Today's Message Index:
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1. 03:23 AM - Re: aileron balancing (Jan de Jong)
2. 03:29 AM - Re: aileron balancing (n7188u)
3. 04:43 AM - Re: Re: aileron balancing (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
4. 04:53 AM - Re: Re: aileron balancing (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
5. 06:42 AM - Re: aileron balancing (n7188u)
6. 08:35 AM - Re: aileron balancing (h&jeuropa)
7. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: aileron balancing (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
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Subject: | Re: aileron balancing |
Tungsten welding rod could be a source of extra mass, f.i.:
http://www.r-techwelding.co.uk/welding-equipment/tig-welder-consumables/tig-torch-consumables/tig-welder-tungsten-electrodes/
Jan de Jong
On 8/29/2017 10:01 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
> Rowland
> you could try some tunsten carbide grinding dust from you local tool
> grinder?
> Mixed with a little epoxy its heavier than lead.
> Also polish off some of the paint, at the trailing edge will have most
> effect of course.
>
> Graham
>
>
> On Tuesday, 29 August 2017, 17:27, Rowland Carson
> <rowlandcarson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> <rowlandcarson@gmail.com <mailto:rowlandcarson@gmail.com>>
>
> Having got my ailerons back from the painter, I weighed them. The port
> one was 2480g before filling, profiling & painting; that whole process
> has added 625g to make it now 3105g. The starboard one was 2495g, and
> gained 670g to make it 3165g. The paint was 2-pack automotive which I
> was assured would turn out much lighter (and cheaper!) than the
> gel-coat I had originally envisaged.
>
> I started into the balancing procedure described in the manual. I
> found my hinges are not quite free enough to let the ailerons swing
> freely from them, so I made loops of nylon fishing line, put them
> under the hinge knuckles and suspended the ailerons from them. Alas! -
> both the ailerons balance with the TE slightly down. I find that if I
> put a lead weight on one horn, I can make the aileron balance level.
> My piece of lead weighs 366g and level balance is obtained with it
> about 50mm forward of the hinge line.
>
> Thus the out-of-balance moment towards the TE is 0.0183 metre-kg. I
> wonder if there is any tolerance on the amount of out-of-balance that
> is allowed or is safe - but I dont want to take any chances with flutter.
>
> Avid readers of my online build journal will recall that in May 2003,
> on advice from Neville about getting the proper aileron travel, I
> shaved a little off the top of the lead weights before attaching them
> to the aileron horns. It now appears that either I must have shaved
> too much or that the painting has been much more generous than Neville
> expected.
>
> What should I do? I suppose the ideal thing is to rub down all the
> paint back to the glass/filler again and ask the painter to put on a
> lighter coat. I dont have access to depleted uranium to insert into
> the mass horns to make them heavier!
>
> I hope I might see Andy Draper at the LAA Rally and ask for his
> advice, but would welcome any thoughts others on this forum might have
> on the matter.
>
> in friendship
>
> Rowland
>
> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk <http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Li; - MATRONICS WEB
> FORUMS -
> http://forums.matro - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
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>
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Subject: | Re: aileron balancing |
Rowland,
Not being the designer of the aircraft it's hard to provide a definite opinion
about tolerance on the balance. But I can provide you my experience with the LongEZ
and an opinion of what I'd do.
My LongEZ developed a well known issue where the ailerons would have a high frequency
buzz when in cruise. Upon research, it is written in the Rutan newsletters
that this is a common problem with the LongEZ and Rutan adamantly claims it's
not flutter (he says if it was flutter you wouldn't be there to tell the story).
What the issue is is an effect of engine vibration combined with a little
wear in the hinge and a natural frequency that will cause the vibration.
So to the relevant part to your issue. The LongEZ elevator balance could flutter
if a little off balance and it is critical. But the aileron is not so critical.
The difference is the aeroelastic characteristic of what it is attached to.
The canard flexes a lot so flutter will bend the canard and will worsen the
flutter to the point of destruction. The wing is too stiff and will hold things
in check. If the elevator wont balance you have to throw it away and make a
new one. Not so with the ailerons. Again, this is the LongEZ, don't know about
the Europa.
When I pulled my aileron out and I checked the balance, it was TE down by quite
a bit. But the aircraft flew for 20 years like that and it was even used for
racing with no issues. Anyway, he procedure to fix the buzz is to ad teflon liners
to the hinge pins to eliminate slop and use a thin lead tape (not the thick
wheel balancing stuff) and layer it on the aileron LE nose until the aileron
is level. Keep in mind that the nose of the aileron on the LEZ is further forward
from the hinge line than in the Europa. Once you find a satisfactory number
of layers, you go fly and if you are happy you scuff the paint fore and aft
of the lead tape and place a 1 BID layer to make it permanent (which I haven't
done yet). Buzz is now gone.
So to your issue (my opinion): You can either place some tape on the balance horns
(sides or bottom) or sand some paint off the bottom of the aileron and go
fly. Building is fun but flying is more so :). Anyway, you will have time to address
what to do with it later but I suspect you will be having too much fun
flying! BTW, you being in the UK your only option maybe the sanding of the aileron
bottom, you need to check at your end. But what I am trying to say, is don't
sweat it. If the aileron is a bit heavy (but balanced) the airplane is going
to fly great anyway!
However, I concur with the other forum member. Do question the weight of the paint
now that you have time. It maybe OK but get some feedback and see if yours
is coming up too heavy.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472349#472349
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: aileron balancing |
Jan & RowlandI had a Long EZ too. Another cure for the aileron buzz was Fle
ttner stripssimilar to those on the Europa elevator trim tab. A sharp trail
ing edge is
emotionally satisfying but is not as efficient as we expect because of the
thickness of the boundary layer. That's why Flettner strips were added on t
he Europa.Graham
On Wednesday, 30 August 2017, 11:33, n7188u <chmgarb@gmail.com> wrote:
Rowland,
Not being the designer of the aircraft it's hard to provide a definite opin
ion about tolerance on the balance. But I can provide you my experience wit
h the LongEZ and an opinion of what I'd do.
My LongEZ developed a well known issue where the ailerons would have a high
frequency buzz when in cruise. Upon research, it is written in the Rutan n
ewsletters that this is a common problem with the LongEZ and Rutan adamantl
y claims it's not flutter (he says if it was flutter you wouldn't be there
to tell the story). What the issue is is an effect of engine vibration comb
ined with a little wear in the hinge and a natural frequency that will caus
e the vibration.
So to the relevant part to your issue. The LongEZ elevator balance could fl
utter if a little off balance and it is critical. But the aileron is not so
critical. The difference is the aeroelastic characteristic of what it is a
ttached to. The canard flexes a lot so flutter will bend the canard and wil
l worsen the flutter to the point of destruction. The wing is too stiff and
will hold things in check. If the elevator wont balance you have to throw
it away and make a new one. Not so with the ailerons. Again, this is the Lo
ngEZ, don't know about the Europa.
When I pulled my aileron out and I checked the balance, it was TE down by q
uite a bit. But the aircraft flew for 20 years like that and it was even us
ed for racing with no issues. Anyway, he procedure to fix the buzz is to ad
teflon liners to the hinge pins to eliminate slop and use a thin lead tape
(not the thick wheel balancing stuff) and layer it on the aileron LE nose
until the aileron is level. Keep in mind that the nose of the aileron on th
e LEZ is further forward from the hinge line than in the Europa. Once you f
ind a satisfactory number of layers, you go fly and if you are happy you sc
uff the paint fore and aft of the lead tape and place a 1 BID layer to make
it permanent (which I haven't done yet). Buzz is now gone.
So to your issue (my opinion): You can either place some tape on the balanc
e horns (sides or bottom) or sand some paint off the bottom of the aileron
and go fly. Building is fun but flying is more so :). Anyway, you will have
time to address what to do with it later but I suspect you will be having
too much fun flying! BTW, you being in the UK your only option maybe the sa
nding of the aileron bottom, you need to check at your end. But what I am t
rying to say, is don't sweat it. If the aileron is a bit heavy (but balance
d) the airplane is going to fly great anyway!
However, I concur with the other forum member. Do question the weight of th
e paint now that you have time. It maybe OK but get some feedback and see i
f yours is coming up too heavy.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472349#472349
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: aileron balancing |
Jan & RowlandI had a Long EZ too. Another cure for the aileron buzz was Fle
ttner stripssimilar to those on the Europa elevator trim tab. A sharp trail
ing edge is
emotionally satisfying but is not as efficient as we expect because of the
thickness of the boundary layer. That's why Flettner strips were added on t
he Europa.Graham
On Wednesday, 30 August 2017, 11:33, n7188u <chmgarb@gmail.com> wrote:
Rowland,
Not being the designer of the aircraft it's hard to provide a definite opin
ion about tolerance on the balance. But I can provide you my experience wit
h the LongEZ and an opinion of what I'd do.
My LongEZ developed a well known issue where the ailerons would have a high
frequency buzz when in cruise. Upon research, it is written in the Rutan n
ewsletters that this is a common problem with the LongEZ and Rutan adamantl
y claims it's not flutter (he says if it was flutter you wouldn't be there
to tell the story). What the issue is is an effect of engine vibration comb
ined with a little wear in the hinge and a natural frequency that will caus
e the vibration.
So to the relevant part to your issue. The LongEZ elevator balance could fl
utter if a little off balance and it is critical. But the aileron is not so
critical. The difference is the aeroelastic characteristic of what it is a
ttached to. The canard flexes a lot so flutter will bend the canard and wil
l worsen the flutter to the point of destruction. The wing is too stiff and
will hold things in check. If the elevator wont balance you have to throw
it away and make a new one. Not so with the ailerons. Again, this is the Lo
ngEZ, don't know about the Europa.
When I pulled my aileron out and I checked the balance, it was TE down by q
uite a bit. But the aircraft flew for 20 years like that and it was even us
ed for racing with no issues. Anyway, he procedure to fix the buzz is to ad
teflon liners to the hinge pins to eliminate slop and use a thin lead tape
(not the thick wheel balancing stuff) and layer it on the aileron LE nose
until the aileron is level. Keep in mind that the nose of the aileron on th
e LEZ is further forward from the hinge line than in the Europa. Once you f
ind a satisfactory number of layers, you go fly and if you are happy you sc
uff the paint fore and aft of the lead tape and place a 1 BID layer to make
it permanent (which I haven't done yet). Buzz is now gone.
So to your issue (my opinion): You can either place some tape on the balanc
e horns (sides or bottom) or sand some paint off the bottom of the aileron
and go fly. Building is fun but flying is more so :). Anyway, you will have
time to address what to do with it later but I suspect you will be having
too much fun flying! BTW, you being in the UK your only option maybe the sa
nding of the aileron bottom, you need to check at your end. But what I am t
rying to say, is don't sweat it. If the aileron is a bit heavy (but balance
d) the airplane is going to fly great anyway!
However, I concur with the other forum member. Do question the weight of th
e paint now that you have time. It maybe OK but get some feedback and see i
f yours is coming up too heavy.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472349#472349
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: aileron balancing |
You are correct Graham.
BTW, When I wrote the email, in haste before going to work this morning, I mentioned
adding the lead strips on the sides of the balance horns but I missed something.
And as I kept hearing when I visited London this summer: "Mind the Gap"
:)
A quick calculation yields that if you place 366/2=183 grams on each horn you need
about 16cm^3 and with a tape that is 3/8" wide x 6.3 mils thick you need about
11 meters. Thanks a lot I think.
So it seems that the option you have is shed some weight on the TE of the aileron
is to sand paint off but the question is: are you sure it's a paint issue?
Will sanding the paint be enough?
BTW, on the question of tolerance on the balance, and please keep in mind that
although I am an Engineer I am not an Aerodynamics, in Engineering there are always
tolerances to everything. If something is off a little from nominal and
it fails then you have a design problem. With that said, I wouldn't know how far
off it can be before it is an issue.
BTW, in the LongEZ, the aileron balance condition is not to the chord line but
to the bottom of the surface your are balancing (in the orientation it is being
balanced). It is then much less demanding that in the Europa which calls for
level chord line (but I need to check on that, I don't have my LongEZ plans here
at work but "almost" sure). And to be honest, when I rebalanced my ailerons
for the buzz problem, I didn't quite level the bottom surface but I was darn
close. Then again, it is documented that the balance of the ailerons in the LongEZ
is not as critical as the elevator.
I hope this doesn't stir ugly debates. As a Design Engineer, I am faced with decisions
and compromises every day so I am trained to question these things and
used to having these conversations. But if there is a lack of information to
make a decision that deviates from the instructions, I would err toward the side
of meeting the written requirements. Your decision.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472354#472354
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Subject: | Re: aileron balancing |
Rowland,
We added an aileron trim motor in the stbd aileron. This made it quite heavy and
we used tungsten carbide from McMaster to achieve balance.
BTW we tried lead balls embedded in epoxy but we could not get the density of solid
lead. There is a lot of open space between spheres!
The increase in weight (20%-25%) from filling, profiling and paint seems excessive.
Perhaps you can color sand much of it off.
We color sanded all our painted surfaces. There is good information on the 3M website about doing this and we used 3M products. There also is a good book available from EAA, https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-shop/media/aviation-books/2256137300000__how-to-paint-your-own-airplane The articles are also in back issues of Sport Aviation, around 2005.
Hope this helps.
Jim & Heather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472356#472356
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: aileron balancing |
Rowland, Much sense from Jim as usual, although I am not 100% clear what
he means by colour sanding. I suspect however it is the same process
used for wrt & dry sanding down of gel coat, which suggests a reasonable
alternative to my more drastic suggestion of sanding it all off- that is
put a slurry of very dilute coloured cellulose paint. Sand with wet &
dry (actually wet of course!) 600 grit, until all the coloured paint has
gone, which has got you down to the low spots of the original paint. You
then repeat the process with 1200 grit and finally with 2000 grit. If
you can stoach that you will have a perfect finish and may well find you
have shed half or more of that weight gain. There are a few more
wrinkles to the sanding and I will happily discuss on phone if you want
to go down that path.
Regards, David (GXSDJ)
On 2017-08-30 16:33, h&jeuropa wrote:
>
> Rowland,
>
> We added an aileron trim motor in the stbd aileron. This made it quite heavy
and we used tungsten carbide from McMaster to achieve balance.
>
> BTW we tried lead balls embedded in epoxy but we could not get the density of
solid lead. There is a lot of open space between spheres!
>
> The increase in weight (20%-25%) from filling, profiling and paint seems excessive.
Perhaps you can color sand much of it off.
>
> We color sanded all our painted surfaces. There is good information on the 3M website about doing this and we used 3M products. There also is a good book available from EAA, https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-shop/media/aviation-books/2256137300000__how-to-paint-your-own-airplane [1] The articles are also in back issues of Sport Aviation, around 2005.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jim & Heather
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472356#472356 [2]
>
Links:
------
[1]
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-shop/media/aviation-books/2256137300000__how-to-paint-your-own-airplane
[2] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472356#472356
[3] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[4] http://forums.matronics.com
[5] http://wiki.matronics.com
[6] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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