---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/16/17: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:12 AM - Re: Rubber too hard or too soft? (Roger Sheridan) 2. 01:34 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (Peter Jeffers) 3. 01:59 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (JonSmith) 4. 02:22 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (JonSmith) 5. 02:45 AM - Re: Re: 1.5 degrees =?UTF-8?Q?right=3F? (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 6. 02:56 AM - Re: EUROPA XS GAS STRUTS (John Wighton) 7. 06:23 AM - Re: 1.5 degrees right? (Bob Harrison) 8. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: 1.5 degrees right? (Bud Yerly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:54 AM PST US From: Roger Sheridan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rubber too hard or too soft? Hi William, Karen, at Europa, told me they have the correct grade in stock now. Roger > On 15 Jan 2017, at 21:58, William Bliss wrote: > > > Dear All > I have lost the thread - with the important details about the engine mount rubbers. Are the ones Europa have supplied said to be too hard or too soft? Does anyone know where the correct ones can be bought? > > William G-WUFF > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:24 AM PST US From: "Peter Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right? Hi all, Just for the record. In the early pre history build of the classic Europa the instructions said that the correct setup for the engine would be achieved if the 'washers' were adjusted such that the spinner lined up with the cowling. That supposedly gave us the 1.5 degree right offset. Nothing further was said on this issue. My only comment is that it was a bit crude but seemed to work. A word of advice for Bob is that if you change your current setup for the engine mount then your spinner will not line up with your cowling. It is possible to address this misalignment but not simple. Pete J From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: 15 January 2017 23:07 Subject: Re: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right? Nigel, Thanks for the detailed description. I have often wondered about the effectiveness of the offset. It just didn=99t seem right to me. At some point in the future I=99ll have to unbolt the engine for something. When I do, I=99ll remove the offset and see what difference it makes. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jan 15, 2017, at 4:08 PM, nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk wrote: Jonathan, I think you have provided the answer to your own question. The fact that you have run your Classic with no engine offset and noticed no asymmetric flying characteristics speaks volumes. The whole idea of canting an engine sideways and forcing the propeller disc through the air at anything other than normal to the oncoming airstream is daft. The theory that canting the engine sideways will counter the yaw effect of the prop wash seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what is really happening and it=99s done because =9Cthat=99s how it=99s always been done=9D! On your Classic, you sensibly mounted your engine head on to the wind and you set you propeller blades pitch to the recommended angle. Each time the blades rotate their angles of attack remain equal to each other and constant to the oncoming wind and each blade generates the same thrust throughout each revolution of the prop. Now consider what happens when you follow the XS build instructions and cant the engine 1.5 degrees to the right. If you=99re flying straight-and-level behind a right-hand tractor (Rotax 912, 914), each time a blade passes over the top of the ark, its pitch is effectively reduced by 1.5 degrees and as it swings through the bottom of the ark, its effective pitch is increased by 1.5 degrees. This means that your propeller is producing significantly more thrust from the bottom half of the propeller disc than the top half =93 and that produces a pitch up change in attitude =93 and not the sideways thrust you had hoped to achieve by mounting the engine sideways. =9CSo if that=99s true, why has nobody noticed this pitch up attitude?=9D =93 a good question (even though I asked it myself). All Europa=99s are fitted with a pitch trimmer =93 so these effects are unconsciously trimmed out by the pilot during different phases of flight. =9CAh, but what about the propensity to swing to the left on take-off?=9D - Same thing, different plane. The Monowheel sits on the ground at a deck angle of (is it about 12 degrees? I forget) so the engine is now canted up at the front by this amount. At the beginning of the take-off run, the upcoming blade on the left hand side has 12 degrees wound off its effective pitch, while the down going blade on the right has 12 degrees added to its pitch. This produces significantly more thrust on the right hand side of the disc than the left, resulting in a turning moment to the left. It's a potential problem with all tail-draggers The Tri-Gear variant of course sits horizontally on the ground, so has none of this asymmetric thrust =93 so is less prone to dive off to the left on take off; another reason why the Tri-Gear is perceived to be more benign than the Mono. Canting an engine is a very crude way of addressing a relatively transient problem =93 Fitting a rudder trimmer would be a far more elegant solution =93 should it be necessary. Hope that wasn=99t too long winded! Nigel PS the roll issue has nothing to do with engine position. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 01/15/17 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:25 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 1.5 degrees right? From: "JonSmith" Hi Graham, I found your posting most interesting and thought provoking. You go beyond my old "pilot book"! We are all familiar to a certain extent with the old classic theories of propeller effects; torque, asymmetric blade, gyroscopic etc but I'd never considered detrimental effects caused by an engine offset. I remember quite well the famous diagram of the propeller slipstream helix spiralling around the fuselage and whacking the fin on one side or the other depending on direction of engine rotation - in our Rotax-Europa case the left side of the fin causing the nose to yaw more and more to the left with increasing power. Certainly in my aircraft on the rare perfectly calm and smooth day with no other influencing factors I notice on take off that at the point of lift off a considerable amount of right rudder input is required at that point, nearly half I'd say. I suppose that aircraft design is always a compromise and there are various solutions to counter this problem, engine offsets, rudder trims (fixed and inflight adjustable), offset fins etc, all designed to help make life easier for the poor pilot who has to cope with the cacophony of forces his machine is constantly bombarded with! Our Europa is as basic as you can get in it's standard form with the options of an offset engine mounting and/ or fixed rudder trim tab or nothing! I note and accept what you say about an engine offset causing inefficiencies and undesirable handling tendencies and that from a perfect performance point of view it would be absolutely the best for the engine to be mounted square on to the airflow but wouldn't the overall effect of the thrust vector being offset completely outweigh these minor undesirable tendencies and make life easier for the pilot? My instinct tells me that the unwanted effects would be relatively insignificant but I genuinely don't know....! I've always considered that aircraft compromised by simplicity would in the ideal world be set up to fly perfectly straight and balanced with hands and feet off in the cruise as that's what we spend most of the time doing. Thus in a perfect aircraft with the engine correctly offset this should be achieved without any extra trim tabs, assuming the designer got his sums correct with the offset! (I'm lucky I think because my aircraft seems to achieve this quite nicely!). I also note that you believe a rudder trim tab to be a better solution than an engine offset. Do you consider that having the rudder permanently offset into the airflow to keep the aircraft balanced to be more efficient than the minor unwanted propeller blade effects caused by having an engine offset? Again I'm only asking the question because I genuinely don't know..! I believe that a correctly offset engine will assist the pilot during take off by reducing the amount of right rudder deflection required throughout. Without any offset to help, surely more right rudder deflection would be needed to keep straight thus effectively reducing the maximum crosswind component from the left that the aircraft itself could cope with? A rudder trim would not help this situation of course - it might make reduce the load on the pilot's leg but the actual rudder deflection is still required. As I say, an interesting post, I'm very open minded but am yet to be convinced that I have made a mistake by following the manual and building mine WITH the quoted 1.5 degree offset....! -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465129#465129 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:54 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 1.5 degrees right? From: "JonSmith" NIGEL - Doh - I'm very sorry to get your name the wrong way round in my post above. I woke up early and it was still far too early when I wrote it.....! That plus old age! Cheers, Jon -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465130#465130 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:02 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: 1.5 degrees =?UTF-8?Q?right=3F? Nigel, following on from this, I am most reluctant to believe that Ivan Shaw and Don Dykins (one of the outstanding aerodynamicists of our time!) got it wrong, or for that matter generations of designers of Spitfire/Hurricane era aircraft - which I believe al had engine offset and fin offset incorporated, but even so were close to unmanageable if full power was used on take off. Performance then was very much a matter of life and death and an immense amount of research went into optimising performance - I certainly don't buy the notion that folk have always done it because someone did it back in the dark ages and no-one has thought rationally about it since! Offsetting the engine 1.5 degrees makes negligible difference to forward thrust - actually reduces it by just 0.03%, but using permanent right rudder induces extra drag which must be an appreciably greater amount. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2017-01-16 09:58, JonSmith wrote: > > Hi Graham, I found your posting most interesting and thought provoking. You go beyond my old "pilot book"! We are all familiar to a certain extent with the old classic theories of propeller effects; torque, asymmetric blade, gyroscopic etc but I'd never considered detrimental effects caused by an engine offset. > > I remember quite well the famous diagram of the propeller slipstream helix spiralling around the fuselage and whacking the fin on one side or the other depending on direction of engine rotation - in our Rotax-Europa case the left side of the fin causing the nose to yaw more and more to the left with increasing power. Certainly in my aircraft on the rare perfectly calm and smooth day with no other influencing factors I notice on take off that at the point of lift off a considerable amount of right rudder input is required at that point, nearly half I'd say. > > I suppose that aircraft design is always a compromise and there are various solutions to counter this problem, engine offsets, rudder trims (fixed and inflight adjustable), offset fins etc, all designed to help make life easier for the poor pilot who has to cope with the cacophony of forces his machine is constantly bombarded with! Our Europa is as basic as you can get in it's standard form with the options of an offset engine mounting and/ or fixed rudder trim tab or nothing! > > I note and accept what you say about an engine offset causing inefficiencies and undesirable handling tendencies and that from a perfect performance point of view it would be absolutely the best for the engine to be mounted square on to the airflow but wouldn't the overall effect of the thrust vector being offset completely outweigh these minor undesirable tendencies and make life easier for the pilot? My instinct tells me that the unwanted effects would be relatively insignificant but I genuinely don't know....! > > I've always considered that aircraft compromised by simplicity would in the ideal world be set up to fly perfectly straight and balanced with hands and feet off in the cruise as that's what we spend most of the time doing. Thus in a perfect aircraft with the engine correctly offset this should be achieved without any extra trim tabs, assuming the designer got his sums correct with the offset! (I'm lucky I think because my aircraft seems to achieve this quite nicely!). I also note that you believe a rudder trim tab to be a better solution than an engine offset. Do you consider that having the rudder permanently offset into the airflow to keep the aircraft balanced to be more efficient than the minor unwanted propeller blade effects caused by having an engine offset? Again I'm only asking the question because I genuinely don't know..! > > I believe that a correctly offset engine will assist the pilot during take off by reducing the amount of right rudder deflection required throughout. Without any offset to help, surely more right rudder deflection would be needed to keep straight thus effectively reducing the maximum crosswind component from the left that the aircraft itself could cope with? A rudder trim would not help this situation of course - it might make reduce the load on the pilot's leg but the actual rudder deflection is still required. > > As I say, an interesting post, I'm very open minded but am yet to be convinced that I have made a mistake by following the manual and building mine WITH the quoted 1.5 degree offset....! > > -------- > G-TERN > Classic Mono > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465129#465129 [1] > Links: ------ [1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465129#465129 [2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [3] http://forums.matronics.com [4] http://wiki.matronics.com [5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:17 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: EUROPA XS GAS STRUTS From: "John Wighton" Try sales@igsltd.co.uk they are quick and efficient- and know the right pressure. 165N (yes, that is not a pressure) appears correct for the Europa. They charged 32.00 all in, 50% of which is postage. Also try Karen at Europa if you wish to go OE route. Regards JW -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465132#465132 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:12 AM PST US From: "Bob Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right? Hi! Pete and in response to all .....and when all is done and said don=99t forget to allow for =9Cprop-wash=9D when doing all your theorising . The mono would be uncontrolled in a =9Cfull chat=9D turbo wide open takeoff situation with my CS Woodcomp selected in =9Ctake off=9D .Even in trike configuration it requires full Rudder to remain straight ahead. Then add a considerable cross wind and you are set for a ground loop immediately the rear wheel brakes clear of the runway. Without differential braking the Fin and rudder don=99t have adequate authority .......IMHO ! Having said that I have landed at Marehamn against a 35 Knot wind from the Port side with rotor effect from trees 200 yards to the port side. Thank the lord for trike differential braking in that event. Regards to all Bob Harrison G-PTAG. From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Jeffers Sent: 16 January 2017 09:34 Subject: RE: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right? Hi all, Just for the record. In the early pre history build of the classic Europa the instructions said that the correct setup for the engine would be achieved if the 'washers' were adjusted such that the spinner lined up with the cowling. That supposedly gave us the 1.5 degree right offset. Nothing further was said on this issue. My only comment is that it was a bit crude but seemed to work. A word of advice for Bob is that if you change your current setup for the engine mount then your spinner will not line up with your cowling. It is possible to address this misalignment but not simple. Pete J From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: 15 January 2017 23:07 Subject: Re: Europa-List: 1.5 degrees right? Nigel, Thanks for the detailed description. I have often wondered about the effectiveness of the offset. It just didn=99t seem right to me. At some point in the future I=99ll have to unbolt the engine for something. When I do, I=99ll remove the offset and see what difference it makes. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jan 15, 2017, at 4:08 PM, nigel_graham@m-tecque.co.uk wrote: Jonathan, I think you have provided the answer to your own question. The fact that you have run your Classic with no engine offset and noticed no asymmetric flying characteristics speaks volumes. The whole idea of canting an engine sideways and forcing the propeller disc through the air at anything other than normal to the oncoming airstream is daft. The theory that canting the engine sideways will counter the yaw effect of the prop wash seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what is really happening and it=99s done because =9Cthat=99s how it=99s always been done=9D! On your Classic, you sensibly mounted your engine head on to the wind and you set you propeller blades pitch to the recommended angle. Each time the blades rotate their angles of attack remain equal to each other and constant to the oncoming wind and each blade generates the same thrust throughout each revolution of the prop. Now consider what happens when you follow the XS build instructions and cant the engine 1.5 degrees to the right. If you=99re flying straight-and-level behind a right-hand tractor (Rotax 912, 914), each time a blade passes over the top of the ark, its pitch is effectively reduced by 1.5 degrees and as it swings through the bottom of the ark, its effective pitch is increased by 1.5 degrees. This means that your propeller is producing significantly more thrust from the bottom half of the propeller disc than the top half =93 and that produces a pitch up change in attitude =93 and not the sideways thrust you had hoped to achieve by mounting the engine sideways. =9CSo if that=99s true, why has nobody noticed this pitch up attitude?=9D =93 a good question (even though I asked it myself). All Europa=99s are fitted with a pitch trimmer =93 so these effects are unconsciously trimmed out by the pilot during different phases of flight. =9CAh, but what about the propensity to swing to the left on take-off?=9D - Same thing, different plane. The Monowheel sits on the ground at a deck angle of (is it about 12 degrees? I forget) so the engine is now canted up at the front by this amount. At the beginning of the take-off run, the upcoming blade on the left hand side has 12 degrees wound off its effective pitch, while the down going blade on the right has 12 degrees added to its pitch. This produces significantly more thrust on the right hand side of the disc than the left, resulting in a turning moment to the left. It's a potential problem with all tail-draggers The Tri-Gear variant of course sits horizontally on the ground, so has none of this asymmetric thrust =93 so is less prone to dive off to the left on take off; another reason why the Tri-Gear is perceived to be more benign than the Mono. Canting an engine is a very crude way of addressing a relatively transient problem =93 Fitting a rudder trimmer would be a far more elegant solution =93 should it be necessary. Hope that wasn=99t too long winded! Nigel PS the roll issue has nothing to do with engine position. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 01/15/17 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 01/16/17 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:36 AM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: 1.5 degrees right? VG8gQWxsLA0KQW4gYWlycGxhbmUgaXMgMjAsMDAwIGNvbXByb21pc2VzIGZseWluZyBpbiBjbG9z ZSBmb3JtYXRpb24uICBFYWNoIGNoYW5nZSB3ZSBtYWtlIGFmZmVjdHMgb3RoZXJzLCBhbmQgc29t ZSBhcmUgbmVjZXNzYXJ5IHRvIGZpbmUgdHVuZSB0aGUgYWlyY3JhZnQgZm9yIG5vcm1hbCBvcGVy YXRpb25zLg0KDQpPZmYgdGhlIHZlcnkgZW1wdHkgdG9wIG9mIG15IGhlYWQ6DQpGcm9tIGFuIGFl cm8gc3RhbmRwb2ludCwgZnVzZWxhZ2Ugc3F1YXJlbmVzcywgdGFpbCBzcXVhcmVuZXNzLCB3aW5n IGluY2lkZW5jZSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlcyBpbiBjb25zdHJ1Y3Rpb24sIGV0Yy4gY2F1c2UgbW9zdCBv ZiBvdXIgdHJpbSBwcm9ibGVtcyBhdCBjcnVpc2UgaW4gdGhlIEV1cm9wYS4NCkFzIGZvciBydWRk ZXIvZmluIG9mZnNldCB2cy4gZW5naW5lIG9mZnNldCB0byBjb3JyZWN0IGZvciBQIGZhY3Rvciwg ZHJhZyBkdWUgdG8gdGFpbCBhcmVhIGZvciBhbiBvZmZzZXQgdG8gY291bnRlcmFjdCB0aGUgc2xp cHN0cmVhbSBhbmQgUCBmYWN0b3IgYWZmZWN0IGlzIHNtYWxsIGF0IGNydWlzZSBmb3IgZWFjaC4g IEhvd2V2ZXIsIGluIGEgZnVsbCBwb3dlciA5MTQgd2l0aCBBaXJtYXN0ZXIgb24gdGFrZW9mZiBh bmQgY2xpbWIgb3V0LCB0aGUgcnVkZGVyIHJlcXVpcmVkIHRvICBob2xkIHlhdyBpbiBjaGVjayBp cyByZWR1Y2VkIHdpdGggb2Zmc2V0LiAgSW50ZXJlc3RpbmcgdG8gbm90ZSBpcyBpbiBwcm9wZWxs ZXIgdGVzdGluZywgaWYgeW91IHRyaW0gYSBwbGFuZSBmb3IgcGVyZmVjdCBiYWxsIHdpdGggYSBm aXhlZCBwaXRjaCwgdGhlbiBwdXQgb24gYSBjb25zdGFudCBzcGVlZCwgYSB0b3VjaCBtb3JlIHJp Z2h0IHJ1ZGRlciBpcyByZXF1aXJlZCB0byBob2xkIHRoZSB3aW5ncyBsZXZlbCBhbmQgdGhlIGJh bGwgc29saWRseSBpbiB0aGUgY2VudGVyLiAgUmVkdWNlIHBvd2VyIG9uIHRoZSBDb25zdGFudCBT cGVlZCBwcm9wIGFuZCBzdWRkZW5seSBsZWZ0IHJ1ZGRlciBpcyBuZWVkZWQuICBJIHByZWZlciBl bmdpbmUgb2Zmc2V0IG15c2VsZiBhcyB0aGUgb2Zmc2V0IGlzIHJlYWxseSBzbWFsbCAoYSBkZWdy ZWUgb3Igc28pIHRvIGFjY29tbW9kYXRlIFAgZmFjdG9yIGFuZCBzbGlwc3RyZWFtIHlhdy4gIE9m ZnNldHRpbmcgdGhlIHJ1ZGRlci9maW4gb24gYSBzaG9ydCBmdXNlbGFnZSBhbmQgaW5kdWNlZCBk cmFnIGJlY29tZXMgYSBmYWN0b3IuICBBIG9uZSBkZWdyZWUgb2Zmc2V0IG9mIHRoZSBydWRkZXIg aXMgLjAxIENkIHdoaWNoIGlzIG5vdCBtdWNoIGRyYWcgb3IgYWJvdXQgNSBwb3VuZHMgcGVyIGRl Z3JlZSBvbiBhIDE1IHNxIGZ0IGZpbi9ydWRkZXIsIGJ1dCBpdCBpcyBkcmFnLCB3aGVyZWFzIHBy b3Agb2Zmc2V0IGRyYWcgaXMgbmlsbCBhbmQgdGhlIGxvc3Mgb2YgdGhydXN0IGlzIG5pbGwgYWxz byBhdCBzdWNoIGxvdyBhbmdsZXMuICBJIGFncmVlIHdpdGggdGhlIEV1cm9wYSBkZXNpZ25lcnMs IGFzIGRvZXMgRGF2aWQgYW5kIG90aGVycywgZHJhZyBpcyBkcmFnLiAgT24gQ2xhc3NpY3MgaW4g bXkgc2hvcCwgdGhlIG9mZnNldCBvbiBhbiA4MEhQIGZhdCBub3NlZCBDbGFzc2ljIHdhcyB2ZXJ5 IGxpdHRsZS4gIExldOKAmXMgZmFjZSBpdCwgdGhlIGluc3RydWN0aW9ucyBzYWlkIGFsaWduIHRo ZSBlbmdpbmUgd2l0aCB0aGUgY293bC4gIElmIHlvdSBjdXQgdGhlIGNvd2wsIHdobyBrbm93cyB3 aGF0IHlvdSBoYXZlIHdpdGhvdXQgbWVhc3VyaW5nLiAgQnV0IG9uIHRoZSBDbGFzc2ljLCB0aGF0 IHdhcyBub3QgbWVudGlvbmVkLiAgT2ggd2VsbCwgcHJvZ3Jlc3Mgd2FzIG1hZGUgd2l0aCB0aGUg WFMuDQoNClRoZSBsaWdodCBwcm9wZWxsZXIgYWlyY3JhZnQgaXMgdHJpbW1lZCBmb3Igb25lIGFp cnNwZWVkIGFuZCBwb3dlciBzZXR0aW5nLiAgQ2hhbmdlIHNwZWVkLCB3ZWlnaHQgKGFuZ2xlIG9m IGF0dGFjayksIHByb3BlbGxlciBsZW5ndGggb3IgcGl0Y2gsIG9yIHBvd2VyIHNldHRpbmcgYW5k IHRoZSB0cmltIGluIHBpdGNoIGFuZCByb2xsIGR1ZSB0byB5YXcgY2hhbmdlcy4gIFNpbmNlIHRo ZSBmdXNlbGFnZSBsb25naXR1ZGluYWwgYXhpcyBhbmQgZW5naW5lIGFyZSBhdCB0aGUgc2FtZSBw aXRjaCBzZXR0aW5nLCB0aGUgc21hbGwgeWF3IG9mZnNldCBvZiB0aGUgZW5naW5lIGlzIG5vdCBn b2luZyB0byBiZSBtdWNoLCBub3IgaXMgYSB5YXcgZHVlIHRvIGZpbiB0cmltLiAgTm9ybWFsbHks IHRoZSAxIGFuZCAxLzE2IGluY2ggb2Zmc2V0IGlzIGZpbmUgYW5kIGlmIG5vdCwgSSBkZWNyZWFz ZSB0aGUgbGVuZ3RoIG9mIHRoZSByaWdodC9sZWZ0IHJ1ZGRlciBjYWJsZSBhYm91dCDCvSBpbmNo IHRvIHNwcmluZyB0aGUgcnVkZGVyIG92ZXIgYSBiaXQgb24gc29tZSBhaXJjcmFmdCB0byB0cmlt IHRoZSBiYWxsLiAgSG93ZXZlciwgZm9yIGFueSByb2xsIGFuZCB5YXcgY29tYmluZWQgcHJvYmxl bSwgSSB3b3VsZCBsb29rIGF0IGEgZHJvb3B5IGZsYXAuICBTb21laG93IGZsYXBzIHNvbWV0aW1l cyBnZXQgbGVhbmVkIG9uIGFuZCBqdXN0IGEgMS8xNiBvZiBhbiBpbmNoIGZsYXAgZHJvb3AgaXMg cXVpdGUgYSBiaXQgb2Ygcm9sbCBhbmQgeWF3LiAgV2hlcmVhcyBjaGFuZ2luZyB0aGUgZW5naW5l IG9mZnNldCB3aWxsIGJlIHZlcnkgbGl0dGxlIHlhdyAoYW5kIHNtYWxsIHJvbGwpLg0KDQpGbHkg dGhlIHBsYW5lIGFuZCBjZW50ZXIgdGhlIGJhbGwuICBJZiBpdCBpcyBzdGlsbCByb2xsaW5nIGl0 IGlzIG1vc3QgbGlrZWx5IHlvdXIgd2luZyB0cmltLiAgRWl0aGVyIGEgZmxhcCBpcyBkcm9vcGlu Zywgb3Igc29tZWhvdyBzcHJpbmcgaGFzIGJlZW4gYnVpbHQgaW50byB5b3VyIGFpbGVyb25zLiAg KFNwcmluZyBpbiB0aGUgYWlsZXJvbnMgaXMgc2VlbiB3aGVuIHRoZSBzdGljayBkb2VzIG5vdCBz dGF5IGV4YWN0bHkgd2hlcmUgaXQgaXMgcHV0IG9uIHRoZSBncm91bmQuICBTb21lIGJ1aWxkZXJz IGJ1aWxkIGluIHByb2JsZW1zIHRoYXQgY2F1c2UgdGhlIGFpbGVyb24gdG8gc3ByaW5nIG9uZSBk aXJlY3Rpb24gb3IgdGhlIG90aGVyLikgIEFsc28gbG9vayBhdCB5b3VyIHdpbmcgZHJhZyBjb3Zl cnMsIGFuZCBwYW50cyBvbiBhIFRyaWdlYXIgZm9yIGFsaWdubWVudC4gIEEgZHJvb3B5IHdoZWVs IHBhbnQgZHVlIHRvIHJvdWdoIGZpZWxkIG9wZXJhdGlvbnMgaXMgcXVpdGUgYSBiaXQgb2YgZHJh ZyBhcyBhcmUgdGhlIHdpbmcgZmxhcCBicmFja2V0IGNvdmVycyBpZiBtaXNhbGlnbmVkLg0KDQpX aGVuIHRoZSBiYWxsIGNhbiBiZSBjZW50ZXJlZCBhbmQgYWxsIHJvbGwgc3RvcHMgKHBhdCB5b3Vy c2VsZiBvbiB0aGUgYmFjayBmb3Igd2VsbCB0cmltbWVkIHdpbmdzKSB5b3VyIHByb2JsZW0gaXMg bW9zdCBsaWtlbHkgUCBmYWN0b3IuICBTaG9ydGVuIHRoZSBjYWJsZSBvbiB0aGUgc2lkZSBvZiB0 aGUgcnVkZGVyIGlzIGRlcHJlc3NlZCB3aWxsIG5vcm1hbGx5IGZpeCBpdC4gIElmIHRoYXQgaXMg bm90IGVub3VnaCwgdGhlbiBhIHRhYiAob3Igc3Ryb25nZXIgc3ByaW5nKSBpcyBuZWNlc3Nhcnkg b24gdGhhdCBzaWRlLiAgS2VlcGluZyBhIHBsYW5lIHdlbGwgdHJpbW1lZCBvdXQgaXMgYSBjb25z dGFudCBwcm9ibGVtLiAgRXZlcnkgNSB5ZWFycywgbG9vayBoYXJkIGF0IHRoZSBwbGFuZSBhcyBk dWUgdG8gd2VhciBhbmQgdGVhciwgdGhpbmdzIGdldCBvdXQgb2YgYWxpZ25tZW50LiAgQW55IGNo YW5nZSBmcm9tIHlvdXIgb3JpZ2luYWwgZmx5IG9mZiB0cmltIHNldHRpbmdzIG11c3QgYmUgaW52 ZXN0aWdhdGVkLCBhcyBzb21ldGhpbmcgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQuDQoNCkp1c3QgbXkgdGhvdWdodHMu DQoNCkJ1ZCBZZXJseQ0KSeKAmW0gcHVsbGluZyBpbiAxMkFZIHNvb24gZm9yIFN1biBuIEZ1biBw cmVwLiAgSm9pbiB1cyB0aGlzIHllYXIgaW4gTGFrZWxhbmQgYW5kIG1lZXQgdXAgd2l0aCBDbHVi IG1lbWJlcnMgYW5kIEV1cm9wYWZpbGVzIGFsaWtlIGF0IHNpdGUgTi01NSBhZ2FpbiB0aGlzIHll YXIgYW5kIGdldCBhd2F5IGZyb20gdGhlIHdpbnRlciBkb2xkcnVtcy4gIE91ciBkaXNwbGF5IGVt cGhhc2lzIHRoaXMgeWVhciB3aWxsIGJlIG9uIHRoZSBBaXJtYXN0ZXIgcHJvcGVsbGVyIHdoaWNo IHdhcyBhIGdhbWUgY2hhbmdlciBmb3IgdHJhbnNmb3JtaW5nIHRoZSBFdXJvcGEgYW5kIG1hbnkg b3RoZXIgYWlyY3JhZnQgaW50byBlZmZpY2llbnQgY3J1aXNpbmcgYWlycGxhbmVzLg0KDQpGcm9t OiBvd25lci1ldXJvcGEtbGlzdC1zZXJ2ZXJAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbSBbbWFpbHRvOm93bmVyLWV1 cm9wYS1saXN0LXNlcnZlckBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgZGF2aWRqb3ljZUBk b2N0b3JzLm9yZy51aw0KU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBKYW51YXJ5IDE2LCAyMDE3IDU6NDIgQU0NClRv OiBldXJvcGEtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogRXVyb3BhLUxpc3Q6IFJl OiAxLjUgZGVncmVlcyByaWdodD8NCg0KDQpOaWdlbCwgZm9sbG93aW5nIG9uIGZyb20gdGhpcywg SSBhbSBtb3N0IHJlbHVjdGFudCB0byBiZWxpZXZlIHRoYXQgSXZhbiBTaGF3IGFuZCBEb24gRHlr aW5zIChvbmUgb2YgdGhlIG91dHN0YW5kaW5nIGFlcm9keW5hbWljaXN0cyBvZiBvdXIgdGltZSEp IGdvdCBpdCB3cm9uZywgb3IgZm9yIHRoYXQgbWF0dGVyIGdlbmVyYXRpb25zIG9mIGRlc2lnbmVy cyBvZiBTcGl0ZmlyZS9IdXJyaWNhbmUgZXJhIGFpcmNyYWZ0IC0gd2hpY2ggSSBiZWxpZXZlIGFs IGhhZCBlbmdpbmUgb2Zmc2V0IGFuZCAgZmluIG9mZnNldCBpbmNvcnBvcmF0ZWQsIGJ1dCBldmVu IHNvIHdlcmUgY2xvc2UgdG8gdW5tYW5hZ2VhYmxlIGlmIGZ1bGwgcG93ZXIgd2FzIHVzZWQgb24g dGFrZSBvZmYuIFBlcmZvcm1hbmNlIHRoZW4gd2FzIHZlcnkgbXVjaCBhIG1hdHRlciBvZiBsaWZl IGFuZCBkZWF0aCBhbmQgYW4gaW1tZW5zZSBhbW91bnQgb2YgcmVzZWFyY2ggd2VudCBpbnRvIG9w dGltaXNpbmcgcGVyZm9ybWFuY2UgLSBJIGNlcnRhaW5seSBkb24ndCBidXkgdGhlIG5vdGlvbiB0 aGF0IGZvbGsgaGF2ZSBhbHdheXMgZG9uZSBpdCBiZWNhdXNlICBzb21lb25lIGRpZCBpdCBiYWNr IGluIHRoZSBkYXJrIGFnZXMgYW5kIG5vLW9uZSBoYXMgdGhvdWdodCByYXRpb25hbGx5IGFib3V0 IGl0IHNpbmNlIQ0KDQogICAgT2Zmc2V0dGluZyB0aGUgZW5naW5lIDEuNSBkZWdyZWVzIG1ha2Vz IG5lZ2xpZ2libGUgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSB0byBmb3J3YXJkIHRocnVzdCAtIGFjdHVhbGx5IHJlZHVj ZXMgaXQgYnkganVzdCAwLjAzJSwgYnV0IHVzaW5nIHBlcm1hbmVudCByaWdodCBydWRkZXIgaW5k dWNlcyBleHRyYSBkcmFnIHdoaWNoIG11c3QgYmUgIGFuIGFwcHJlY2lhYmx5IGdyZWF0ZXIgYW1v dW50Lg0KDQogICAgUmVnYXJkcywgRGF2aWQgSm95Y2UsIEdYU0RKDQoNCg0KDQoNCk9uIDIwMTct MDEtMTYgMDk6NTgsIEpvblNtaXRoIHdyb3RlOg0KDQotLT4gRXVyb3BhLUxpc3QgbWVzc2FnZSBw b3N0ZWQgYnk6ICJKb25TbWl0aCIgPGpvbnNtaXRoZXVyb3BhQHRpc2NhbGkuY28udWs8bWFpbHRv OmpvbnNtaXRoZXVyb3BhQHRpc2NhbGkuY28udWs+Pg0KDQoNCg0KSGkgR3JhaGFtLCBJIGZvdW5k IHlvdXIgcG9zdGluZyBtb3N0IGludGVyZXN0aW5nIGFuZCB0aG91Z2h0IHByb3Zva2luZy4gIFlv dSBnbyBiZXlvbmQgbXkgb2xkICJwaWxvdCBib29rIiEgICBXZSBhcmUgYWxsIGZhbWlsaWFyIHRv IGEgY2VydGFpbiBleHRlbnQgd2l0aCB0aGUgb2xkIGNsYXNzaWMgdGhlb3JpZXMgb2YgcHJvcGVs bGVyIGVmZmVjdHM7IHRvcnF1ZSwgYXN5bW1ldHJpYyBibGFkZSwgZ3lyb3Njb3BpYyBldGMgYnV0 IEknZCBuZXZlciBjb25zaWRlcmVkIGRldHJpbWVudGFsIGVmZmVjdHMgY2F1c2VkIGJ5IGFuIGVu Z2luZSBvZmZzZXQuDQoNCg0KDQpJIHJlbWVtYmVyIHF1aXRlIHdlbGwgdGhlIGZhbW91cyBkaWFn cmFtIG9mIHRoZSBwcm9wZWxsZXIgc2xpcHN0cmVhbSBoZWxpeCBzcGlyYWxsaW5nIGFyb3VuZCB0 aGUgZnVzZWxhZ2UgYW5kIHdoYWNraW5nIHRoZSBmaW4gb24gb25lIHNpZGUgb3IgdGhlIG90aGVy IGRlcGVuZGluZyBvbiBkaXJlY3Rpb24gb2YgZW5naW5lIHJvdGF0aW9uIC0gaW4gb3VyIFJvdGF4 LUV1cm9wYSBjYXNlIHRoZSBsZWZ0IHNpZGUgb2YgdGhlIGZpbiBjYXVzaW5nIHRoZSBub3NlIHRv IHlhdyBtb3JlIGFuZCBtb3JlIHRvIHRoZSBsZWZ0IHdpdGggaW5jcmVhc2luZyBwb3dlci4gIENl cnRhaW5seSBpbiBteSBhaXJjcmFmdCBvbiB0aGUgcmFyZSBwZXJmZWN0bHkgY2FsbSBhbmQgc21v b3RoIGRheSB3aXRoIG5vIG90aGVyIGluZmx1ZW5jaW5nIGZhY3RvcnMgSSBub3RpY2Ugb24gdGFr ZSBvZmYgdGhhdCBhdCB0aGUgcG9pbnQgb2YgbGlmdCBvZmYgYSBjb25zaWRlcmFibGUgYW1vdW50 IG9mIHJpZ2h0IHJ1ZGRlciBpbnB1dCBpcyByZXF1aXJlZCBhdCB0aGF0IHBvaW50LCBuZWFybHkg aGFsZiBJJ2Qgc2F5Lg0KDQoNCg0KSSBzdXBwb3NlIHRoYXQgYWlyY3JhZnQgZGVzaWduIGlzIGFs d2F5cyBhIGNvbXByb21pc2UgYW5kIHRoZXJlIGFyZSB2YXJpb3VzIHNvbHV0aW9ucyB0byBjb3Vu dGVyIHRoaXMgcHJvYmxlbSwgZW5naW5lIG9mZnNldHMsIHJ1ZGRlciB0cmltcyAoZml4ZWQgYW5k IGluZmxpZ2h0IGFkanVzdGFibGUpLCBvZmZzZXQgZmlucyBldGMsIGFsbCBkZXNpZ25lZCB0byBo ZWxwIG1ha2UgbGlmZSBlYXNpZXIgZm9yIHRoZSBwb29yIHBpbG90IHdobyBoYXMgdG8gY29wZSB3 aXRoIHRoZSBjYWNvcGhvbnkgb2YgZm9yY2VzIGhpcyBtYWNoaW5lIGlzIGNvbnN0YW50bHkgYm9t YmFyZGVkIHdpdGghICBPdXIgRXVyb3BhIGlzIGFzIGJhc2ljIGFzIHlvdSBjYW4gZ2V0IGluIGl0 J3Mgc3RhbmRhcmQgZm9ybSB3aXRoIHRoZSBvcHRpb25zIG9mIGFuIG9mZnNldCBlbmdpbmUgbW91 bnRpbmcgYW5kLyBvciBmaXhlZCBydWRkZXIgdHJpbSB0YWIgb3Igbm90aGluZyENCg0KDQoNCkkg bm90ZSBhbmQgYWNjZXB0IHdoYXQgeW91IHNheSBhYm91dCBhbiBlbmdpbmUgb2Zmc2V0IGNhdXNp bmcgaW5lZmZpY2llbmNpZXMgYW5kIHVuZGVzaXJhYmxlIGhhbmRsaW5nIHRlbmRlbmNpZXMgYW5k IHRoYXQgZnJvbSBhIHBlcmZlY3QgcGVyZm9ybWFuY2UgcG9pbnQgb2YgdmlldyBpdCB3b3VsZCBi ZSBhYnNvbHV0ZWx5IHRoZSBiZXN0IGZvciB0aGUgZW5naW5lIHRvIGJlIG1vdW50ZWQgc3F1YXJl IG9uIHRvIHRoZSBhaXJmbG93IGJ1dCB3b3VsZG4ndCB0aGUgb3ZlcmFsbCBlZmZlY3Qgb2YgdGhl IHRocnVzdCB2ZWN0b3IgYmVpbmcgb2Zmc2V0IGNvbXBsZXRlbHkgb3V0d2VpZ2ggdGhlc2UgbWlu b3IgdW5kZXNpcmFibGUgdGVuZGVuY2llcyBhbmQgbWFrZSBsaWZlIGVhc2llciBmb3IgdGhlIHBp bG90PyAgTXkgaW5zdGluY3QgdGVsbHMgbWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgdW53YW50ZWQgZWZmZWN0cyB3b3Vs ZCBiZSByZWxhdGl2ZWx5IGluc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgYnV0IEkgZ2VudWluZWx5IGRvbid0IGtub3cu Li4uIQ0KDQoNCg0KSSd2ZSBhbHdheXMgY29uc2lkZXJlZCB0aGF0IGFpcmNyYWZ0IGNvbXByb21p c2VkIGJ5IHNpbXBsaWNpdHkgd291bGQgaW4gdGhlIGlkZWFsIHdvcmxkIGJlIHNldCB1cCB0byBm bHkgcGVyZmVjdGx5IHN0cmFpZ2h0IGFuZCBiYWxhbmNlZCB3aXRoIGhhbmRzIGFuZCBmZWV0IG9m ZiBpbiB0aGUgY3J1aXNlIGFzIHRoYXQncyB3aGF0IHdlIHNwZW5kIG1vc3Qgb2YgdGhlIHRpbWUg ZG9pbmcuICBUaHVzIGluIGEgcGVyZmVjdCBhaXJjcmFmdCB3aXRoIHRoZSBlbmdpbmUgY29ycmVj dGx5IG9mZnNldCB0aGlzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBhY2hpZXZlZCB3aXRob3V0IGFueSBleHRyYSB0cmlt IHRhYnMsIGFzc3VtaW5nIHRoZSBkZXNpZ25lciBnb3QgaGlzIHN1bXMgY29ycmVjdCB3aXRoIHRo ZSBvZmZzZXQhICAoSSdtIGx1Y2t5IEkgdGhpbmsgYmVjYXVzZSBteSBhaXJjcmFmdCBzZWVtcyB0 byBhY2hpZXZlIHRoaXMgcXVpdGUgbmljZWx5ISkuICBJIGFsc28gbm90ZSB0aGF0IHlvdSBiZWxp ZXZlIGEgcnVkZGVyIHRyaW0gdGFiIHRvIGJlIGEgYmV0dGVyIHNvbHV0aW9uIHRoYW4gYW4gZW5n aW5lIG9mZnNldC4gIERvIHlvdSBjb25zaWRlciB0aGF0IGhhdmluZyB0aGUgcnVkZGVyIHBlcm1h bmVudGx5IG9mZnNldCBpbnRvIHRoZSBhaXJmbG93IHRvIGtlZXAgdGhlIGFpcmNyYWZ0IGJhbGFu Y2VkIHRvIGJlIG1vcmUgZWZmaWNpZW50IHRoYW4gdGhlIG1pbm9yIHVud2FudGVkIHByb3BlbGxl ciBibGFkZSBlZmZlY3RzIGNhdXNlZCBieSBoYXZpbmcgYW4gZW5naW5lIG9mZnNldD8gIEFnYWlu IEknbSBvbmx5IGFza2luZyB0aGUgcXVlc3Rpb24gYmVjYXVzZSBJIGdlbnVpbmVseSBkb24ndCBr bm93Li4hDQoNCg0KDQpJIGJlbGlldmUgdGhhdCBhIGNvcnJlY3RseSBvZmZzZXQgZW5naW5lIHdp bGwgYXNzaXN0IHRoZSBwaWxvdCBkdXJpbmcgdGFrZSBvZmYgYnkgcmVkdWNpbmcgdGhlIGFtb3Vu dCBvZiByaWdodCBydWRkZXIgZGVmbGVjdGlvbiByZXF1aXJlZCB0aHJvdWdob3V0LiAgV2l0aG91 dCBhbnkgb2Zmc2V0IHRvIGhlbHAsIHN1cmVseSBtb3JlIHJpZ2h0IHJ1ZGRlciBkZWZsZWN0aW9u IHdvdWxkIGJlIG5lZWRlZCB0byBrZWVwIHN0cmFpZ2h0IHRodXMgZWZmZWN0aXZlbHkgcmVkdWNp bmcgdGhlIG1heGltdW0gY3Jvc3N3aW5kIGNvbXBvbmVudCBmcm9tIHRoZSBsZWZ0IHRoYXQgdGhl IGFpcmNyYWZ0IGl0c2VsZiBjb3VsZCBjb3BlIHdpdGg/ICBBIHJ1ZGRlciB0cmltIHdvdWxkIG5v dCBoZWxwIHRoaXMgc2l0dWF0aW9uIG9mIGNvdXJzZSAtIGl0IG1pZ2h0IG1ha2UgcmVkdWNlIHRo ZSBsb2FkIG9uIHRoZSBwaWxvdCdzIGxlZyBidXQgdGhlIGFjdHVhbCBydWRkZXIgZGVmbGVjdGlv biBpcyBzdGlsbCByZXF1aXJlZC4NCg0KDQoNCkFzIEkgc2F5LCBhbiBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyBwb3N0 LCBJJ20gdmVyeSBvcGVuIG1pbmRlZCBidXQgYW0geWV0IHRvIGJlIGNvbnZpbmNlZCB0aGF0IEkg aGF2ZSBtYWRlIGEgbWlzdGFrZSBieSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgdGhlIG1hbnVhbCBhbmQgYnVpbGRpbmcg bWluZSBXSVRIIHRoZSBxdW90ZWQgMS41IGRlZ3JlZSBvZmZzZXQuLi4uIQ0KDQoNCg0KLS0tLS0t LS0NCg0KRy1URVJODQoNCkNsYXNzaWMgTW9ubw0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KUmVhZCB0aGlz IHRvcGljIG9ubGluZSBoZXJlOg0KDQoNCg0KaHR0cDovL2ZvcnVtcy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL3Zp ZXd0b3BpYy5waHA/cD00NjUxMjkjNDY1MTI5DQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCnR0 cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL05hdmlnYXRvcj9FdXJvcGEtTGlzdA0KDQppY3MuY29tDQoN Ci5jb20NCg0KLm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.