in extensive climbs at MTOM. On the other hand I know of
conventional installations (XS-cowling and 914) like the one of Tim Weert from
Holland, who seems to have no cooling issues. The cooling-problem in my Europa
is either not dramatic, since I can run the engine for >10 minutes from start
up until take off in 28C (and that is with a coolant Thermostate which pushes
the temperatures quick to 85C). It's rather the situations like sitting behind
a queue at the holding position - like David described it - when it becomes
uncomfortable with one eye always on the CHT-gauge. At the AERO fare in Friedrichshafen
I positioned my Europa 3 meters behind a Cirrus SR 22 to Keep the
CHT at 115C.
I'll remove the Thermostate first....
Anyway thanks for your advice!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458828#458828
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Subject: | Rain passing through fuel cap |
Hi all,
After a couple of days parked outside in fairly rainy conditions, a check of the
useless water drains proved negative, however after the following flight I got
2/3rds of a sample tube full of water from the gascolator (and still nothing
from the water drains). Next flight was 2 hrs from Le Touquet to Barton; gascolator
yielded a clear sample.... of 100% water.... and then a further 2/3rds
water sample. I'm impressed with the capacity of the Andair gascolator!
So; my fuel cap clearly lets water into the tank. There doesn't appear to be a
rubber seal of any sort, and I've adjusted the backnut to ensure it fastens tightly,
but there must be a better solution? Any suggestions gratefully received!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458830#458830
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Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Hi
Neville Eyre's cowling a make the engine run a lot cooler on the ground. Give
him a ring and I'm sure he will be pleased to discuss.
When OAT is high I always taxi my 914 Eoropa with coarse pitch set - it certainly
helps.
Regards
Trev
G-LINN
Sent from my iPhone
> On 28 Jul 2016, at 15:18, Roland <schmidtroland@web.de> wrote:
>
>
> Hi David and Ira,
>
> I guess you are both right, but achieved cooling-improvement on different ways.
>
> David, I well remember our chat on the Europa AGM last year but have to admit,
that I thought of something cheaper than a new Propeller. I even would consider
this, when it would be "only" the money provided it's a reliable solution.
But since my Europa is on the Dutch Register, I'd expect considerable paperwork
with the authorities going along with additional costs. However additional
performance is also tempting :-)
>
> Ira, yes - Bud Yerly has huge knowledge of the Europa cooling modifications and
I know his comprehensive article. Since I can't do much myself and cannot bring
my Europa to his shop, I have to stick to more or less easy solutions like
removing the Thermostate first.
>
> I have already modified the airflow in the tunnel with an aluminum sheet to force
more air through the Radiator and the result is quite good when airborn in
all kind of OATs even in extensive climbs at MTOM. On the other hand I know
of conventional installations (XS-cowling and 914) like the one of Tim Weert from
Holland, who seems to have no cooling issues. The cooling-problem in my Europa
is either not dramatic, since I can run the engine for >10 minutes from start
up until take off in 28C (and that is with a coolant Thermostate which pushes
the temperatures quick to 85C). It's rather the situations like sitting behind
a queue at the holding position - like David described it - when it becomes
uncomfortable with one eye always on the CHT-gauge. At the AERO fare in Friedrichshafen
I positioned my Europa 3 meters behind a Cirrus SR 22 to Keep the
CHT at 115C.
>
> I'll remove the Thermostate first....
>
> Anyway thanks for your advice!
>
> Regards
> Roland
> PH-ZTI
> XS TG 914
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458828#458828
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Rain passing through fuel cap |
There is a rubber sealing ring on my cap.
A Mono is tail down when you check for water in drains so there is no access to
the water when checking.
After flight with tail up it finds the water hence Gascolator.
Dave
Dave Park
> On 28 Jul 2016, at 17:49, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> After a couple of days parked outside in fairly rainy conditions, a check of
the useless water drains proved negative, however after the following flight I
got 2/3rds of a sample tube full of water from the gascolator (and still nothing
from the water drains). Next flight was 2 hrs from Le Touquet to Barton; gascolator
yielded a clear sample.... of 100% water.... and then a further 2/3rds
water sample. I'm impressed with the capacity of the Andair gascolator!
>
> So; my fuel cap clearly lets water into the tank. There doesn't appear to be
a rubber seal of any sort, and I've adjusted the backnut to ensure it fastens
tightly, but there must be a better solution? Any suggestions gratefully received!
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458830#458830
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Rain passing through fuel cap |
A circle of sign vinyl over the cap when left outside. Not very fancy but it works.
It does leave some sticky residue but a little fuel on a cloth cleans it
up. I keep a few in my flight bag.
Kevin Challis
G ODJG
> On 28 Jul 2016, at 18:49, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> After a couple of days parked outside in fairly rainy conditions, a check of
the useless water drains proved negative, however after the following flight I
got 2/3rds of a sample tube full of water from the gascolator (and still nothing
from the water drains). Next flight was 2 hrs from Le Touquet to Barton; gascolator
yielded a clear sample.... of 100% water.... and then a further 2/3rds
water sample. I'm impressed with the capacity of the Andair gascolator!
>
> So; my fuel cap clearly lets water into the tank. There doesn't appear to be
a rubber seal of any sort, and I've adjusted the backnut to ensure it fastens
tightly, but there must be a better solution? Any suggestions gratefully received!
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458830#458830
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Rain passing through fuel cap |
Europa do a cover that covers to rear of filler
Dave
Dave Park
> On 28 Jul 2016, at 19:36, Kevin Challis <cakeykev@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> A circle of sign vinyl over the cap when left outside. Not very fancy but it
works. It does leave some sticky residue but a little fuel on a cloth cleans it
up. I keep a few in my flight bag.
>
> Kevin Challis
> G ODJG
>
>
>
>> On 28 Jul 2016, at 18:49, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> After a couple of days parked outside in fairly rainy conditions, a check of
the useless water drains proved negative, however after the following flight
I got 2/3rds of a sample tube full of water from the gascolator (and still nothing
from the water drains). Next flight was 2 hrs from Le Touquet to Barton;
gascolator yielded a clear sample.... of 100% water.... and then a further 2/3rds
water sample. I'm impressed with the capacity of the Andair gascolator!
>>
>> So; my fuel cap clearly lets water into the tank. There doesn't appear to be
a rubber seal of any sort, and I've adjusted the backnut to ensure it fastens
tightly, but there must be a better solution? Any suggestions gratefully received!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458830#458830
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Rain passing through fuel cap |
Hi!all,
I have had a similar experience with water in the fuel tank especially when
parked outside in continuous rain. My investigations discovered a
discrepancy between differing cap diameters and filler necks. I recommend
checks be carried out on your pairs.
AS an added precaution I apply electricians tape over the entire cap and
have had no incidents since.
The water drain pick up pipe end needs to be at the rear edges of the fuel
tank for monowheel tanks ( unless you do a water check with the tail held
high . Or the front edges of the tank for a trike standing on level ground.)
I too have been very impressed with the Andair mini gascolators and have one
on each tank outlet.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of david park
Sent: 28 July 2016 18:30
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rain passing through fuel cap
There is a rubber sealing ring on my cap.
A Mono is tail down when you check for water in drains so there is no access
to the water when checking.
After flight with tail up it finds the water hence Gascolator.
Dave
Dave Park
> On 28 Jul 2016, at 17:49, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> After a couple of days parked outside in fairly rainy conditions, a check
of the useless water drains proved negative, however after the following
flight I got 2/3rds of a sample tube full of water from the gascolator (and
still nothing from the water drains). Next flight was 2 hrs from Le Touquet
to Barton; gascolator yielded a clear sample.... of 100% water.... and then
a further 2/3rds water sample. I'm impressed with the capacity of the Andair
gascolator!
>
> So; my fuel cap clearly lets water into the tank. There doesn't appear to
be a rubber seal of any sort, and I've adjusted the backnut to ensure it
fastens tightly, but there must be a better solution? Any suggestions
gratefully received!
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> Read this topic online here:
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> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458830#458830
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Subject: | Re: Rain passing through fuel cap |
All good info, thanks.
I was debating covering the opening with cling film, and then applying a bead of
high modulus sikaflex around the mating faces of the tank cap, then loosely
fitting it in position before it sets. Theory being that it will make a fuel proof
rubber seal that will remain on the cap and not adhere to the airframe as
it sets.
I'm slightly concerned about the risk of sikaflex'ing my fuel cap in though...
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Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Hi Roland,
Roland wrote:
> ...that I thought of something cheaper than a new propeller. I even would consider
this, when it would be "only" the money provided it's a reliable solution.
But since my Europa is on the Dutch register, I'd expect considerable paperwork
with the authorities going along with additional costs.
This might be easier than you might think: if I remember correctly, PH-DIY has
this engine/prop combination (2-blade version I think).
Roland wrote:
> ...I have to stick to more or less easy solutions like removing the thermostate
first.
How is removing the water thermostat going to help? With CT temps over 85C it's
wide open, isn't it? With CHT's way up high, it is fair to assume that CT temps
are well above 85C. I would not expect you're getting more coolant to flow
by removing the thermostat and don't see how this is going to help you to bring
the CHT's down...
One option you could consider, but only worthwhile looking at if you your oil-temps
are 'well below' red-line: an oil-water heat exchanger. This would allow
you to use the excess cooling capacity of your oil radiator to bring down CHT
indirectly (additional benefit of this approach a.o. is your oil temp will be
above 50C quicker after startup)
--------
Marcel Zwakenberg
XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR
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