Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:08 AM - Re: Fly-in Wyk auf Foehr EDXY 5th-6th August (Roland)
2. 03:12 AM - Re: G-BZTH (Roland)
3. 09:38 AM - Re: G-BZTH (Pete)
4. 10:06 AM - Europa VNE (Pete)
5. 10:38 AM - Re: Europa VNE (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
6. 10:39 AM - Engines....con't (Pete)
7. 12:41 PM - Re: Europa VNE (GTH)
8. 01:20 PM - Re: Europa VNE (Martin Tuck)
9. 02:06 PM - Re: Europa VNE (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
10. 02:17 PM - Re: Europa VNE (GTH)
11. 02:34 PM - Re: Europa VNE (Pete)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Fly-in Wyk auf Foehr EDXY 5th-6th August |
Currently it's raining cats and dogs in Dsseldorf, but I'm hoping to go in the
afternoon and join the hangar party tonight.
On the webcam the weather at EDXY looks good with the first participants arriving.
See some of you later hopefully - I'm wearing my Europa cap of course :-)
Regards
Roland PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471512#471512
Message 2
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David,
thanks for the info and please relay my best wishes for a speedy recovery to Tlm.
I'm very glad, that he was able to walk away from the accident with only minor
injuries, what is most important of course. The plane can be fixed in the
longer run I suppose/hope.
I'd be very much interested in the cause of the failure.
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471513#471513
Message 3
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I am saddened to hear of Tim's misadventure and damage to his fine ship, but
am relieved to hear that Tim is recovering. Best wishes for a quick recover
y and getting his bird back into the air!
Tim generously took me up in his beautiful bird (photo attached) when I drop
ped by during an over-the-pond business trip to a nearby town a few years ag
o now..... a ride which provided the motivation to keep my Europa alive. :)
Pete,
A239
(Ottawa, ON, Canada)
> On Aug 4, 2017, at 2:28 PM, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote:
>
>
>
> I am sorry to report (with his approval) that Tim Houlihan had an engine f
ailure in N Gloucestershire and did an emergency landing in what proved to b
e a very rough field, resulting in substantial damage to the plane. He walke
d away from the crash but with a sore back and cut hand, currently receiving
attention in the JR Hospital in Oxford.
>
> David Joyce, GXSDJ
>
>
Message 4
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I am attempting to determine the maximum usable HP that the Europa while rem
aining below the factory published VNE and have a few questions for the fact
ory (if anyone with the history is listening) and existing Europa fliers:
1- The factory published VNE is: "VNE (IAS) 165kn 191mph 307kmh". Is this
VNE based on a structural limit, or a flutter limit?
2- If the factory's VNE is determined by a flutter limit, I would have to as
sume that the 191mph is at sea-level density altitude - does anyone know if t
his assumption is valid? This would mean that at 13k ft, it would be reduced
to ~160mph IAS and even less up heigher (I have attached a very informative
article regarding VNE and TAS). Does anyone know if the factory ever execut
ed proper flutter testing?
3- What is the max level speed obtained by Europa fliers (likely with a 914)
? I am asking because I hear of 914 fliers cruising at 140ish Knots IAS at 7
5% (86hp?) down low, but am wondering where on the Europa's drag curve this i
s. Is it near the flattening section of the exponential speed/hp curve (or c
onversely the escalating drag curve), or is there still some room before tha
t "drag-wall" is reached? What I am attempting to determine is what the spe
ed would be for a Europa mono (with fairings etc.) with a constant speed pro
p, and continuous 110-120 cruise hp? I do realize that these numbers would b
e very prop dependent etc.
Many thanks for any and all insight/experience,
Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
Message 5
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Pete, I cannot give you an answer to 1 & 2 but I dare say Ivan Shaw
would be prepared to give you chapter and verse if you asked him, or
Andy Draper at the LAA. As to 3. My 914 mono XS with speed kit did 156
TAS at 2000 ft level and 164 kt TAS at 6,500ft and exceeds VNE at any
height over that. Note these are True air speeds. My smart Blue Mountain
EFIS had a TAS read out. They were also done scrupulously with an
observer at near max AUW, as poart of a comparison of a low twist
Woodcomp SR2000 and a high twist Woodcomp SR3000W CS props, the latter
giving the speed above and the low twist prop consistently 4 kts less.
Certainly it is not at all difficult to exceed VNE if you are travelling
at high cruise speed and dive to avoid something. We are required by the
LAA to take the plane to VNE each year for our Permit renewal and 165
kts always feels as smooth as 120 assuming still air.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-08-05 18:04, Pete wrote:
> I am attempting to determine the maximum usable HP that the Europa while remaining
below the factory published VNE and have a few questions for the factory
(if anyone with the history is listening) and existing Europa fliers:
>
> 1- The factory published VNE is: "VNE (IAS) 165kn 191mph 30 [1]7kmh". Is this
VNE based on a structural limit, or a flutter limit?
>
> 2- If the factory's VNE is determined by a flutter limit, I would have to assume
that the 191mph is at sea-level density altitude - does anyone know if this
assumption is valid? This would mean that at 13k ft, it would be reduced to
~160mph IAS and even less up heigher (I have attached a very informative article
regarding VNE and TAS). Does anyone know if the factory ever executed proper
flutter testing?
>
> 3- What is the max level speed obtained by Europa fliers (likely with a 914)?
I am asking because I hear of 914 fliers cruising at 140ish Knots IAS at 75%
(86hp?) down low, but am wondering where on the Europa's drag curve this is. Is
it near the flattening section of the exponential speed/hp curve (or conversely
the escalating drag curve), or is there still some room before that "drag-wall"
is reached? What I am attempting to determine is what the speed would be
for a Europa mono (with fairings etc.) with a constant speed prop, and continuous
110-120 cruise hp? I do realize that these numbers would be very prop dependent
etc.
>
> Many thanks for any and all insight/experience,
> Cheers and blue skies,
> Pete
Links:
------
[1] tel:165%20191%20307
Message 6
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Subject: | Engines....con't |
The following is some engine trivia for the Europa builders out there not ye
t having sourced an engine: Having spent yet another year at Osh attempting t
o educate myself, on the subject of engine choices I have come to the follow
ing personal conclusions fwiw (my opinion only, "you mileage may vary" etc.
:-)
1- The only feasible/reliable geared engine I saw at the show is the Rotax 9
-series with its thorough engineering to deal with the resonant issues with i
t's newer (since the 100hp) 30deg dog clutch and additional integrated pack-
clutch, set to ~500lbs. I have attached a few cut-away pics of the gearbox o
f it's clever dense packaging). The auto conversions, with their solid engin
e cores have a weak link in the gearboxes - the simplistic rubber bushings..
.. a design that I do not believe is adequate. The European BMW two-cyl with
gearbox appears to now have some good in-service experience, but was not at
the show to check out, and it's gearbox design is still unknown to me.
2- For direct drive engines, there are two feasible designs:
- the ULPower engines: a turbo'd small short-stroke low compression fou
r cyl, or a naturally aspirated larger long-stroke higher compression four c
yl - either would be lighter than the 914 installation.
- The still unproven but incredibly light and low parts-count flat-head w
ater cooled designed D-motor: either a turbo'd four cyl, or the 6 cylinder,
with the 4 being lighter than the 914, and the 6 cyl being about the same w
eight as the 914, albiet not as good at altitude. A turbo'd 4 cyl would get a
round the flat-head's inherent lower compression ratio, and should be good p
erformer.
The 915 is too heavy for the Europa (215lbs as per the factory rep), and wit
h an even longer gearbox putting that CG even further forward it is not a go
od option for the Europa, if one wants FI and Turbo. The smaller ULPower en
gine would be terrific turbo'd, but the factory is not wanting to deal with c
ustomer turbo customer support head-aches and reluctant to provide custom FI
maps. That leaves the D-motor..... which I will be watching carefully over
the next year or so before I'll need to make a decision.
Chatting with Airmaster at the show, a geared prop for the Rotax would be 1-
2k$ (~10%) less expensive (and lighter) than the equivalent prop for the dir
ect drive engines which have to deal with the increased engine pulses and ha
rmonics.
FWIW,
Cheers, and blue skies,
Pete
Message 7
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Le 05/08/2017 19:36, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a crit :
>
> As to 3. My 914 mono XS with speed kit did 156 TAS at 2000 ft level
> and 164 kt TAS at 6,500ft and exceeds VNE at any height over that.
> Note these are True air speeds. My smart Blue Mountain EFIS had a TAS
> read out.
>
Hi all,
I would like to point out that Vno, Vne etc. have to do with aerodynamic
efforts and so are IAS velocities (or more accurately CAS).
David, concerning your speed reports, are those *cruise* numbers (75%
power), or all out performance numbers ? What were your engine & prop
settings ? Were the conditions near standard, or was the weather cold, etc.
And BTW, what were your IAS's ?
Thanks,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 8
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I've been trying to figure why you have to show the aircraft can reach VNE as part
of the annual check (i.e. every year). Seems quite a needlessly 'risky' thing
to do. Either it does or ... what?
Regards,
Martin Tuck
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 5, 2017, at 2:40 PM, GTH <gilles.thesee@free.fr> wrote:
>
>
>> Le 05/08/2017 19:36, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a crit :
>>
>> As to 3. My 914 mono XS with speed kit did 156 TAS at 2000 ft level and 164
kt TAS at 6,500ft and exceeds VNE at any height over that. Note these are True
air speeds. My smart Blue Mountain EFIS had a TAS read out.
>>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would like to point out that Vno, Vne etc. have to do with aerodynamic efforts
and so are IAS velocities (or more accurately CAS).
>
> David, concerning your speed reports, are those *cruise* numbers (75% power),
or all out performance numbers ? What were your engine & prop settings ? Were
the conditions near standard, or was the weather cold, etc.
> And BTW, what were your IAS's ?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Best regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
> http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
>
>
>
Message 9
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Gilles, These speeds were at 100% power (as opposed to the 115% max
power available on the 914 for just 5mins). It was several years ago now
and I have long since lost the paper that had those sort of other
details on, but I remember it as a typical British summer day - probably
around 20C. At 6500ft & up the pitch was on its coarse stop and probably
I could have gone faster with a coarser coarse setting. I will send you
the report written at the time.
Regards, David
On 2017-08-05 20:40, GTH wrote:
>
> Le 05/08/2017 19:36, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a crit :
>
>> As to 3. My 914 mono XS with speed kit did 156 TAS at 2000 ft level and 164
kt TAS at 6,500ft and exceeds VNE at any height over that. Note these are True
air speeds. My smart Blue Mountain EFIS had a TAS read out.
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would like to point out that Vno, Vne etc. have to do with aerodynamic efforts
and so are IAS velocities (or more accurately CAS).
>
> David, concerning your speed reports, are those *cruise* numbers (75% power),
or all out performance numbers ? What were your engine & prop settings ? Were
the conditions near standard, or was the weather cold, etc.
> And BTW, what were your IAS's ?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Best regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr [1]
> http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr [2]
Links:
------
[1] http://contrails.free.fr
[2] http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
[3] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[4] http://forums.matronics.com
[5] http://wiki.matronics.com
[6] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
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/Le 05/08/2017 23:05, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a crit :
/
> //
>
> /Gilles, These speeds were at 100% power (as opposed to the 115% max
> power available on the 914 for just 5mins). It was several years ago
> now and I have long since lost the paper that had those sort of other
> details on, but I remember it as a typical British summer day -
> probably around 20C. At 6500ft & up the pitch was on its coarse stop
> and probably I could have gone faster with a coarser coarse setting.
> I will send you the report written at the time./
>
David,
Thank you for the details. I'm always interested in hard numbers ;-).
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 11
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Me too! :-)
Thx,
Pete
> On Aug 5, 2017, at 5:17 PM, GTH <gilles.thesee@free.fr> wrote:
>
>> Le 05/08/2017 =C3- 23:05, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a =C3=A9crit :
>> Gilles, These speeds were at 100% power (as opposed to the 115% max power
available on the 914 for just 5mins). It was several years ago now and I ha
ve long since lost the paper that had those sort of other details on, but I r
emember it as a typical British summer day - probably around 20C. At 6500ft &
up the pitch was on its coarse stop and probably I could have gone faster w
ith a coarser coarse setting. I will send you the report written at the tim
e.
>>
> David,
>
> Thank you for the details. I'm always interested in hard numbers ;-).
> --
> Best regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
> http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
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