Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:00 AM - Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (John Wighton)
2. 05:01 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (Pete)
3. 06:25 AM - Re: Oshkosh 2017 - almost here! (Robert Borger)
4. 06:32 AM - Re: Oshkosh 2017 - almost here! (h&jeuropa)
5. 07:15 AM - DAR requested info. (Bud Yerly)
6. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: Oshkosh 2017 - almost here! (Robert Borger)
7. 12:13 PM - Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (John Wighton)
8. 02:07 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (Pete)
9. 04:17 PM - Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (AirEupora)
10. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum (Pete)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum |
With all due respect putting a new engine into an existing airframe is the job
for a professional aerospace engineer (Co) - for a light aircraft (non-certified)
this might take 3-4 years and gobble up around 200k of funds. Success is
thereafter not guaranteed. At some point you will need to negotiate the authorities.
My experience is the lower down the food chain the local authority is the more
finickity they are. Our LAA is now hobbled with a CAA A8-26 organisation approval,
which they seem to interpret as needing to add an additional layer of conservatism
(and possibly suspicion) to everything they deal with. They are all
sterling chaps, just doing a job, but the iterative process of making MOD/design
submissions to them can try the patience - especially for those of us who
deal direct with EASA, the CAA and other organisations who hold their own DOA/POA
or hold Form 4 posts themselves.
The Europa is a brilliant aeroplane that performs fantastically well on a Rotax
912S. My advice is to bite the bullet (sign the cheque), buy the Rotax and get
into the air as soon as you can.
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471039#471039
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum |
Agreed, but in in NA it is indeed under the domain of "amateur built *experimental*
aircraft". Here in Canada i could legally even strap on jet engines and
as long as it meets the build 549 standards, im good to go with a normal rec license......
as long as i could find a company to insure the monstrosity :-) :-)
Not saying its right or wrong, just continentally different. :-)
Cheers,
Pete :-)
> On Jul 16, 2017, at 7:00 AM, John Wighton <john@wighton.net> wrote:
>
>
> With all due respect putting a new engine into an existing airframe is the job
for a professional aerospace engineer (Co) - for a light aircraft (non-certified)
this might take 3-4 years and gobble up around 200k of funds. Success is
thereafter not guaranteed. At some point you will need to negotiate the authorities.
>
> My experience is the lower down the food chain the local authority is the more
finickity they are. Our LAA is now hobbled with a CAA A8-26 organisation approval,
which they seem to interpret as needing to add an additional layer of
conservatism (and possibly suspicion) to everything they deal with. They are
all sterling chaps, just doing a job, but the iterative process of making MOD/design
submissions to them can try the patience - especially for those of us who
deal direct with EASA, the CAA and other organisations who hold their own DOA/POA
or hold Form 4 posts themselves.
>
> The Europa is a brilliant aeroplane that performs fantastically well on a Rotax
912S. My advice is to bite the bullet (sign the cheque), buy the Rotax and
get into the air as soon as you can.
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471039#471039
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh 2017 - almost here! |
Looks like I=99m driving again this year. Alternator died this
week. Bud is sending a replacement but I doubt I=99ll have time
to install and test. Should arrive in Oshkosh on Sunday.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jul 15, 2017, at 10:02 PM, Peter Zutrauen <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
wrote:
For the Europarites who are planning on the show, don't forget to drop
by my trailer's beer/pop cooler and shaded lawnchairs at the tower gate
... just drop me a note on the white board if I'm not around, and leave
messages to other Europa nuts too :-)
I'm hitting the road again for the show this Wed.
Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
<image1.JPG>
<image2.JPG>
<image3.JPG>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh 2017 - almost here! |
Just a reminder, our Europa forum is Friday July 28 from 2:30 until 3:45 at the
Homebuilders Hangar.
It will be our usual informal gathering, just a chance to meet others and share
experiences.
We hope to see you there.
Jim & Heather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471051#471051
Message 5
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| Subject: | DAR requested info. |
Mike,
Glad you hear you are progressing.
You are the builder/manufacturer so the DAR or FAA may request all the norm
al pilot instructions and markings a certified aircraft is supplied with.
His checklist may require documentation of your markings and many more thin
gs.
I provided you with a DAR T program letter (attached) and his checklist bef
ore you left the shop.
I am providing again some checklists I provided to you when you were here.
As the manufacturer you should be have the following:
Pilot Operating Handbook: It contains the three view, should have your wt.
and balance and normal and emergency procedures.
Placards in the Aircraft: The POH has the placards required in the UK and
they are fine for the US also. The FAA required passenger warning must be
posted (I put it on the panel in front of the passenger.). Every control s
hould be marked to its use. Not the stick or rudders but the throttle, cho
ke, all switches and CBs. If you flip it or pull it, it should be marked.
Calibrate and mark your fuel sight gauge and show that the amount of fuel
in the aircraft is visible during preflight and what the no go minimum for
flight fuel level is.
Instrument Markings: The airspeed indicator, and engine instruments should
be marked with the limits. The Registration should have a folder with a c
lear pocket visible to the passenger on entry.
Aircraft Markings: Aircraft ID Plate exactly as the Registration name and
address is printed, N numbers must be per the FARs, Door handle area marked
with open closed arrows, EXPERIMENTAL on the aircraft where a person enter
ing can see it. (I put it on the D panel.) Type of Fuel placard on the fu
el filler such as 100LL only etc. Oil type on the oil cap or door. No ste
p and no push etc. are not really necessary but many have them and some MID
O/DARs require them as the FAA requires them on some low wing aircraft.
As you know I did an abbreviated checklist as the POH is a little big to fl
y with. I=92ve attached those also. Use them as an example to build your
own or expand on the info in the POH as your aircraft is not a stock Europa
.
Lately there has been a push by DARs for certified pitot static checks, Tra
nsponder checks and although not required for 30 days normally, an ELT inst
alled and checked.
When the DAR shows up, a builder should present him with everything on his
checklist and then show him the aircraft and where that applies. I give th
em a file with the following:
FAA Registration
Wt. and Balance and ranges (we did this when you were here ). This include
s the equipment list.
Annex E verifying the flight control movement.
POH with current changes.
Personal pilot aircraft reference checklist if used in lieu of the POH for
quick reference.
Builders manual to include:.
Engine mods and ADs/SBs not accomplished and why. Compress
ion checks and ground run verification checks and modifications. (Like the
cooling stuff we did and provide photos.)
Airframe SBs, MODs and any deviations from the kit build ma
nual, like your gear, and why. Photos.
Log books:
Airframe: Logged with the required inspection and builders statements, ELT
, Pitot/Static leak check etc..
Engine log: With the original run in checks we did and I like to put in th
e mag check and full power numbers from the static run-ups, along with the
new compression check and oil pressure/temp recordings. Document the Jab c
ooling changes in the log book you made as he may know the engine and the t
emp problems with operations in Nevada.
Prop log: Installation and torque. I add the additional installation and
periodic torque checks such as 5 hr/25 hr per the prop manufacturers guidel
ines and a record of the dynamic balance.
Have available on request:
First flight and flight test program. (Where you will fly from and radius
as well as your test plan.)
Test pilot and his credentials if you are not flying the aircraft.
He is looking for you not to be a statistic on his record so expect him to
be thorough. As I told you before, =93You=92re ready to fly your aircraft
when you are prepared to walk up to the test pilots door and explain to his
wife, he is dead and there was nothing you could do to make the aircraft s
afer for flight=94. This kept me and my guys alive for years.
Please don=92t hesitate to call or email. I=92ll be at Oshkosh from Monday
to Thursday but back about the 9th of August from my planned stops and fam
ily plans.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Window
s 10
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh 2017 - almost here! |
Dang, Looks like I=99ll miss it as I=99m probably departing
either Thursday or Friday morning.
Hopefully, we can meet some lunch time earlier in the week at
Homebuilder=99s HQ.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com <mailto:rlborger@mac.com>
On Jul 16, 2017, at 8:32 AM, h&jeuropa <butcher43@att.net> wrote:
Just a reminder, our Europa forum is Friday July 28 from 2:30 until 3:45
at the Homebuilders Hangar.
It will be our usual informal gathering, just a chance to meet others
and share experiences.
We hope to see you there.
Jim & Heather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471051#471051
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum |
Believe it or not the engineering activity surrounding fitting a new engine, including
the challenges mentioned by the other forum contributors (engine mounts,
props, vibration, fuel systems, etc etc) - these things HAVE to be tackled
whether you deal with the LAA or not.
The reasons why these things are important don't just get diluted all because you
CAN just strap on a new motor and go fly. To engineer a robust, safe and long
term powerplant solution into a light aircraft requires knowledge, training
and experience. People who are successful either possess these attributes
or acquire them on the way. There is no short cut (aside from your buddies chipping
in, which is the same thing).
Fortunately the insurance companies in Canada and the USA have their heads screwed
on and will evaluate risk based on the aforementioned attributes, alongside
pilot experience, etc.
I am not trying to kill innovation, just giving you a heads up on the probable
pitfalls and issues that building a Europa with a new powerplant may bring.
Safe flying.
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471061#471061
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum |
Thankfully not all EAA'ers are apparently incompetent :-)
I have a solid engineering background as do many others who do enjoy the systems
engineering challenges. Add those to incredibly tight packaging constraints
and my humelbird 1/2vw fwf installation was fun indeed.
Lets not kill the spirit of innovation for the sake of argument. Those happy with
the bolt it in blindly rotax path (and there are even shortcomings with that)
shouldn't dissuade others.
Oh, btw, my hummel costs all of 200$ cdn annually to insure ;)
Cheers and blue skies!
Pete
A239
> On Jul 16, 2017, at 3:13 PM, John Wighton <john@wighton.net> wrote:
>
>
> Believe it or not the engineering activity surrounding fitting a new engine,
including the challenges mentioned by the other forum contributors (engine mounts,
props, vibration, fuel systems, etc etc) - these things HAVE to be tackled
whether you deal with the LAA or not.
>
> The reasons why these things are important don't just get diluted all because
you CAN just strap on a new motor and go fly. To engineer a robust, safe and
long term powerplant solution into a light aircraft requires knowledge, training
and experience. People who are successful either possess these attributes
or acquire them on the way. There is no short cut (aside from your buddies
chipping in, which is the same thing).
>
> Fortunately the insurance companies in Canada and the USA have their heads screwed
on and will evaluate risk based on the aforementioned attributes, alongside
pilot experience, etc.
>
> I am not trying to kill innovation, just giving you a heads up on the probable
pitfalls and issues that building a Europa with a new powerplant may bring.
>
> Safe flying.
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471061#471061
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum |
I'd think long and hard about going to a different engine combination. Those of
us who have put a different engine on, had a lot of extra work. I put a Jabiru
on mine, It came with an engine mount and cowling. The first engine mount
was the wrong one, the cowling had to be modified to fit correctly, the shape
was wrong for the oil cooler and there no draw to put air out of the cowl.
The Jabiru plenum chambers didn't fit correctly and had to be modified a lot.
There was no customer support as the gentleman that I it bought from went out
of business and the factory was 12,000 miles away and about ten time zones.
The engine was cheaper, but weigh 54 lbs. more than the Rotax 912, The Jabiru
was $18.7K Rotax 912 was $24K. I use about 1.5 gallons more per hour than
the 912 going the same speed.
I have had four years of headaches, Just now, I almost have a good flying plane.
That 54lbs, when I bough it. I didn't think to much about it, but now having
gained 40 lbs, My plane is a 1/1/2 person plane.
Build it light and keep it light
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471077#471077
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Engine Alternatives - Aeromomentum |
Indeed a new installation is alot of work....no question. Sadly the jabiru engines
have always been under performers with many technical issues. There are however
very well designed alternatives, such as the ULpower engines. If the smaller
UL was turbo-normalized to 130hp (design rating of the longer stroke derivative
- same heads), with inverted oil, it would be a strong alternative to
the rotax, with less complexity.
The D-motor is also an intriguing design, with minimized parts count and light
weight....although they will likely end up on the trash heap of other designs
such as the gemini junker diesel after being squashed by rotax.
The only point i am trying to make is that there are potential alternatives. My
perfect engine would be the 915iS......if one can ignore/tolerate rotax's part
price gouging policies.
Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
> On Jul 16, 2017, at 7:17 PM, AirEupora <AirEupora@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> I'd think long and hard about going to a different engine combination. Those
of us who have put a different engine on, had a lot of extra work. I put a Jabiru
on mine, It came with an engine mount and cowling. The first engine mount
was the wrong one, the cowling had to be modified to fit correctly, the shape
was wrong for the oil cooler and there no draw to put air out of the cowl.
The Jabiru plenum chambers didn't fit correctly and had to be modified a lot.
There was no customer support as the gentleman that I it bought from went
out of business and the factory was 12,000 miles away and about ten time zones.
The engine was cheaper, but weigh 54 lbs. more than the Rotax 912, The Jabiru
was $18.7K Rotax 912 was $24K. I use about 1.5 gallons more per hour than
the 912 going the same speed.
>
> I have had four years of headaches, Just now, I almost have a good flying plane.
That 54lbs, when I bough it. I didn't think to much about it, but now having
gained 40 lbs, My plane is a 1/1/2 person plane.
>
> Build it light and keep it light
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471077#471077
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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