---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/05/17: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:08 AM - Re: Fly-in Wyk auf Foehr EDXY 5th-6th August (Roland) 2. 03:12 AM - Re: G-BZTH (Roland) 3. 09:38 AM - Re: G-BZTH (Pete) 4. 10:06 AM - Europa VNE (Pete) 5. 10:38 AM - Re: Europa VNE (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 6. 10:39 AM - Engines....con't (Pete) 7. 12:41 PM - Re: Europa VNE (GTH) 8. 01:20 PM - Re: Europa VNE (Martin Tuck) 9. 02:06 PM - Re: Europa VNE (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 10. 02:17 PM - Re: Europa VNE (GTH) 11. 02:34 PM - Re: Europa VNE (Pete) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:47 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fly-in Wyk auf Foehr EDXY 5th-6th August From: "Roland" Currently it's raining cats and dogs in Dsseldorf, but I'm hoping to go in the afternoon and join the hangar party tonight. On the webcam the weather at EDXY looks good with the first participants arriving. See some of you later hopefully - I'm wearing my Europa cap of course :-) Regards Roland PH-ZTI XS TG 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471512#471512 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:08 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: G-BZTH From: "Roland" David, thanks for the info and please relay my best wishes for a speedy recovery to Tlm. I'm very glad, that he was able to walk away from the accident with only minor injuries, what is most important of course. The plane can be fixed in the longer run I suppose/hope. I'd be very much interested in the cause of the failure. Roland PH-ZTI XS TG 914 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471513#471513 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: G-BZTH From: Pete I am saddened to hear of Tim's misadventure and damage to his fine ship, but am relieved to hear that Tim is recovering. Best wishes for a quick recover y and getting his bird back into the air! Tim generously took me up in his beautiful bird (photo attached) when I drop ped by during an over-the-pond business trip to a nearby town a few years ag o now..... a ride which provided the motivation to keep my Europa alive. :) Pete, A239 (Ottawa, ON, Canada) > On Aug 4, 2017, at 2:28 PM, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote: > > > > I am sorry to report (with his approval) that Tim Houlihan had an engine f ailure in N Gloucestershire and did an emergency landing in what proved to b e a very rough field, resulting in substantial damage to the plane. He walke d away from the crash but with a sore back and cut hand, currently receiving attention in the JR Hospital in Oxford. > > David Joyce, GXSDJ > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:22 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Europa VNE From: Pete I am attempting to determine the maximum usable HP that the Europa while rem aining below the factory published VNE and have a few questions for the fact ory (if anyone with the history is listening) and existing Europa fliers: 1- The factory published VNE is: "VNE (IAS) 165kn 191mph 307kmh". Is this VNE based on a structural limit, or a flutter limit? 2- If the factory's VNE is determined by a flutter limit, I would have to as sume that the 191mph is at sea-level density altitude - does anyone know if t his assumption is valid? This would mean that at 13k ft, it would be reduced to ~160mph IAS and even less up heigher (I have attached a very informative article regarding VNE and TAS). Does anyone know if the factory ever execut ed proper flutter testing? 3- What is the max level speed obtained by Europa fliers (likely with a 914) ? I am asking because I hear of 914 fliers cruising at 140ish Knots IAS at 7 5% (86hp?) down low, but am wondering where on the Europa's drag curve this i s. Is it near the flattening section of the exponential speed/hp curve (or c onversely the escalating drag curve), or is there still some room before tha t "drag-wall" is reached? What I am attempting to determine is what the spe ed would be for a Europa mono (with fairings etc.) with a constant speed pro p, and continuous 110-120 cruise hp? I do realize that these numbers would b e very prop dependent etc. Many thanks for any and all insight/experience, Cheers and blue skies, Pete ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:23 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa VNE Pete, I cannot give you an answer to 1 & 2 but I dare say Ivan Shaw would be prepared to give you chapter and verse if you asked him, or Andy Draper at the LAA. As to 3. My 914 mono XS with speed kit did 156 TAS at 2000 ft level and 164 kt TAS at 6,500ft and exceeds VNE at any height over that. Note these are True air speeds. My smart Blue Mountain EFIS had a TAS read out. They were also done scrupulously with an observer at near max AUW, as poart of a comparison of a low twist Woodcomp SR2000 and a high twist Woodcomp SR3000W CS props, the latter giving the speed above and the low twist prop consistently 4 kts less. Certainly it is not at all difficult to exceed VNE if you are travelling at high cruise speed and dive to avoid something. We are required by the LAA to take the plane to VNE each year for our Permit renewal and 165 kts always feels as smooth as 120 assuming still air. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2017-08-05 18:04, Pete wrote: > I am attempting to determine the maximum usable HP that the Europa while remaining below the factory published VNE and have a few questions for the factory (if anyone with the history is listening) and existing Europa fliers: > > 1- The factory published VNE is: "VNE (IAS) 165kn 191mph 30 [1]7kmh". Is this VNE based on a structural limit, or a flutter limit? > > 2- If the factory's VNE is determined by a flutter limit, I would have to assume that the 191mph is at sea-level density altitude - does anyone know if this assumption is valid? This would mean that at 13k ft, it would be reduced to ~160mph IAS and even less up heigher (I have attached a very informative article regarding VNE and TAS). Does anyone know if the factory ever executed proper flutter testing? > > 3- What is the max level speed obtained by Europa fliers (likely with a 914)? I am asking because I hear of 914 fliers cruising at 140ish Knots IAS at 75% (86hp?) down low, but am wondering where on the Europa's drag curve this is. Is it near the flattening section of the exponential speed/hp curve (or conversely the escalating drag curve), or is there still some room before that "drag-wall" is reached? What I am attempting to determine is what the speed would be for a Europa mono (with fairings etc.) with a constant speed prop, and continuous 110-120 cruise hp? I do realize that these numbers would be very prop dependent etc. > > Many thanks for any and all insight/experience, > Cheers and blue skies, > Pete Links: ------ [1] tel:165%20191%20307 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:05 AM PST US From: Pete Subject: Europa-List: Engines....con't The following is some engine trivia for the Europa builders out there not ye t having sourced an engine: Having spent yet another year at Osh attempting t o educate myself, on the subject of engine choices I have come to the follow ing personal conclusions fwiw (my opinion only, "you mileage may vary" etc. :-) 1- The only feasible/reliable geared engine I saw at the show is the Rotax 9 -series with its thorough engineering to deal with the resonant issues with i t's newer (since the 100hp) 30deg dog clutch and additional integrated pack- clutch, set to ~500lbs. I have attached a few cut-away pics of the gearbox o f it's clever dense packaging). The auto conversions, with their solid engin e cores have a weak link in the gearboxes - the simplistic rubber bushings.. .. a design that I do not believe is adequate. The European BMW two-cyl with gearbox appears to now have some good in-service experience, but was not at the show to check out, and it's gearbox design is still unknown to me. 2- For direct drive engines, there are two feasible designs: - the ULPower engines: a turbo'd small short-stroke low compression fou r cyl, or a naturally aspirated larger long-stroke higher compression four c yl - either would be lighter than the 914 installation. - The still unproven but incredibly light and low parts-count flat-head w ater cooled designed D-motor: either a turbo'd four cyl, or the 6 cylinder, with the 4 being lighter than the 914, and the 6 cyl being about the same w eight as the 914, albiet not as good at altitude. A turbo'd 4 cyl would get a round the flat-head's inherent lower compression ratio, and should be good p erformer. The 915 is too heavy for the Europa (215lbs as per the factory rep), and wit h an even longer gearbox putting that CG even further forward it is not a go od option for the Europa, if one wants FI and Turbo. The smaller ULPower en gine would be terrific turbo'd, but the factory is not wanting to deal with c ustomer turbo customer support head-aches and reluctant to provide custom FI maps. That leaves the D-motor..... which I will be watching carefully over the next year or so before I'll need to make a decision. Chatting with Airmaster at the show, a geared prop for the Rotax would be 1- 2k$ (~10%) less expensive (and lighter) than the equivalent prop for the dir ect drive engines which have to deal with the increased engine pulses and ha rmonics. FWIW, Cheers, and blue skies, Pete ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa VNE From: GTH Le 05/08/2017 19:36, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a crit : > > As to 3. My 914 mono XS with speed kit did 156 TAS at 2000 ft level > and 164 kt TAS at 6,500ft and exceeds VNE at any height over that. > Note these are True air speeds. My smart Blue Mountain EFIS had a TAS > read out. > Hi all, I would like to point out that Vno, Vne etc. have to do with aerodynamic efforts and so are IAS velocities (or more accurately CAS). David, concerning your speed reports, are those *cruise* numbers (75% power), or all out performance numbers ? What were your engine & prop settings ? Were the conditions near standard, or was the weather cold, etc. And BTW, what were your IAS's ? Thanks, -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:39 PM PST US From: Martin Tuck Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa VNE I've been trying to figure why you have to show the aircraft can reach VNE as part of the annual check (i.e. every year). Seems quite a needlessly 'risky' thing to do. Either it does or ... what? Regards, Martin Tuck Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 5, 2017, at 2:40 PM, GTH wrote: > > >> Le 05/08/2017 19:36, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a crit : >> >> As to 3. My 914 mono XS with speed kit did 156 TAS at 2000 ft level and 164 kt TAS at 6,500ft and exceeds VNE at any height over that. Note these are True air speeds. My smart Blue Mountain EFIS had a TAS read out. >> > > Hi all, > > I would like to point out that Vno, Vne etc. have to do with aerodynamic efforts and so are IAS velocities (or more accurately CAS). > > David, concerning your speed reports, are those *cruise* numbers (75% power), or all out performance numbers ? What were your engine & prop settings ? Were the conditions near standard, or was the weather cold, etc. > And BTW, what were your IAS's ? > > Thanks, > -- > Best regards, > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr > http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:09 PM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa VNE Gilles, These speeds were at 100% power (as opposed to the 115% max power available on the 914 for just 5mins). It was several years ago now and I have long since lost the paper that had those sort of other details on, but I remember it as a typical British summer day - probably around 20C. At 6500ft & up the pitch was on its coarse stop and probably I could have gone faster with a coarser coarse setting. I will send you the report written at the time. Regards, David On 2017-08-05 20:40, GTH wrote: > > Le 05/08/2017 19:36, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a crit : > >> As to 3. My 914 mono XS with speed kit did 156 TAS at 2000 ft level and 164 kt TAS at 6,500ft and exceeds VNE at any height over that. Note these are True air speeds. My smart Blue Mountain EFIS had a TAS read out. > > Hi all, > > I would like to point out that Vno, Vne etc. have to do with aerodynamic efforts and so are IAS velocities (or more accurately CAS). > > David, concerning your speed reports, are those *cruise* numbers (75% power), or all out performance numbers ? What were your engine & prop settings ? Were the conditions near standard, or was the weather cold, etc. > And BTW, what were your IAS's ? > > Thanks, > -- > Best regards, > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr [1] > http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr [2] Links: ------ [1] http://contrails.free.fr [2] http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr [3] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [4] http://forums.matronics.com [5] http://wiki.matronics.com [6] http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa VNE From: GTH /Le 05/08/2017 23:05, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a crit : / > // > > /Gilles, These speeds were at 100% power (as opposed to the 115% max > power available on the 914 for just 5mins). It was several years ago > now and I have long since lost the paper that had those sort of other > details on, but I remember it as a typical British summer day - > probably around 20C. At 6500ft & up the pitch was on its coarse stop > and probably I could have gone faster with a coarser coarse setting. > I will send you the report written at the time./ > David, Thank you for the details. I'm always interested in hard numbers ;-). -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa VNE From: Pete Me too! :-) Thx, Pete > On Aug 5, 2017, at 5:17 PM, GTH wrote: > >> Le 05/08/2017 =C3- 23:05, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a =C3=A9crit : >> Gilles, These speeds were at 100% power (as opposed to the 115% max power available on the 914 for just 5mins). It was several years ago now and I ha ve long since lost the paper that had those sort of other details on, but I r emember it as a typical British summer day - probably around 20C. At 6500ft & up the pitch was on its coarse stop and probably I could have gone faster w ith a coarser coarse setting. I will send you the report written at the tim e. >> > David, > > Thank you for the details. I'm always interested in hard numbers ;-). > -- > Best regards, > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr > http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.