Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:17 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
2. 02:42 AM - Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (Roland)
3. 03:10 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (Karl Heindl)
4. 03:41 AM - Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (Roland)
5. 04:41 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
6. 11:12 AM - Re: Rain passing through fuel cap (Rick Moss)
7. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: Rain passing through fuel cap (Kevin Challis)
8. 12:46 PM - Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (zwakie)
9. 12:57 PM - Re: 8.33khz and the Netherlands (zwakie)
10. 05:05 PM - Altimeter App Update (rampil)
11. 06:26 PM - Re: Fw: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground (Frans Veldman)
12. 11:36 PM - Re: Re: Rain passing through fuel cap (Alan Burrill)
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Roland, I would not for a moment knock the benefits of having better
designed cowlings and internal cooling air flow arrangements. If I were
starting again I would go down that course as well as having a high
twist prop. The most impressive cowling design I have come across is the
beautiful one Nigel Graham has produced for his Callisto Europa variant.
However as a fix, a high twist prop seems comparitively cheap and easy
(Dutch authorities apart!) and has the added benefit of improved
performance.
For interest I have worked out the 'natural air flow rate' past the tip
and 1/3 radius points of my two props when they are idling in fine pitch
at 1700 engine rpm:
Low twist tip (31 deg) 69kts 1/3 R (43 deg) 35.7 kts
High twist Tip (23 deg) 49kts 1/3 R (49 deg) 44.2kts
You will see that the low rwist blade is trying to produce an airflow at
its tip almost twice that at its inner part, whereas the flow on the
high twist blade is relatively unifofm along its length. I am not an
aerodynamicist, so cannot say just what effect that might have, but
would be surprised if it does not result in a significant diversion of
air flow out from the central portion which of course contains the
colling air inlets. These figures are for the Woodcomp props, but Warp
Drive and other low twist blades must provide very similar results.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2016-07-28 23:20, zwakie wrote:
>
> Hi Roland,
>
> Roland wrote:
>
>> ...that I thought of something cheaper than a new propeller. I even would consider
this, when it would be "only" the money provided it's a reliable solution.
But since my Europa is on the Dutch register, I'd expect considerable paperwork
with the authorities going along with additional costs.
>
> This might be easier than you might think: if I remember correctly, PH-DIY has
this engine/prop combination (2-blade version I think).
>
> Roland wrote:
>
>> ...I have to stick to more or less easy solutions like removing the thermostate
first.
>
> How is removing the water thermostat going to help? With CT temps over 85C it's
wide open, isn't it? With CHT's way up high, it is fair to assume that CT temps
are well above 85C. I would not expect you're getting more coolant to flow
by removing the thermostat and don't see how this is going to help you to bring
the CHT's down...
>
> One option you could consider, but only worthwhile looking at if you your oil-temps
are 'well below' red-line: an oil-water heat exchanger. This would allow
you to use the excess cooling capacity of your oil radiator to bring down CHT
indirectly (additional benefit of this approach a.o. is your oil temp will be
above 50C quicker after startup)
>
> --------
> Marcel Zwakenberg
> XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458847#458847 [1]
>
Links:
------
[1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458847#458847
[2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[3] http://forums.matronics.com
[4] http://wiki.matronics.com
[5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Hello Marcel,
removing the thermostat brings the benefit, that I can taxi earlier (with much
lower CHTs) after engine start, because the radiator, which will then warm up
immediately also warms the oil cooler, that is mounted behind it - so I shorten
the time waiting for the oil temps to rise. Now I have >50C CHT when I start
taxi with the oil at 30C.
The same at the holding position, where I expect the CHTs to be close to the oil
temperatures. When I'm ready for departure with 75C oil/water temps, I have
a margin of 40C until I'd have to shut down at 115C. That's also quite some time.
The oil/water exchanger is generally a brilliant idea, but only with ample cooling
reserves, which I don't have unfortunately.
As for the efforts with the Dutch CAA - there isn't a Europa Trigear flying with
the Woodcomp SR 3000 W AFAIK (Frans Feldmann has the 2-bladed). For the "glijkstelling"
this is required IIRC. And the MTOM has to be 656 kg as well. However
I also think it's doable with the ILENT...
David, I've read your interesting article now and it seems the biggest benefit
is in cooling rather than performance, although I wouldn't sniff at a couple of
knots either. I asked my Dutch mechanic, who is also a Woodcomp dealer and he
estimated the Price in the region of 4500 EUR, but will check the exect Price
for me (anyone want an Airmster for 4000 EUR ;-) ?
A Belgian Europa friend has mounted a cooling flap in the lower cowling in front
of the Radiator which also works pretty well he says.
He also recommended this cooling fluid http://www.sm-sport.de/Oele-Pflege/Sonstiges/Denicol-Sub-Zero-Water-Cooler-2-Liter-Kuehlfluessigkeit.htm?SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=D180-1432&p=601 , which also seems to drop the temperatures a bit.
Many food for thought - thanks again friends!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458862#458862
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Roland,
A couple of notes about Woodcomp. Frans Veldman has the long bladed SR3000/
2W, the
same as my own ( I was the first to use one). It necessitates the raising o
f the nose gear
by 50 mm, a fairly simple and inexpensive mod. Mine also has the feathering
(glijkstelling?)
option.
I have no idea which control instruments would be available, because Smarta
vionics no
longer supply theirs. The original dual instrument from Woodcomp did not wo
rk for me
at all.
Karl
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> on behalf of Roland <schmidtroland@web.de>
Sent: 29 July 2016 10:41:42
Subject: Europa-List: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground
Hello Marcel,
removing the thermostat brings the benefit, that I can taxi earlier (with m
uch lower CHTs) after engine start, because the radiator, which will then w
arm up immediately also warms the oil cooler, that is mounted behind it - s
o I shorten the time waiting for the oil temps to rise. Now I have >50=C2
=B0C CHT when I start taxi with the oil at 30=C2=B0C.
The same at the holding position, where I expect the CHTs to be close to th
e oil temperatures. When I'm ready for departure with 75=C2=B0C oil/water t
emps, I have a margin of 40=C2=B0C until I'd have to shut down at 115=C2=B0
C. That's also quite some time.
The oil/water exchanger is generally a brilliant idea, but only with ample
cooling reserves, which I don't have unfortunately.
As for the efforts with the Dutch CAA - there isn't a Europa Trigear flying
with the Woodcomp SR 3000 W AFAIK (Frans Feldmann has the 2-bladed). For t
he "glijkstelling" this is required IIRC. And the MTOM has to be 656 kg as
well. However I also think it's doable with the ILENT...
David, I've read your interesting article now and it seems the biggest bene
fit is in cooling rather than performance, although I wouldn't sniff at a c
ouple of knots either. I asked my Dutch mechanic, who is also a Woodcomp de
aler and he estimated the Price in the region of 4500 EUR, but will check t
he exect Price for me (anyone want an Airmster for 4000 EUR ;-) ?
A Belgian Europa friend has mounted a cooling flap in the lower cowling in
front of the Radiator which also works pretty well he says.
He also recommended this cooling fluid http://www.sm-sport.de/Oele-Pflege/S
onstiges/Denicol-Sub-Zero-Water-Cooler-2-Liter-Kuehlfluessigkeit.htm?Sessio
nId=&a=article&ProdNr=D180-1432&p=601 , which also seems to drop t
he temperatures a bit.
Many food for thought - thanks again friends!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458862#458862
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Hello Karl,
I was envious about the design of Frans's and Ilona's (BTW where are they??) cooling
tunnel, which can be lowered completely into the airflow. From what I've
read about the Woodcomp Prop I now suspect it's the main contributer to the cooling
efficiency of their plane. On the other hand I remember, that Frans had
a lot of head scratching due to cooling issues despite using the Woodcomp in
the beginning of the flight testing of PH-DIY. He admired the guys in the Dimona
TTC doing airtows in hot weather all day long.
To be fair, I'm generally very satisfied with the Airmaster and Martin is great
in supporting if any problems come up. Also the controller is trouble free in
operation (I have the full feather option as well). With the Warp Drive blades
you can mowe the high grass at the airfield :-)
Airmaster also provide new Whirlwind blades, which can be used on the AP332 hub
with some modifications. But I don't know their contribution to airflow/cooling
yet, only heard that they also add some knot's to Speed.
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458864#458864
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Roland, It was actually a 4kt gain in top speed at various altitudes,
equivalent to an extra 7.5 horse power. William Mills did comparable
direct comparisons in his 912 Classic and also gained 4kts top speed
with improvements in fuel consumption & climb performance. I believe, by
the way, that the latest Woodcomp controller is a good design, very much
up to the Smart Avionics one.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2016-07-29 10:41, Roland wrote:
>
> Hello Marcel,
>
> removing the thermostat brings the benefit, that I can taxi earlier (with much
lower CHTs) after engine start, because the radiator, which will then warm up
immediately also warms the oil cooler, that is mounted behind it - so I shorten
the time waiting for the oil temps to rise. Now I have >50C CHT when I start
taxi with the oil at 30C.
>
> The same at the holding position, where I expect the CHTs to be close to the
oil temperatures. When I'm ready for departure with 75C oil/water temps, I have
a margin of 40C until I'd have to shut down at 115C. That's also quite some
time.
>
> The oil/water exchanger is generally a brilliant idea, but only with ample cooling
reserves, which I don't have unfortunately.
>
> As for the efforts with the Dutch CAA - there isn't a Europa Trigear flying with
the Woodcomp SR 3000 W AFAIK (Frans Feldmann has the 2-bladed). For the "glijkstelling"
this is required IIRC. And the MTOM has to be 656 kg as well. However
I also think it's doable with the ILENT...
>
> David, I've read your interesting article now and it seems the biggest benefit
is in cooling rather than performance, although I wouldn't sniff at a couple
of knots either. I asked my Dutch mechanic, who is also a Woodcomp dealer and
he estimated the Price in the region of 4500 EUR, but will check the exect Price
for me (anyone want an Airmster for 4000 EUR ;-) ?
>
> A Belgian Europa friend has mounted a cooling flap in the lower cowling in front
of the Radiator which also works pretty well he says.
>
> He also recommended this cooling fluid http://www.sm-sport.de/Oele-Pflege/Sonstiges/Denicol-Sub-Zero-Water-Cooler-2-Liter-Kuehlfluessigkeit.htm?SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=D180-1432&p=601 [1] , which also seems to drop the temperatures a bit.
>
> Many food for thought - thanks again friends!
>
> Regards
> Roland
> PH-ZTI
> XS TG 914
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458862#458862 [2]
>
Links:
------
[1]
http://www.sm-sport.de/Oele-Pflege/Sonstiges/Denicol-Sub-Zero-Water-Cooler-2-Liter-Kuehlfluessigkeit.htm?SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=D180-1432&p=601
[2] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458862#458862
[3] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[4] http://forums.matronics.com
[5] http://wiki.matronics.com
[6] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: Rain passing through fuel cap |
Thanks again for all the info; I spoke to Karen at Europa today, and received a
helpful email off-list telling me that there should be an o-ring. I've ordered
a new cap for a fairly reasonable 26.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458876#458876
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| Subject: | Re: Rain passing through fuel cap |
Mine fitted fine until I was rushing one day and left it off !!!!!!
The new one from Europa has never fitted very well, is difficult to remove and
doesn't seal.
Kevin Challis
> On 29 Jul 2016, at 20:11, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks again for all the info; I spoke to Karen at Europa today, and received
a helpful email off-list telling me that there should be an o-ring. I've ordered
a new cap for a fairly reasonable 26.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458876#458876
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
Hi Roland,
Thanks for your explanation. I can follow your reasoning, but to me this approach
of taking out the water thermostat sounds like fighting symptoms instead of
root cause, right?
Roland wrote:
> ... Frans's and Ilona's (BTW where are they??)...
Last thing I heard is that they are doing a sailing trip around the world, I was
told hey have been away from home for over a year now...
Roland wrote:
> ...On the other hand I remember, that Frans had a lot of head scratching due
to cooling issues despite using the Woodcomp in the beginning of the flight testing
of PH-DIY. ..
Yes indeed, they have been changing things over quite a lot initially. I don't
remember it's current state, but at one point the original oil cooler was taken
out, and replaced with a smaller oil cooler on a dedicated NACA-inlet (not in
tandem with the water cooler), dumping the air into the cowling itself. On top
of that an oil-water heat exchanger and a cowl-flap. Built to very high standards
and very cool looking, but most importantly: this setup worked a treat...
--------
Marcel Zwakenberg
XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458878#458878
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| Subject: | Re: 8.33khz and the Netherlands |
bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co wrote:
> Hi Marcel
> It's always good to talk. Great to hear from you after such a long time. Hope
to meet up at some point.
Likewise, it's been far too long. Hope you can make it to Texel despite the radio
issues...
bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co wrote:
> For me 8:33 De Kooy ...makes it awkward.
Why, do you require to talk to them when flying direct then?
bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co wrote:
> Though we in the UK have had some great news. A confirmation that in the UK
will now gain a subsidy from the EU of 20% of the cost of a new 8.33 radio.
About 6 months ago there was talk in Holland about a similar arrangement, but that
got blown away. I have revived that discussion after reading your message
and checking the CAA website. Hey, what would you Brits with your Brexit still
get EU funds and we in The Netherlands don't [Laughing] [Laughing] [Rolling
Eyes] [Rolling Eyes]
--------
Marcel Zwakenberg
XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458879#458879
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| Subject: | Altimeter App Update |
Hi All,
I am still waiting to fix my cracked 912s block and it's too hot to work in the
hangar anyway!
Just a quick update that avAltimeter now supports iPads with Barometer hardware.
That includes the iPad Mini 4, the iPad Air 2, and the iPad Pro series, in addition
to the iPhone 6 and later.
The new version, 1.0.5, made it into the App Store today.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458888#458888
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground |
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Hash: SHA1
On 07/29/2016 11:41 AM, Roland wrote:
> The oil/water exchanger is generally a brilliant idea, but only
> with ample cooling reserves, which I don't have unfortunately.
Just a few notes:
After a lot testing it became obvious that the whole single problem of
the Europa cooling is that the radiator is way too thick, so air won't
flow easily through it. (It is NOT a cylinder wall cooling problem
like some people seem to think. Although you could get a little bit
more margin by blowing more air over the engine, it is not an
efficient solution. It is like driving your car with a clogged
radiator, and then discovering if you leave off the hood that it will
improve the situation a bit. It works, but it is not the correct way
to do it).
This became quite obvious when I observed the Dimona's towing gliders
at my homefield, they have exactly the same engine but tow gliders
during a hot day with full power climbs at low airspeeds, without any
problems.
After going through the whole process of lowering the oil radiator,
widening the dog house exit, making more holes in the cowling, I had
still not a very good cooling.
All problems were immediately solved when I kicked out the old coolant
radiator and replaced it with a thin radiator just like they use in
Dimona's and other commercial Rotax driven aircraft.
So, what I did was:
1) Close the two "eyes" in front of the cowling. They don't serve any
purpose. Also close the "gills".
2) Put a thin radiator in the "belly" of the cowling. The air exiting
the radiator is dumped "as is" into the cowling, and aimed at the
bottom of the engine (and exhaust tubes and damper). It helps cooling
the bottom of the engine where the oil collects and of course it also
helps if the heat from the exhaust is blown away before it can heat up
the engine bay.
3) Cooling the oil is done with a heat exchanger where the oil heat is
transferred to the coolant. This has several benefits:
a) The oil temperature will be slightly warmer than the coolant,
exactly what you want.
b) The oil will be warmed up more quickly when you start the engine.
c) If you get the coolant temp right, the oil temp will be right as well.
d) It doesn't need any airflow, the whole setup is straigtforward.
4) I took away the doghouse and cowling exit and replaced it by an
almost level flap. Typically during flight the underside of the flap
is only 1cm(!) lower than the rest of the airplane. That's right, the
cooling is now so efficient that you don't need the doghouse at all
but just a sleek 1cm "doghouse" is sufficient.
5) I rerouted the exhaust through a "tunnel" ending short of the end
of the tunnel. This will create a ventury which will suck air through
the tunnel. I never tested this but it is assumed that this will help
the airflow through the cowling and it also lowers the drag of the
exhaust.
The result:
1) Enough cooling for any circumstances. Cooling is no longer an
issue. I can idle the engine unlimited time while on a mediterran hot
tarmac with temperatures around 40C. I can climb at full power with 60
knots airspeed as long as I want. There are no cooling problems at all
anymore.
2) Way less drag. The doghouse is gone, with its associated vacuum
hole and turbulent air dragging behind it. Less air is spilled for
cooling, so less air is disturbed. I estimate that I gained around 8
knots of speed by this conversion.
> As for the efforts with the Dutch CAA - there isn't a Europa
> Trigear flying with the Woodcomp SR 3000 W AFAIK (Frans Feldmann
> has the 2-bladed). For the "glijkstelling" this is required IIRC.
So you can have the 2-bladed prop because I (Dutch) have it already. A
2-blade prop is more efficient than a 3-blade prop, just like a single
plane aircraft is faster than a bi-plane. Leading edge is costly. The
less "leading edge" you have racing around bumping air molecules away,
the less drag. I did not find any disadvantages of having a two blade
prop, although it is said that carb balancing is more important. I
keep my carbs balanced anyway so for me it is no issue. Oh and it
saves some 4 Kg of gyroscoping weight at the nose.
Because the two bladed prop is a little bit longer, I extended the
nose gear 5cm to restore the ground clearance, but probably it is not
really necessary.
I would have invited you for a look at the PH-DIY, but I'm sailing
around the world (I'm currently in Tahiti).
Frans
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| Subject: | Re: Rain passing through fuel cap |
Was the design for the fuel cap changed slightly so that the new ones do not seal
correctly in an old fitting? I think I remember a post on that some time ago.
Can you get replacement o-rings from eBay or Amazon instead of replacing the whole
cap?
Alan
GOBJT
Sent from my iPad
> On 29 Jul 2016, at 19:49, Kevin Challis <cakeykev@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mine fitted fine until I was rushing one day and left it off !!!!!!
>
> The new one from Europa has never fitted very well, is difficult to remove and
doesn't seal.
>
> Kevin Challis
>
>
>> On 29 Jul 2016, at 20:11, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks again for all the info; I spoke to Karen at Europa today, and received
a helpful email off-list telling me that there should be an o-ring. I've ordered
a new cap for a fairly reasonable 26.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458876#458876
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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