---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/15/17: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:04 AM - Re: POH Updates (tennant) 2. 03:44 AM - Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (Richard Lamprey) 3. 04:04 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (houlihan tim) 4. 09:51 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__POH_Updates? () 5. 10:19 AM - Re: POH Updates (William McClellan) 6. 11:35 AM - Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (Robert Borger) 7. 02:27 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (William Daniell) 8. 04:15 PM - Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (GTH) 9. 07:06 PM - Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (Pete) 10. 08:03 PM - Oshkosh 2017 - almost here! (Peter Zutrauen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: POH Updates From: "tennant" Hi Mike, The owners manual is only a basis to start from, but as every aircraft is fitted out differently, you will have to complete the POH yourself. e.g. If you cannot get the information from someone else then you will have to measure the start roll distance, climb rate etc. with your engine & prop at max weight. It is great fun finding the edges of the envelope for your plane and brings confidence. Have fun Barry -------- Barry Tennant D-EHBT At EDLM - Germany Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471010#471010 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:43 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum From: "Richard Lamprey" Graeme, In regards to engines, I think it all boils down to how many headaches you want to give yourself before you actually fly your Europa. In changing from the 'normal' type of engine (Rotax 912 range) to one that has not been tested, certified in a Europa somewhere else will give you so many problems that your head will spin... engine mounts, new cowlings, cooling problems, propeller types, not to mention of the miles of paperwork for/ with your regulator. The small savings you may make on the engine cost will be gobbled up, 5 times, by all these issues above. But if you want to be part of the R&D, by all means give it a go... ! Richard Classic Monowheel, Rotax 912UL, 5Y-LRY, Kenya Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471013#471013 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:03 AM PST US From: houlihan tim Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum I concur with Richard, , a new engine installation can be done and may turn out to be an improvement , developing new ideas is essential all our installations were new once. BUT as Richard suggests it will inevitably take longer than first thought and my in the end have insurmountable problems , I know of more than one installation that could not be made to work due to torsional vibration that would possibly require a redesign of major engine components. I also know of a successful installation that is now working well but took ten years of steady development to make it work and it is still a "one off" with all that entails. Do go ahead if you want to develop this system but if you want to fly your aeroplane sooner take the easy way otherwise all the development time and money will be on your shoulders. Tim G-BZTH a simple basic Classic with a 912 ul > > On 15 July 2017 at 11:44 Richard Lamprey > wrote: > > > > > Graeme, > In regards to engines, I think it all boils down to how many headaches you > want to give yourself before you actually fly your Europa. In changing from > the 'normal' type of engine (Rotax 912 range) to one that has not been tested, > certified in a Europa somewhere else will give you so many problems that your > head will spin... engine mounts, new cowlings, cooling problems, propeller > types, not to mention of the miles of paperwork for/ with your regulator. The > small savings you may make on the engine cost will be gobbled up, 5 times, by > all these issues above. But if you want to be part of the R&D, by all means > give it a go... ! > Richard > Classic Monowheel, Rotax 912UL, 5Y-LRY, Kenya > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:48 AM PST US From: Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_POH_Updates? 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I know its not much help after the fact. This was of not much much matter to my inspectors. Much of the process is appeasing them and given that every inspector/office is notably different you just have to do what they want and not present them with things they could or want to make an issue of. After you get the Special Airworthiness Cert and Repairman Cert you will likely not have to deal with them any more. You do the flight testing and after the 40 hrs, your log book entry makes you good to go and free to fly where not otherwise prohibited. Bill McClellan -----Original Message----- >From: Mike Christine Duane >Sent: Jul 14, 2017 2:14 PM >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Europa-List: POH Updates > > >Where would one find updates for the Pilot's Operating Handbook? I have all the back issues of the Europa Aviation news and the Europa Flyer but have not seen anything. The FAA seems to want this for my inspection. >Mike Duane >Las Vegas > >Sent from my iPhone > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum From: Robert Borger Graeme, I concur with the commentary by others warning of very long term project to implement a non-supported engine. Unless the vendor has already designed and built engine mounts, cowling molds, electrical system, fuel system, cooling system and power train you will be the development and test item for him. You can buy all the necessary elements for a successful engine installation and be flying quickly or you can spend years (decades?) trying to develop them yourself. If you want to become an aeronautical engineer, go for it. If you want to build and fly your Europa, go for the Rotax or other supported engine. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jul 13, 2017, at 11:06 PM, Graeme Hart wrote: Hi All I'm starting to look at engine options for my XS Trigear. Rotax 912 ULS looks a great option (factory supported and well understood) apart from the cost. Aeromomentum claim they have a 100hp engine that is only 5 pounds heavier than a Rotax 912 ULS and lighter than a 914. Claimed TBO is 1500 hours. The conversion is based on a new Suzuki engine and has fuel injection so no carb balancing required. I understand the Europa is quite sensitive to engine weight but as there are quite a few 914 powered machines and this is lighter than a 914 then it should be OK. I'd appreciate hearing from anyone with any experience with Aeromomentum or with Europa experience with non Rotax engines. Thanks Graeme ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:56 PM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum I concurr with all comments...i looked at the subaru options but changed my mind after some very strong recommendations from the forum. On Jul 15, 2017 06:46, "Richard Lamprey" wrote: > lamprey.richard@gmail.com> > > Graeme, > In regards to engines, I think it all boils down to how many headaches you > want to give yourself before you actually fly your Europa. In changing > from the 'normal' type of engine (Rotax 912 range) to one that has not been > tested, certified in a Europa somewhere else will give you so many problems > that your head will spin... engine mounts, new cowlings, cooling problems, > propeller types, not to mention of the miles of paperwork for/ with your > regulator. The small savings you may make on the engine cost will be > gobbled up, 5 times, by all these issues above. But if you want to be part > of the R&D, by all means give it a go... ! > Richard > Classic Monowheel, Rotax 912UL, 5Y-LRY, Kenya > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471013#471013 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum From: GTH /Le 15/07/2017 20:34, Robert Borger a crit : / > /You can buy all the necessary elements for a successful engine > installation and be flying quickly or you can spend years (decades?) > trying to develop them yourself. / Hi Graeme and all, It is very difficult to develop a reliable and successful PSRU with a 4 cylinder engine. If this new engine had succeeded, no doubt they would mention it with pride. The fact that they just casually talk about it might indicate they did not spend much time designing and developing it. Be prepared to help develop the engine and its reduction unit as well. -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum From: Pete I agree that the PSRU is the biggest issue with any auto conversion due to r esonance issues, and why I would not buy a Viking, as Egenfeller is not an e ngineer and is continually developing his installations at his customer's ex pense. I still awaiting a gearbox faliure due to Viking 100% reliance on a c hopped up Mercedes rubber coupling. I chatted with the Aeromomentum folks at last years Osh, and will watch to s ee how his gearbox solution holds up over the longer term. The neatest pipedream I could figure would be add diesel to the wings in add ition to the main tank and throw in one of these .... can you say smoooooooo oth? https://www.turb.aero/ta120tp-turboprop I'll be watching closely to see how they deal with the materials science dem ands of a turbine. Their efficiency isn't bad for a TP .... using regen to h elp. Im planning on chatting with the principles of the company at Osh to see wha t their plans are. Would that be too cool though? Failing all the above, my stretch goal will be the 915is .... I wonder what k ind of performance numbers the Europa would get with this... Cheers, Pete > On Jul 15, 2017, at 7:15 PM, GTH wrote: > >> Le 15/07/2017 =C3- 20:34, Robert Borger a =C3=A9crit : >> >> You can buy all the necessary elements for a successful engine installati on and be flying quickly or you can spend years (decades?) trying to develop them yourself. > > Hi Graeme and all, > > It is very difficult to develop a reliable and successful PSRU with a 4 cy linder engine. > If this new engine had succeeded, no doubt they would mention it with prid e. The fact that they just casually talk about it might indicate they did no t spend much time designing and developing it. > Be prepared to help develop the engine and its reduction unit as well. > -- > Best regards, > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr > http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:07 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Oshkosh 2017 - almost here! From: Peter Zutrauen For the Europarites who are planning on the show, don't forget to drop by my trailer's beer/pop cooler and shaded lawnchairs at the tower gate ... just d rop me a note on the white board if I'm not around, and leave messages to ot her Europa nuts too :-) I'm hitting the road again for the show this Wed. Cheers and blue skies, Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.