---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/30/17: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:59 AM - Re: Forward white light choice UK (Remi Guerner) 2. 02:16 AM - Re: Forward white light choice UK (jonathanmilbank) 3. 05:45 AM - Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 4. 06:39 AM - Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit (h&jeuropa) 5. 06:42 AM - Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit (AirEupora) 6. 07:02 AM - Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit (Steven Pitt) 7. 08:05 AM - Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit (Raimo Toivio) 8. 08:53 AM - Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit (Martymason) 9. 05:52 PM - Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit (n7188u) 10. 07:05 PM - Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit (n7188u) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:03 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Forward white light choice UK From: "Remi Guerner" Jonathan, As most general aviation products come from the US and importing is very easy, deciding not to buy from them is a strange idea! I have installed a Kuntzleman LTR LED light (US made, sorry!) in the lower starboard air intake (which is useful for 914 installations only). I turn it on all the time from take off to landing as long as I am below about 3000 ft AGL. Cost 234 US dollars. Works fine after 3 1/2 years and 300 flying hours. No interference. Remi Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467821#467821 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p6020017a_401.jpg ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:05 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Forward white light choice UK From: "jonathanmilbank" Remi, once again I stand guilty of a lack of joined-up thinking when I started this thread. Actually what I really need is to improve conspicuity from all directions and a forward facing light isn't really necessary because I already have a strobe light in top of the fin. But it's a 20 year old low-powered Filser intended for gliders, which is how they described it. So now my objective is to find a reasonably priced modern strobe which throws out bursts of intense flashes. Thanks anyway for your advice. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467822#467822 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:21 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit Chris, Those of us who own, have built or fly Europas are quite clear that it is a brilliant aircraft with probably the sweetest in air handling characteristics of any two seat plane. Those of us who fly the mono version would not want any other type, but it is certainly not for everyone and it is most certainly not a plane to learn on, at least if that learning is going to extend to landing & T/Os. (I would say it is the perfect plane to take Young Eagles or Air Scouts for a half hour introductory flight - 99% of them will be confident, accomplished addicted pilots within 10 mins of letting them have a go!). The Europa, especially the mono version is ideal for grass strips, generally needing little more than 100 yds ground run. However the ground handling of the mono is a demanding affair. Those with glider experience and plenty of tail wheel flying mostly take to it well but the transition from a Cessna is a very different kettle of fish and many do not manage it. If you hope to train your kids to fly then you need the trigear version. This offers the same in air benefits, has simple ground handling and only suffers from being possibly 10kts slower for same power. Converting a mono to a trigear is pretty simple if done in the initial build phase. Buying an abandoned kit can be an extremely economical way of getting to own a great plane. I recently bought such a kit,some 13 yrs old in he UK(to get some major parts for a repair - the rest was sold off very cheaply to various Europa builders around the world). The original builder had had a heart attack and his widow just kept the kit in a garage. All of the composite parts were as new and the large majority of the metal parts likewise. just a few metal bits needed minor surface treatment to bring them up to standard. The resin of course was well out of date, but not a major expense to replace. Checking the completeness of the kit is not a simple matter. The number of parts runs into 4 figures, if not 5!. If the main composite components are there plus a substantial pile of metal bits, you are probably OK, especially if the person selling looks trustworthy. Any odd nuts or bolts or metal components can be sourced from Europa Aircraft (who incidentally have an on line catalogue of parts - which comes close to being a complete list, but it is so long that it would take you weeks to check off the kit against it! If you are seriously interested then it would be no bad thing to ask on the forum whether some Europa owner lives in your neck of the woods and would be prepared to come along with you to check out the kit. There are lots of great Europa pilots around in the States! Best of luck, David Joyce On 2017-03-29 22:32, n7188u wrote: > > Hello europa List members. My name is Chris Martin and new to the list (but not to homebuilt aircraft) I own a LongEZ and a Kolb Firestar II which I enjoy flying several times a week. > > I am exploring the purchase of a 2nd hand Europa XS Monowheel kit. The kit is advertised a complete with essentially no work done to it. I am thinking about flying my LEZ to go see it this weekend. > > I have always been attracted to the Europa. I fly gliders too so the prospect of at one point retrofitting glider wings is very attractive. The other plane I have been considering is the Zenith 650. > > But the first mission for this plane would be to fly with my kids on a side by side plane and possibly teach them how to fly (I am a CFI). I also want to fly from grass which I can't do in the LEZ. How good is the Europa for these roles? > > Last, if I go this weekend to see the kit, how can I check that it is complete? I read a couple of postings that indicated the factory doesn't have a list but some members of this forums do. > > Thanks for the help. > Chris Martin > Port Orange, FL USA > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467812#467812 [1] > Links: ------ [1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467812#467812 [2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [3] http://forums.matronics.com [4] http://wiki.matronics.com [5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:10 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit From: "h&jeuropa" Hi Chris, If this is the Europa on Barnstormers being sold by an EAA chapter in GA, I have talked to the chapter representative and another prospective buyer about it. Both contacted me because I am the US representative for the Europa Club. My knowledge is mostly based on the photos in Barnstormers and some history from the chapter. It is kit A291 which was one of the last sold in the US. Apparently the owner assembled some of the mechanical parts but didnt do any of the composite work. You can see the main wheel assembled in the photos. From the photos the kit appears to be pretty complete. But at the time it was sold, Europa was undergoing financial problems and some kits were missing significant parts. If you are seriously interested, you should contact Bud Yerly of Custom Flight Creations in Seffner, FL to have a look with you. Bud is the Europa expert. The kit pictured does not include the firewall forward kit. That was common practice at the time, builders would wait until they completed the fuselage, wings and tail before spending the money for the firewall forward. So you will need the forward cowl, engine mount, radiators etc. Some of these parts are available from the factory, others from builders / third party vendors. But they are all available. Likewise, the plex for the windscreen and doors for US kits was provided by LP Aero Plastics. They still show it in their catalog. The photos show a Rotax 9XX engine. The black valve covers indicate it is a 80 hp 912. The club rep says it was turbo charged and there are no carbs or inlet manifolds. I would consider this as a core at best. You should plan on purchasing an engine as well as a prop. Your intent to fly with your kids in a side by side configuration is perfect. We love our Europa monowheel and its performance. With the turbo 914, we see 150 kt cruise on 5.5 gph MOGAS at 10-12K ft. It handles beautifully and is a wonderful traveling machine. We are based on a grass strip that it does really well on, but paved runways are no problem either. The original mission for Europa was to go from England to the south of France with girl friend for the weekend with speed and economy while having the capability to trailer home and operate off farm fields in England. It does that mission well. The mono wheel ground handling is different than what most pilots are accustomed to. I would not recommend it for initial flight training. You may find that insurance is difficult to obtain. There are very few qualified flight instructors and only a couple that I am aware of that have recent time in type. It is possible to convert a mono to a tri-gear, at some weight and speed penalty. That is the configuration that is generally recommended. Its ground handling is similar to most tricycle gear aircraft. The glider wings are a nice option. There were not too many produced, around 20. The performance is similar to a 2-33 Schweitzer. Be aware there is a major mandatory spar modification required on these. You may find that purchasing a flying Europa is a less expensive proposition. The tri-gear on Barnstormers at $46,500 is quite a good value. If you purchase the kit for $10,000 add engine and prop, roughly $25,000, some avionics, $10,000, paint and interior, $8,000 you begin to see why a flying Europa may be less expensive. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. Jim Butcher Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467830#467830 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:14 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit From: "AirEupora" I've attached a spread sheet with the part numbers listed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467832#467832 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/europapart_101.xls http://forums.matronics.com//files/europa_parts1_185.xls http://forums.matronics.com//files/europa_parts_183.xls ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:40 AM PST US From: Steven Pitt Subject: Re: Europa-List: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit Chris, I would echo David's comments. As Chairman of the Europa Club I will be at SunnFun next week with Bud Yerly, who runs the US builder assistance program from Seffner, Florida, so you are very close to plenty of advise, assistance and knowledge on everything Europa. Back to David's comments on training. The trigear is ideal as a trainer, I have flown mine off grass for many years with few issues, yes it is slower but it is all relative. Come and meet with us and other Europa owners next week at Lakeland. We will be there all 6 days, meet and greet is usually around 11.00 each day but you are welcome any time. Looking forward to seeing you all from Tuesday onwards. Regards Steve G-SMDH Trigear 912S Sent from my iPad > On 30 Mar 2017, at 08:41, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote: > > experience ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit From: Raimo Toivio Chris! My comments also: if your children happen start to learn to fly Europa Monowheel first, it will be natural for them. As well as for you. For experienced Cessna pilot, any tail wheeler is difficult and Mono is almost impossible w/o a patient practise and a quolified instructor. Think about our grand fathers: they all learned to fly very sensitive tail wheelers. Was it "difficult" ? For me - a VFR pilot - flying IMC was rather difficult before a long practise. But my daughter, its natural straightforward. Thats because she got controls first time at the age 4-years old. She was too short to see out, so she learned to fly by instruments only. Now, at the age 15, she is saying why to look out, we have instruments - she is a natural IMC pilot and no matter about horizont or ground. She took of my Mono first time from the right seat at the age of 12 and last summer she landed my mono totally by herself to our grass strip. I have flown with my wife since 1997 and since 2007 with my Mono. She has flown a lot w/o a license. Until we decided she must have a real personal license. It was very easy for her. After 30 hrs with Eurostar trike in the flying school, we purchased her a tail wheeled bush plane. She was capable direct to that, because of a Mono experience. I try to say, that if you have happend to learn to cyckle a three wheeler, its quite difficult to change and learn to cykle a normal two wheeler bi-cyckle. But if you start with a bi-cyckle, like we all normally do, its natural, easy and you will never forget that skill. *** I do not know how old are your children? Anyway - beware they will be a lot older when your possible Mono is flyable (if you have to build it first)! I would like to recommend you: buy any tail wheeler and fly it with your children. Meanwhile build your Mono very quickly - transition will be then smoother. Or - whats your best very best option - buy instantly a flyable Mono and same time build your dream one! You will have at least double fun! Cheers, Raimo Toivio Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 2007 LamcoCub M SE-VAY 2004 Bravo AS202T OH-NTM 1995 Antonov AN-2 TDSRM AirCamper HA-MDO 1987 Beechcraft C45 Twin OH-BLL 1953 37500 Lempaala FINLAND p +358-3-3753 777 m +358-40-590 1450 FLYING BREWERY - only beer in the world brewed to aircraft standards by pilots to pilots and also to normal people raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.flyingbreweryfinland.fi www.rwm.fi 30.3.2017, 17:01, Steven Pitt kirjoitti: > > Chris, > I would echo David's comments. As Chairman of the Europa Club I will be at SunnFun next week with Bud Yerly, who runs the US builder assistance program from Seffner, Florida, so you are very close to plenty of advise, assistance and knowledge on everything Europa. > Back to David's comments on training. The trigear is ideal as a trainer, I have flown mine off grass for many years with few issues, yes it is slower but it is all relative. > Come and meet with us and other Europa owners next week at Lakeland. We will be there all 6 days, meet and greet is usually around 11.00 each day but you are welcome any time. > Looking forward to seeing you all from Tuesday onwards. > Regards > Steve > G-SMDH Trigear 912S > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 30 Mar 2017, at 08:41, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote: >> >> experience > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:20 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit From: "Martymason" I purchased this kit in 2004. Some of you know the problems I had due to the bankruptcy of Europa Aircraft, In fact I had to purchase the wings from Europa 2004 along with the firewall forward kit. The kit is complete and there are many extra purchases including the reinforced tailplane tube. A crushed left elbow and mangled left hand in 2007 prevented me from completing the kit. After several years I donated it to EAA chapter 690 in hopes that young people could complete it. Unfortunately they have decided to sell it along with the used Rotax 912 I also donated. You can contact me by e-mail or phone at 770-448-6469. Marty Mason Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467841#467841 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:49 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit From: "n7188u" Thanks for all the helpful replies. I already contacted Bud and will be meeting him either Friday or Saturday. I am looking forward to that meeting. I am personally not too concerned about the monowheel (being an experienced glider pilot and currently owning and flying a tailwheel airplane). But teaching the kids may be a problem. Probably OK in the initial phases but solo could take a while in coming (I'm a CFI so I can spend a lot of time teaching them :) I will consider the triwheel retrofit if I end up getting a monowheel airplane. And I will make sure I seek the Europa owners in SnF. I will be coming in my LongEZ. Hard to miss since generally there are not too many :) Regards, Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467852#467852 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:23 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit From: "n7188u" Or maybe I need to read a little more about Mono vs tri gear. After reviewing a post describing some experiences with mono wheel in crosswind maybe I need to just consider conversion from the beginning! It's just that the mono wheel is soooo cool! Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467854#467854 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.