---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/15/17: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:07 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (spcialeffects) 2. 02:41 AM - Re: Fuel Cover Belt (Raimo Toivio) 3. 03:39 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees =?UTF-8?Q?right=3F? (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 4. 03:52 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (Roger Sheridan) 5. 06:46 AM - EUROPA XS GAS STRUTS (willydewey) 6. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Cover Belt (Tim Ward) 7. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Cover Belt (Raimo Toivio) 8. 01:58 PM - Rubber too hard or too soft? (William Bliss) 9. 02:09 PM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk) 10. 03:03 PM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (jonathanmilbank) 11. 03:07 PM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (Robert Borger) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:15 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 1.5 degrees right? From: "spcialeffects" Hello Jonathan, Frank Xuereb here. If you watch 'a plane is born' when he gets the engine delivered Mark gives quite a good explanation as to the reason for the offset. Basically on full throttle the wind wash created by the prop would hit the port side of the fin and give a tendency to push you to the left. This is of course easily corrected by right rudder input but to help reduce this effect the back of the engine is offset by 27mm but keeps the prop flange at 90 degrees. Good luck, Frank kit 165 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465092#465092 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:57 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Cover Belt From: Raimo Toivio Hi Tim, I had already forgotten I sent you this belt. Must be about 7 years ago? Very nice to see you have found a way to use it! I also noticed the blue color match well to your blue cobra! I have used these belts to secure all kind of stuff like beer boxes. Also, its handy when securing a dog or a cats cage. allekirjoitus I elected to attach the fuel cobra by Velcro (lighter way but absolutely not so sexy ;). This winter I will finally prepare a revolutionary safety belt mod. Coming back. Tim, I just happen to look the satellite image from your home. You have a very homelike home and a nice pool there. I noticed also something very exciting - giant letters TIM on the roof! I hereby request a permission to copy that idea! (I have OH-XRT letters on the roof of the EFTP hangar, but never understood they could be also here, home) Thanks! Cheers, Raimo Europa OH-XRT #417 Finland 14.1.2017, 23:51, Tim Ward kirjoitti: > Hi Raimo, > Just read your article on shifting your Europa and thought I must show Raimo the use of his seat belt he sent me. > As my fuel cover kept on falling off and trying different ways to keep it in place I finally came across the perfect way. The belt goes right around the 'cobra' which makes it a reliable fix. > Many thanks, looks perfect. Will turn it up the other way. > Cheers, > Tim > > > Tim Ward > 12 Waiwetu Street, > Fendalton, > Christchurch, 8052 > New Zealand > > ward.t@xtra.co.nz > > Mob +64 210640221 > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:53 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees =?UTF-8?Q?right=3F? Jonathan, I suspect you are dealing with two distinct effects here. The tendency to roll to the right suggests to me that you have slightly different effective angles of attack on the two wings, either because of how the wings were constructed or because of how they were attached to the fuselage. This seems to be very common and a small piece of triangular section wood, length adjusted for effect, under (in your case ) the port aileron will correct it. As previously stated the engine offset is there to correct the tendency for the clockwise spiral propwash around the fuselage impinging on the left side of the fin and tending to produce a left turn. This effect is most noticeable on take off (and probably also in monos) when at max power and lowish speed with limited rudder authority, when a significant amount of Right rudder is needed to keep in a straight line. It is also noticeable in a full power lowish speed climb. I believe that the amount of offset is designed to allow hands off balanced straight flight at typical cruise speeds/power, whilst also helping to maintain control authority on take off. Regards, David Joyce,GXSDJ On 2017-01-14 22:41, jonathanmilbank wrote: > > I'm converting my Classic to XS firewall forward and the instructions for mounting the engine call for the 4 washers on each lord mount to be arranged so that the engine is angled 1.5 degrees to the right. > > The Classic build manual didn't give this stipulation and so mine was pointing straight ahead. What effect will there likely be when I start flying in the new configuration. Up until now there has been a tendency for the aircraft to roll gently to the right in the cruise. > > Will angling the engine to the right make the right roll tendency better or worse? Please give me the aerodynamic logic for this 1.5 degree offset. > > Thanks. > Jonathan > Of how they are mounted on the fuselage. This is very common and can be readily corrected with a small trangular section of wood stuck under the (in your case) port aileron > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465078#465078 [1] > Links: ------ [1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465078#465078 [2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [3] http://forums.matronics.com [4] http://wiki.matronics.com [5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:48 AM PST US From: Roger Sheridan Subject: Re: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right? Further info here for bookworms! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/246742/TailWheel1.pdf > On 15 Jan 2017, at 11:38, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote: > > Jonathan, I suspect you are dealing with two distinct effects here. The tendency to roll to the right suggests to me that you have slightly different effective angles of attack on the two wings, either because of how the wings were constructed or because of how they were attached to the fuselage. This seems to be very common and a small piece of triangular section wood, length adjusted for effect, under (in your case ) the port aileron will correct it. As previously stated the engine offset is there to correct the tendency for the clockwise spiral propwash around the fuselage impinging on the left side of the fin and tending to produce a left turn. This effect is most noticeable on take off (and probably also in monos) when at max power and lowish speed with limited rudder authority, when a significant amount of Right rudder is needed to keep in a straight line. It is also noticeable in a full power lowish speed climb. I believe that the amount of offset is designed to allow hands off balanced straight flight at typical cruise speeds/power, whilst also helping to maintain control authority on take off. Regards, David Joyce,GXSDJ > > > > On 2017-01-14 22:41, jonathanmilbank wrote: > > >> >> I'm converting my Classic to XS firewall forward and the instructions for mounting the engine call for the 4 washers on each lord mount to be arranged so that the engine is angled 1.5 degrees to the right. >> >> The Classic build manual didn't give this stipulation and so mine was pointing straight ahead. What effect will there likely be when I start flying in the new configuration. Up until now there has been a tendency for the aircraft to roll gently to the right in the cruise. >> >> Will angling the engine to the right make the right roll tendency better or worse? Please give me the aerodynamic logic for this 1.5 degree offset. >> >> Thanks. >> Jonathan >> Of how they are mounted on the fuselage. This is very common and can be readily corrected with a small trangular section of wood stuck under the (in your case) port aileron >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465078#465078 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ics.com >> .com >> .matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:49 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: EUROPA XS GAS STRUTS From: "willydewey" Hi Guys My Gas struts are becoming a little feeble and probably need regassing. When I had a CT2K I did this myself by placing them inside my compressor storage tank. It was a bit hit and miss but worked quite well. As I have a bit more time I would like to repeat the exercise but would appreciate from a member the exact pressure the XS struts should be Thanks in anticipation and Blue Skies and Light Winds for 2017 Bill Dewey Guildford U.K. -------- Give a wise man knowledge and he will be yet wiser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465099#465099 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Cover Belt From: Tim Ward Hi Raimo, Permission granted! Every time I take the children flying, when they were young, they would alw ays ask "which house is ours". Remedy, when painting the roof which has a fl at area, paint a big 'TIM' in bold white. Now we have no problems even with o ther passengers it is easy. Hot here now in the 30s Celsius so a pool is ideal. We sometimes get snow in the winter, now it is less often due to climate warming. Going flying today up the Kaikoura coast to see the earthquake damage and th en to Omaka airfield to see Peter Jackson's World War 2 fighter plane museum . Meet my oldest son Angus who will fly down from Palmerston North where he i s flying instructing with Massey University Aviation College. All the best, Keep warm, Cheers, Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, Christchurch, 8052 New Zealand ward.t@xtra.co.nz Mob +64 210640221 > On 15/01/2017, at 11:36 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > > Hi Tim, > > I had already forgotten I sent you this belt. > Must be about 7 years ago? > > Very nice to see you have found a way to use it! > I also noticed the blue color match well to your blue cobra! > > I have used these belts to secure all kind of stuff like beer boxes. > Also, it=C2=B4s handy when securing a dog or a cat=C2=B4s cage. > > > > I elected to attach the fuel cobra by Velcro (lighter way but absolutely n ot so sexy ;). > > This winter I will finally prepare a revolutionary safety belt mod. > Coming back. > > Tim, I just happen to look the satellite image from your home. > You have a very homelike home and a nice pool there. > I noticed also something very exciting - giant letters TIM on the roof! > > I hereby request a permission to copy that idea! > > (I have OH-XRT letters on the roof of the EFTP hangar, but never understoo d they could be also here, home) > > Thanks! > > > Cheers, > Raimo > Europa OH-XRT #417 > Finland > > > 14.1.2017, 23:51, Tim Ward kirjoitti: >> Hi Raimo, >> Just read your article on shifting your Europa and thought I must show R aimo the use of his seat belt he sent me. >> As my fuel cover kept on falling off and trying different ways to keep it in place I finally came across the perfect way. The belt goes right around t he 'cobra' which makes it a reliable fix. >> Many thanks, looks perfect. Will turn it up the other way. >> Cheers, >> Tim >> >> >> >> >> >> Tim Ward >> 12 Waiwetu Street, >> Fendalton, >> Christchurch, 8052 >> New Zealand >> >> ward.t@xtra.co.nz >> >> Mob +64 210640221 >> > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Cover Belt From: Raimo Toivio Hi Tim, thanks for that - obviously I have to make not-white and illuminated letters XRT to make them visible. Here is 2 years old satellite image from our place - Koivuniementie *69* Lempl Finland. Apron and twr has been built afterwards. Europa Factory is the uppermost building. You can see our pool under the word "tie" [road]. The pool is covered to make it cleaner and more economical. During blue sky days, the covers are sliding away. We heat it by water-air heat pump to keep it continously +32C. Max power is 20kW. When it goes below +30C, we let it freeze. That means its usable from Mars-April to November-December. You see the sign behind? And red light? Im pretty sure you like this! And also this. We need it to remember, that there is a beer tap inside. During spring, we install one beer barrell there. When its empty, we connect the tap to the fresh water (wifes order!). This is a typical summer-temperature-set up here: Pool (Lagoon, green) +32C Pool area when coverred (Caribbean, orange) +21C (max +48C!!!) Air (Finland, white) +14C (max below +30C in shadow) River (Lake, blue) +15C (max below +26C) *** About climate change, I heard today that there will be jackals in Finland soon. Maybe kangaroos and one day Kiwi-birds also as well as opossums. Massey University Aviation College sounds fantastic! I have to give a tip to my older daughter... Yes, all the best and earthquakeless time for you. Keep cold! Cheers, Raimo Finland PS: this was not so Europa-related posting. However, its because Europas. Sorry... And yes, you all can order FB beer from us! - only beer in the world brewed to aircraft standards by pilots to pilots and also to normal people... 15.1.2017, 19:39, Tim Ward kirjoitti: > Hi Raimo, > Permission granted! > Every time I take the children flying, when they were young, they > would always ask "which house is ours". Remedy, when painting the roof > which has a flat area, paint a big 'TIM' in bold white. Now we have no > problems even with other passengers it is easy. > Hot here now in the 30s Celsius so a pool is ideal. We sometimes get > snow in the winter, now it is less often due to climate warming. > Going flying today up the Kaikoura coast to see the earthquake damage > and then to Omaka airfield to see Peter Jackson's World War 2 fighter > plane museum. Meet my oldest son Angus who will fly down from > Palmerston North where he is flying instructing with Massey University > Aviation College. > > All the best, > > Keep warm, > > Cheers, > Tim > > > Tim Ward > 12 Waiwetu Street, > Fendalton, > Christchurch, 8052 > New Zealand > > ward.t@xtra.co.nz > > Mob +64 210640221 > > > On 15/01/2017, at 11:36 PM, Raimo Toivio > wrote: > >> Hi Tim, >> >> I had already forgotten I sent you this belt. >> Must be about 7 years ago? >> >> Very nice to see you have found a way to use it! >> I also noticed the blue color match well to your blue cobra! >> >> I have used these belts to secure all kind of stuff like beer boxes. >> Also, its handy when securing a dog or a cats cage. >> allekirjoitus >> >> >> I elected to attach the fuel cobra by Velcro (lighter way but >> absolutely not so sexy ;). >> >> This winter I will finally prepare a revolutionary safety belt mod. >> Coming back. >> >> Tim, I just happen to look the satellite image from your home. >> You have a very homelike home and a nice pool there. >> I noticed also something very exciting - giant letters TIM on the roof! >> >> I hereby request a permission to copy that idea! >> >> (I have OH-XRT letters on the roof of the EFTP hangar, but never >> understood they could be also here, home) >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> Cheers, >> Raimo >> Europa OH-XRT #417 >> Finland >> >> >> >> 14.1.2017, 23:51, Tim Ward kirjoitti: >>> Hi Raimo, >>> Just read your article on shifting your Europa and thought I must show Raimo the use of his seat belt he sent me. >>> As my fuel cover kept on falling off and trying different ways to keep it in place I finally came across the perfect way. The belt goes right around the 'cobra' which makes it a reliable fix. >>> Many thanks, looks perfect. Will turn it up the other way. >>> Cheers, >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tim Ward >>> 12 Waiwetu Street, >>> Fendalton, >>> Christchurch, 8052 >>> New Zealand >>> >>> ward.t@xtra.co.nz >>> >>> Mob +64 210640221 >>> >> ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:39 PM PST US From: William Bliss Subject: Europa-List: Rubber too hard or too soft? Dear All I have lost the thread - with the important details about the engine mount rubbers. Are the ones Europa have supplied said to be too hard or too soft? Does anyone know where the correct ones can be bought? William G-WUFF ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:09:06 PM PST US From: nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right? Jonathan, I think you have provided the answer to your own question. The fact that you have run your Classic with no engine offset and noticed no asymmetric flying characteristics speaks volumes. The whole idea of canting an engine sideways and forcing the propeller disc through the air at anything other than normal to the oncoming airstream is daft. The theory that canting the engine sideways will counter the yaw effect of the prop wash seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what is really happening and its done because thats how its always been done! On your Classic, you sensibly mounted your engine head on to the wind and you set you propeller blades pitch to the recommended angle. Each time the blades rotate their angles of attack remain equal to each other and constant to the oncoming wind and each blade generates the same thrust throughout each revolution of the prop. Now consider what happens when you follow the XS build instructions and cant the engine 1.5 degrees to the right. If youre flying straight-and-level behind a right-hand tractor (Rotax 912, 914), each time a blade passes over the top of the ark, its pitch is effectively reduced by 1.5 degrees and as it swings through the bottom of the ark, its effective pitch is increased by 1.5 degrees. This means that your propeller is producing significantly more thrust from the bottom half of the propeller disc than the top half and that produces a pitch up change in attitude and not the sideways thrust you had hoped to achieve by mounting the engine sideways. So if thats true, why has nobody noticed this pitch up attitude? a good question (even though I asked it myself). All Europas are fitted with a pitch trimmer so these effects are unconsciously trimmed out by the pilot during different phases of flight. Ah, but what about the propensity to swing to the left on take-off? - Same thing, different plane. The Monowheel sits on the ground at a deck angle of (is it about 12 degrees? I forget) so the engine is now canted up at the front by this amount. At the beginning of the take-off run, the upcoming blade on the left hand side has 12 degrees wound off its effective pitch, while the down going blade on the right has 12 degrees added to its pitch. This produces significantly more thrust on the right hand side of the disc than the left, resulting in a turning moment to the left. It's a potential problem with all tail-draggers The Tri-Gear variant of course sits horizontally on the ground, so has none of this asymmetric thrust so is less prone to dive off to the left on take off; another reason why the Tri-Gear is perceived to be more benign than the Mono. Canting an engine is a very crude way of addressing a relatively transient problem Fitting a rudder trimmer would be a far more elegant solution should it be necessary. Hope that wasnt too long winded! Nigel PS the roll issue has nothing to do with engine position. Quoting jonathanmilbank : > > I'm converting my Classic to XS firewall forward and the > instructions for mounting the engine call for the 4 washers on each > lord mount to be arranged so that the engine is angled 1.5 degrees > to the right. > > The Classic build manual didn't give this stipulation and so mine > was pointing straight ahead. What effect will there likely be when I > start flying in the new configuration. Up until now there has been a > tendency for the aircraft to roll gently to the right in the cruise. > > Will angling the engine to the right make the right roll tendency > better or worse? Please give me the aerodynamic logic for this 1.5 > degree offset. > > Thanks. > Jonathan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465078#465078 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:52 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 1.5 degrees right? From: "jonathanmilbank" Wow and what a plethora of replies! Thanks very much to all of you. Shortly after I posted this topic and before any replies came in, a fellow Europa pilot confirmed in advance much of what you guys have explained and your responses are excellent. He mentioned that when he let someone else have a go on the Europa's controls, the guy was caught out by the amount of left yaw during the go-around at low speed from a missed approach. My friend had to assist, so clearly some people would benefit from the engine being offset by 1.5 degrees. I suppose that once anyone gets used to the aircraft, then applying right pedal when increasing power becomes instinctive. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465122#465122 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:39 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right? Nigel, Thanks for the detailed description. I have often wondered about the effectiveness of the offset. It just didn=99t seem right to me. At some point in the future I=99ll have to unbolt the engine for something. When I do, I=99ll remove the offset and see what difference it makes. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jan 15, 2017, at 4:08 PM, nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk wrote: Jonathan, I think you have provided the answer to your own question. The fact that you have run your Classic with no engine offset and noticed no asymmetric flying characteristics speaks volumes. The whole idea of canting an engine sideways and forcing the propeller disc through the air at anything other than normal to the oncoming airstream is daft. The theory that canting the engine sideways will counter the yaw effect of the prop wash seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what is really happening and it=99s done because =9Cthat=99s how it=99s always been done=9D! On your Classic, you sensibly mounted your engine head on to the wind and you set you propeller blades pitch to the recommended angle. Each time the blades rotate their angles of attack remain equal to each other and constant to the oncoming wind and each blade generates the same thrust throughout each revolution of the prop. Now consider what happens when you follow the XS build instructions and cant the engine 1.5 degrees to the right. If you=99re flying straight-and-level behind a right-hand tractor (Rotax 912, 914), each time a blade passes over the top of the ark, its pitch is effectively reduced by 1.5 degrees and as it swings through the bottom of the ark, its effective pitch is increased by 1.5 degrees. This means that your propeller is producing significantly more thrust from the bottom half of the propeller disc than the top half =93 and that produces a pitch up change in attitude =93 and not the sideways thrust you had hoped to achieve by mounting the engine sideways. =9CSo if that=99s true, why has nobody noticed this pitch up attitude?=9D =93 a good question (even though I asked it myself). All Europa=99s are fitted with a pitch trimmer =93 so these effects are unconsciously trimmed out by the pilot during different phases of flight. =9CAh, but what about the propensity to swing to the left on take-off?=9D - Same thing, different plane. The Monowheel sits on the ground at a deck angle of (is it about 12 degrees? I forget) so the engine is now canted up at the front by this amount. At the beginning of the take-off run, the upcoming blade on the left hand side has 12 degrees wound off its effective pitch, while the down going blade on the right has 12 degrees added to its pitch. This produces significantly more thrust on the right hand side of the disc than the left, resulting in a turning moment to the left. It's a potential problem with all tail-draggers The Tri-Gear variant of course sits horizontally on the ground, so has none of this asymmetric thrust =93 so is less prone to dive off to the left on take off; another reason why the Tri-Gear is perceived to be more benign than the Mono. Canting an engine is a very crude way of addressing a relatively transient problem =93 Fitting a rudder trimmer would be a far more elegant solution =93 should it be necessary. Hope that wasn=99t too long winded! Nigel PS the roll issue has nothing to do with engine position. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.