Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:12 AM - Re: Rubber too hard or too soft? (Roger Sheridan)
2. 01:34 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (Peter Jeffers)
3. 01:59 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (JonSmith)
4. 02:22 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (JonSmith)
5. 02:45 AM - Re: Re: 1.5 degrees =?UTF-8?Q?right=3F? (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
6. 02:56 AM - Re: EUROPA XS GAS STRUTS (John Wighton)
7. 06:23 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (Bob Harrison)
8. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: 1.5 degrees right? (Bud Yerly)
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| Subject: | Re: Rubber too hard or too soft? |
Hi William,
Karen, at Europa, told me they have the correct grade in stock now.
Roger
> On 15 Jan 2017, at 21:58, William Bliss <william@wbliss.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Dear All
> I have lost the thread - with the important details about the engine mount rubbers.
Are the ones Europa have supplied said to be too hard or too soft? Does
anyone know where the correct ones can be bought?
>
> William G-WUFF
>
>
>
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| Subject: | 1.5 degrees right? |
Hi all,
Just for the record. In the early pre history build of the classic
Europa the instructions said that the correct setup for the engine
would be achieved if the 'washers' were adjusted such that the spinner
lined up with the cowling. That supposedly gave us the 1.5 degree right
offset. Nothing further was said on this issue. My only comment is that
it was a bit crude but seemed to work.
A word of advice for Bob is that if you change your current setup for
the engine mount then your spinner will not line up with your cowling.
It is possible to address this misalignment but not simple.
Pete J
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Borger
Sent: 15 January 2017 23:07
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right?
Nigel,
Thanks for the detailed description. I have often wondered about the
effectiveness of the offset. It just didn=99t seem right to me.
At some point in the future I=99ll have to unbolt the engine for
something. When I do, I=99ll remove the offset and see what
difference it makes.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jan 15, 2017, at 4:08 PM, nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk wrote:
Jonathan,
I think you have provided the answer to your own question.
The fact that you have run your Classic with no engine offset and
noticed no asymmetric flying characteristics speaks volumes.
The whole idea of canting an engine sideways and forcing the propeller
disc through the air at anything other than normal to the oncoming
airstream is daft.
The theory that canting the engine sideways will counter the yaw effect
of the prop wash seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what is
really happening and it=99s done because =9Cthat=99s
how it=99s always been done=9D!
On your Classic, you sensibly mounted your engine head on to the wind
and you set you propeller blades pitch to the recommended angle. Each
time the blades rotate their angles of attack remain equal to each other
and constant to the oncoming wind and each blade generates the same
thrust throughout each revolution of the prop.
Now consider what happens when you follow the XS build instructions and
cant the engine 1.5 degrees to the right.
If you=99re flying straight-and-level behind a right-hand tractor
(Rotax 912, 914), each time a blade passes over the top of the ark, its
pitch is effectively reduced by 1.5 degrees and as it swings through the
bottom of the ark, its effective pitch is increased by 1.5 degrees.
This means that your propeller is producing significantly more thrust
from the bottom half of the propeller disc than the top half =93
and that produces a pitch up change in attitude =93 and not the
sideways thrust you had hoped to achieve by mounting the engine
sideways.
=9CSo if that=99s true, why has nobody noticed this pitch up
attitude?=9D =93 a good question (even though I asked it
myself).
All Europa=99s are fitted with a pitch trimmer =93 so these
effects are unconsciously trimmed out by the pilot during different
phases of flight.
=9CAh, but what about the propensity to swing to the left on
take-off?=9D - Same thing, different plane.
The Monowheel sits on the ground at a deck angle of (is it about 12
degrees? I forget) so the engine is now canted up at the front by this
amount. At the beginning of the take-off run, the upcoming blade on the
left hand side has 12 degrees wound off its effective pitch, while the
down going blade on the right has 12 degrees added to its pitch. This
produces significantly more thrust on the right hand side of the disc
than the left, resulting in a turning moment to the left. It's a
potential problem with all tail-draggers
The Tri-Gear variant of course sits horizontally on the ground, so has
none of this asymmetric thrust =93 so is less prone to dive off to
the left on take off; another reason why the Tri-Gear is perceived to be
more benign than the Mono.
Canting an engine is a very crude way of addressing a relatively
transient problem =93 Fitting a rudder trimmer would be a far more
elegant solution =93 should it be necessary.
Hope that wasn=99t too long winded!
Nigel
PS the roll issue has nothing to do with engine position.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/email-signature>
01/15/17
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| Subject: | Re: 1.5 degrees right? |
Hi Graham, I found your posting most interesting and thought provoking. You go
beyond my old "pilot book"! We are all familiar to a certain extent with the
old classic theories of propeller effects; torque, asymmetric blade, gyroscopic
etc but I'd never considered detrimental effects caused by an engine offset.
I remember quite well the famous diagram of the propeller slipstream helix spiralling
around the fuselage and whacking the fin on one side or the other depending
on direction of engine rotation - in our Rotax-Europa case the left side
of the fin causing the nose to yaw more and more to the left with increasing power.
Certainly in my aircraft on the rare perfectly calm and smooth day with
no other influencing factors I notice on take off that at the point of lift off
a considerable amount of right rudder input is required at that point, nearly
half I'd say.
I suppose that aircraft design is always a compromise and there are various solutions
to counter this problem, engine offsets, rudder trims (fixed and inflight
adjustable), offset fins etc, all designed to help make life easier for the
poor pilot who has to cope with the cacophony of forces his machine is constantly
bombarded with! Our Europa is as basic as you can get in it's standard form
with the options of an offset engine mounting and/ or fixed rudder trim tab
or nothing!
I note and accept what you say about an engine offset causing inefficiencies and
undesirable handling tendencies and that from a perfect performance point of
view it would be absolutely the best for the engine to be mounted square on to
the airflow but wouldn't the overall effect of the thrust vector being offset
completely outweigh these minor undesirable tendencies and make life easier
for the pilot? My instinct tells me that the unwanted effects would be relatively
insignificant but I genuinely don't know....!
I've always considered that aircraft compromised by simplicity would in the ideal
world be set up to fly perfectly straight and balanced with hands and feet
off in the cruise as that's what we spend most of the time doing. Thus in a perfect
aircraft with the engine correctly offset this should be achieved without
any extra trim tabs, assuming the designer got his sums correct with the offset!
(I'm lucky I think because my aircraft seems to achieve this quite nicely!).
I also note that you believe a rudder trim tab to be a better solution
than an engine offset. Do you consider that having the rudder permanently offset
into the airflow to keep the aircraft balanced to be more efficient than the
minor unwanted propeller blade effects caused by having an engine offset?
Again I'm only asking the question because I genuinely don't know..!
I believe that a correctly offset engine will assist the pilot during take off
by reducing the amount of right rudder deflection required throughout. Without
any offset to help, surely more right rudder deflection would be needed to keep
straight thus effectively reducing the maximum crosswind component from the
left that the aircraft itself could cope with? A rudder trim would not help
this situation of course - it might make reduce the load on the pilot's leg but
the actual rudder deflection is still required.
As I say, an interesting post, I'm very open minded but am yet to be convinced
that I have made a mistake by following the manual and building mine WITH the
quoted 1.5 degree offset....!
--------
G-TERN
Classic Mono
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465129#465129
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| Subject: | Re: 1.5 degrees right? |
NIGEL - Doh - I'm very sorry to get your name the wrong way round in my post above.
I woke up early and it was still far too early when I wrote it.....! That
plus old age!
Cheers, Jon
--------
G-TERN
Classic Mono
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465130#465130
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| Subject: | Re: 1.5 degrees =?UTF-8?Q?right=3F? |
Nigel, following on from this, I am most reluctant to believe that Ivan
Shaw and Don Dykins (one of the outstanding aerodynamicists of our
time!) got it wrong, or for that matter generations of designers of
Spitfire/Hurricane era aircraft - which I believe al had engine offset
and fin offset incorporated, but even so were close to unmanageable if
full power was used on take off. Performance then was very much a matter
of life and death and an immense amount of research went into optimising
performance - I certainly don't buy the notion that folk have always
done it because someone did it back in the dark ages and no-one has
thought rationally about it since!
Offsetting the engine 1.5 degrees makes negligible difference to
forward thrust - actually reduces it by just 0.03%, but using permanent
right rudder induces extra drag which must be an appreciably greater
amount.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-01-16 09:58, JonSmith wrote:
>
> Hi Graham, I found your posting most interesting and thought provoking. You go
beyond my old "pilot book"! We are all familiar to a certain extent with the
old classic theories of propeller effects; torque, asymmetric blade, gyroscopic
etc but I'd never considered detrimental effects caused by an engine offset.
>
> I remember quite well the famous diagram of the propeller slipstream helix spiralling
around the fuselage and whacking the fin on one side or the other depending
on direction of engine rotation - in our Rotax-Europa case the left side
of the fin causing the nose to yaw more and more to the left with increasing
power. Certainly in my aircraft on the rare perfectly calm and smooth day with
no other influencing factors I notice on take off that at the point of lift
off a considerable amount of right rudder input is required at that point, nearly
half I'd say.
>
> I suppose that aircraft design is always a compromise and there are various solutions
to counter this problem, engine offsets, rudder trims (fixed and inflight
adjustable), offset fins etc, all designed to help make life easier for the
poor pilot who has to cope with the cacophony of forces his machine is constantly
bombarded with! Our Europa is as basic as you can get in it's standard
form with the options of an offset engine mounting and/ or fixed rudder trim tab
or nothing!
>
> I note and accept what you say about an engine offset causing inefficiencies
and undesirable handling tendencies and that from a perfect performance point
of view it would be absolutely the best for the engine to be mounted square on
to the airflow but wouldn't the overall effect of the thrust vector being offset
completely outweigh these minor undesirable tendencies and make life easier
for the pilot? My instinct tells me that the unwanted effects would be relatively
insignificant but I genuinely don't know....!
>
> I've always considered that aircraft compromised by simplicity would in the ideal
world be set up to fly perfectly straight and balanced with hands and feet
off in the cruise as that's what we spend most of the time doing. Thus in a
perfect aircraft with the engine correctly offset this should be achieved without
any extra trim tabs, assuming the designer got his sums correct with the offset!
(I'm lucky I think because my aircraft seems to achieve this quite nicely!).
I also note that you believe a rudder trim tab to be a better solution than
an engine offset. Do you consider that having the rudder permanently offset
into the airflow to keep the aircraft balanced to be more efficient than the
minor unwanted propeller blade effects caused by having an engine offset? Again
I'm only asking the question because I genuinely don't know..!
>
> I believe that a correctly offset engine will assist the pilot during take off
by reducing the amount of right rudder deflection required throughout. Without
any offset to help, surely more right rudder deflection would be needed to
keep straight thus effectively reducing the maximum crosswind component from the
left that the aircraft itself could cope with? A rudder trim would not help
this situation of course - it might make reduce the load on the pilot's leg but
the actual rudder deflection is still required.
>
> As I say, an interesting post, I'm very open minded but am yet to be convinced
that I have made a mistake by following the manual and building mine WITH the
quoted 1.5 degree offset....!
>
> --------
> G-TERN
> Classic Mono
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465129#465129 [1]
>
Links:
------
[1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465129#465129
[2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[3] http://forums.matronics.com
[4] http://wiki.matronics.com
[5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: EUROPA XS GAS STRUTS |
Try sales@igsltd.co.uk they are quick and efficient- and know the right pressure.
165N (yes, that is not a pressure) appears correct for the Europa.
They charged 32.00 all in, 50% of which is postage.
Also try Karen at Europa if you wish to go OE route.
Regards
JW
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465132#465132
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| Subject: | 1.5 degrees right? |
Hi! Pete and in response to all .....and when all is done and said
don=99t forget to allow for =9Cprop-wash=9D when doing
all your theorising .
The mono would be uncontrolled in a =9Cfull chat=9D turbo
wide open takeoff situation with my CS Woodcomp selected in
=9Ctake off=9D .Even in trike configuration it requires full
Rudder to remain straight ahead. Then add a considerable cross wind and
you are set for a ground loop immediately the rear wheel brakes clear of
the runway. Without differential braking the Fin and rudder
don=99t have adequate authority .......IMHO ! Having said that I
have landed at Marehamn against a 35 Knot wind from the Port side with
rotor effect from trees 200 yards to the port side. Thank the lord for
trike differential braking in that event.
Regards to all
Bob Harrison G-PTAG.
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Jeffers
Sent: 16 January 2017 09:34
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right?
Hi all,
Just for the record. In the early pre history build of the classic
Europa the instructions said that the correct setup for the engine
would be achieved if the 'washers' were adjusted such that the spinner
lined up with the cowling. That supposedly gave us the 1.5 degree right
offset. Nothing further was said on this issue. My only comment is that
it was a bit crude but seemed to work.
A word of advice for Bob is that if you change your current setup for
the engine mount then your spinner will not line up with your cowling.
It is possible to address this misalignment but not simple.
Pete J
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Borger
Sent: 15 January 2017 23:07
Subject: Re: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right?
Nigel,
Thanks for the detailed description. I have often wondered about the
effectiveness of the offset. It just didn=99t seem right to me.
At some point in the future I=99ll have to unbolt the engine for
something. When I do, I=99ll remove the offset and see what
difference it makes.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jan 15, 2017, at 4:08 PM, nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk wrote:
Jonathan,
I think you have provided the answer to your own question.
The fact that you have run your Classic with no engine offset and
noticed no asymmetric flying characteristics speaks volumes.
The whole idea of canting an engine sideways and forcing the propeller
disc through the air at anything other than normal to the oncoming
airstream is daft.
The theory that canting the engine sideways will counter the yaw effect
of the prop wash seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what is
really happening and it=99s done because =9Cthat=99s
how it=99s always been done=9D!
On your Classic, you sensibly mounted your engine head on to the wind
and you set you propeller blades pitch to the recommended angle. Each
time the blades rotate their angles of attack remain equal to each other
and constant to the oncoming wind and each blade generates the same
thrust throughout each revolution of the prop.
Now consider what happens when you follow the XS build instructions and
cant the engine 1.5 degrees to the right.
If you=99re flying straight-and-level behind a right-hand tractor
(Rotax 912, 914), each time a blade passes over the top of the ark, its
pitch is effectively reduced by 1.5 degrees and as it swings through the
bottom of the ark, its effective pitch is increased by 1.5 degrees.
This means that your propeller is producing significantly more thrust
from the bottom half of the propeller disc than the top half =93
and that produces a pitch up change in attitude =93 and not the
sideways thrust you had hoped to achieve by mounting the engine
sideways.
=9CSo if that=99s true, why has nobody noticed this pitch up
attitude?=9D =93 a good question (even though I asked it
myself).
All Europa=99s are fitted with a pitch trimmer =93 so these
effects are unconsciously trimmed out by the pilot during different
phases of flight.
=9CAh, but what about the propensity to swing to the left on
take-off?=9D - Same thing, different plane.
The Monowheel sits on the ground at a deck angle of (is it about 12
degrees? I forget) so the engine is now canted up at the front by this
amount. At the beginning of the take-off run, the upcoming blade on the
left hand side has 12 degrees wound off its effective pitch, while the
down going blade on the right has 12 degrees added to its pitch. This
produces significantly more thrust on the right hand side of the disc
than the left, resulting in a turning moment to the left. It's a
potential problem with all tail-draggers
The Tri-Gear variant of course sits horizontally on the ground, so has
none of this asymmetric thrust =93 so is less prone to dive off to
the left on take off; another reason why the Tri-Gear is perceived to be
more benign than the Mono.
Canting an engine is a very crude way of addressing a relatively
transient problem =93 Fitting a rudder trimmer would be a far more
elegant solution =93 should it be necessary.
Hope that wasn=99t too long winded!
Nigel
PS the roll issue has nothing to do with engine position.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/email-signature>
Version: 01/15/17
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/email-signature>
01/16/17
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| Subject: | Re: 1.5 degrees right? |
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